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Thread: The Little Birdy has whispered yet again.......

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    You are clueless about FDNY's warranty requirements, and what FDNY can (and will) do to one rig in that warranty period.......
    Actually I have pretty good idea of what Ferrera was thinking, as I had an interesting discussion with the owner regarding the contract over dinner at FDIC.

    They fully understand what the warranty will entail based on the haz-mat, high-pressure pumps, Collapse and special service units they have been selling them, but they still expect to make a reasonable profit. .... And yes, they also understand that these units see less street time then the ladders, and that has been factored into the price as well.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


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    A 60 engine build order over three years will be NO MEANS stretch the capability of KME's plants. At one point the LA orders required an every other engine start sequence. This order will only need a start every other week. Stainless does require some additional built time, but should not be a problem. As for opting out of a purchase time frame,"Because the big order is running out does not make sense. Just the learning curve for a particular model improves the quality and build methods as the project progresses. Providing that engineering does not try to cut corners, each successive engine should be a little better than its sisters.

  3. #203
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    Caught wind of a rumor going around that KME has failed to deliver a "prototype" to FDNY and that as a result, FDNY has "cut back" the order. I whistled to Little Birdy, who kicked the magic 8-ball awake. Magic 8-ball said "There is NO requirement to deliver a prototype. None. Zero. Nichts. Nadda. Nyet. Nein. Negative." Magic 8-ball also said "The official order for 91 units was placed last month. First delivery should be in late 2013."
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Anyone know how wide the new KME cabs will be for the FDNY pumper contract 96", 99' or 100" ?

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    Default Featherless Birds

    Seems to be alot of birds flying around with no wings and just a lot of tweeting going on. Failure to deliver prototype - false. You do not build prototypes without an order and PO, which just happened the 10th of January, 2013. 96" wide cabs with ISX engines- true. Long 4 door cabs (LFD)- true. Split stainless tilt cabs- true. Bodies pretty well identical to past- true. Normal 5 year warranty- yes. Add-On contract valid through 2015- True. Now this bird needs to fly South, it's winter.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by firetruckguy2 View Post
    Seems to be alot of birds flying around with no wings and just a lot of tweeting going on. Failure to deliver prototype - false. You do not build prototypes without an order and PO, which just happened the 10th of January, 2013. 96" wide cabs with ISX engines- true. Long 4 door cabs (LFD)- true. Split stainless tilt cabs- true. Bodies pretty well identical to past- true. Normal 5 year warranty- yes. Add-On contract valid through 2015- True. Now this bird needs to fly South, it's winter.
    Other than the specific cab info, isnt that what I said?
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    Pretttty close - with one little glitch - which doesn't mean crap. Filled in a few blanks and added a few feathers to it for you!! Stay safe brother!!

  8. #208
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    I hadn't realized this topic was a contest of one upmanship.
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  9. #209
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    Has KME ever built a split-tilt cab before ? If so for what department!

  10. #210
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    never mind...............
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 01-29-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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    To my knowledge KME has not built a “so called” split tilt cab. BUT – in reality, I think several companies build units that fall with this category, including Sutphen, Seagrave, Pierce, Spartan, Ferrara and KME. All of them build two door tilt cabs for several different applications, yet most frequently applied to heavy rescues. The two door tilts really took hold where people were using Mack MC/MR cabs and wanted a replacement to have a mere two door heavy duty cab assembly in heavy rescue applications.

    If you look at the FDNY Design in heavy rescues and a few other, it’s a 2 door tilt cab with a crew module. I am attaching a newer Pierce model as I am speaking of in a rescue application. It’s along the lines of what FDNY did on the older heavy rescues with HME chassis’s. Another way it was used is as I see E-One has just done on the newest NYPD ESU units in a two door design. So, in reality as it applies to the KME - KME builds this design and has done several units in California that I know of with the split tilt and crew areas. As far as it applies to FDNY and the “exact” NY design, no they have not built this model as an "integrated" 2 door tilt cab, but we aren't talking rocket science here.

    Splits tilts seems to become pretty popular back in the early 90’s with the Duplex Vanguard, Pierce Lance and a few others, as Departments wanted easier engine access with engine forward designs. If any one remembers, the first Spartan Gladiator engine forward cabs had this crazyyyyy idea of rolling the engine out the front of the truck for service – YIKES!!! I think it was an evolution between the time the first engine forward models came out and manufacturers then designed a FULL tilt cab. Once the full tilt cabs came out, the split tilts all but went away in “numbers” and manufacturers seemed to stray away investing in split designs.

    The real issue with full tilts cabs for FDNY and some others was twofold; The full tilt takes a ceiling height of sometimes nearly 20’ high to get all the way up and also, it is a HUGE HUGE HUGE hunk of iron to tilt on a regular basis!! I personally believe NY uses split tilts to allow easy access and also low tilt height in low stations and also avoid having to tilt a cab with piles of equipment loose in the crew areas.

    Regardless, as Ferrara and many others have had to do is re-design the back wall area to seal the front and rear tilt cab. I am sure that KME or any other manufacturer is fully capable of redesigning the split into the cab, as it is the same as they are doing on rescues. If you look at the link attached, you can see it as Pierce does and shows what I am speaking of. I do know the KME rigs for FDNY will be the “severe service” model that KME builds for many heavy run departments such as LA and Philly.

    Short answer to the split tilt question, NO. Long answer, I think several companies including KME can build a split tilt as FDNY utilizes.

    Stay safe!

    http://www.piercemfg.com/en/experien...epartment.aspx

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    http://www.piercemfg.com/en/experien...epartment.aspx

    A 37' long engine / ambulance with a 236" wheelbase and an 8' high hosebed. Yikes! !

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by FD1976 View Post
    http://www.piercemfg.com/en/experien...epartment.aspx

    A 37' long engine / ambulance with a 236" wheelbase and an 8' high hosebed. Yikes! !
    Yup, it looks like in an effort to do everything it won't do anything well.
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    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
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    Default Dream it and Someone will build it - Type of thinking!! Another Momument!!

    LOL to FD1976!! A 236" wheelbase ambulance!!! Ya can't even make some of this stuff up!! Proves once again, manufacturers must really need business and never want to say no! I hope the link was not confused with FDNY, as I have prints from the old rigs built by Ferrara at around 185” wheelbases and I hear the KME’s will be almost identical.

    It never ceases to amaze me what kind of money gets spent on some WILDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD stuff - even by departments with huge budgets!! Seems as though the continued spending of taxpayer’s money is easy when there is no accountability. Some rigs break all boundaries of common sense, sound engineering, nor limit on the American Express Black Card!! Oh wait – one last thing - there is the option to buy the parachute to exit the hosbed safely!! 

    I think what amazes me even more is the amount of money spent in places where run volumes are EXTREMELY low. I see pumpers on here being bought by departments running 100-200-300 calls TOTAL annually - when they have 6-7-8-even 10 structure fires a year!! They use foam once or twice a year, but bought a $25,000 foam system and what the hell, let's throw in that "standard and free" independent front suspension!! LOL!! These departments I see spending $500-$600-$700,000 for a rocket ship CUSTOM pumper, when a $300,000 model would do all they REALLY need for those 5-10 REAL structure fires a year - IF we put away the testosterone, 10' tall & bullet proof posturing and Maltese gorilla attitude, we might realize that there is a lot of money being wasted!!! What the heck, I guess times are not as bad as everyone tries to say everywhere - but budgets in my area are getting tighter and tighter.

    I think the FDNY bid is an example of the times though. We must be responsible in bidding units in a competitive scenario. Surely FDNY likes their Seagraves and it would be very "comfortable", “easy” and “nice” to buy more - BUT - today, everyone MUST be fiscally responsible as buyers and even suppliers. FDNY CANNOT justify the HUGE disparity in costing to a Seagrave or even a Ferarra at $100,000 a copy over the KME bid. Actually - how can Seagrave be upset??

    Seagrave prices are OUT OF CONTROL - not only in FDNY, but across the country from what I've seen from friends in other departments, with the normally $75-$100,000 more on any unit!! I would HATE to Seagrave go away in entirety, it would be a terrible shame. They are a huge part of fire truck history!! As far as FDNY is concerned - Even if they only get the first batch of KME's with "issues" - they are no money behind in all reality. You can do A LOTTTTTTT of repairs for the difference of money on their bid spread of $200,000 a copy and honestly? Although I am a believer the KME's will be fine in FDNY - It's going to be KME's money if the trucks do not perform, not FDNY's!! So what has FDNY got to lose??

    ANYONE buying trucks off single bids today is crazy - BUT - there are those with brand tattoo’s on their backsides, willing to put their job and reputations on line defending their brand choices and pay REDICULOUS money for a particular logo in the grill. My opinion? TOTALLY irresponsible - regardless of ANY brand someone is buying!! INSANE!!
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  15. #215
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    Do you think that Seagrave charges $ 75,000 - $ 100,000 more for there fire trucks because they run a "union shop" and it costs more to operate than a business in a "right to work state" like in the southern USA, and make some profit on there products ?

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    Default Let's not go there!

    Not touching a Union discussion with a 10', non-conductive, hook!!! But - should the question be reworded - it may be "easier" or I might even be able to offer an "opinion" to the question - without opening Pandora's box.

    From a "hunch" standpoint only I might have an "opinion", as, while I have been to Seagrave, yet I do not know the internal workings/structure intimately, nor own do I own a Seagrave. I respect what Seagrave has done in the US fire service and respect the products they've built. They surely command respect with some real work horses out there, yet inevitably will not survice when trying to sell at 10-20-30% more than every other brand!!

    Surely all you FWD/Seagrave folks (buffs) could chime in with some "reliable" insight!! I always like to learn and try to stay open minded - have no brand tattoo - yet am concerned Seagrave has a tough road to hoe ahead. In the end, surely there's MANY reasons why companies fail to survive or stay profitable.

    From an end user standpoint, it's humbling to accept that all builders MUST make a profit in order to supply parts service and support (including innovation and engineering advancements) for manyyyyy years to come, after the truck is backed in the door. Surely others can add content to this discussion much better than I.

    As a caveat - Seagrave is NOT the only company I've seen of late having issues controlling their "costs" and failing to remain competitve today, as reported by some brothers around the country. Others have a big challenge ahead contolling costs and satisfying shareholders with what seems to be double digit minimum returns according to their annual reports available on-line. Please chime in you FWD experienced folks.

    Stay safe.

    Ps- Think about Ferrara - they have had A LOT of management and ownership changes, so "maybe" that has an impact on these bid results in FDNY?? They've been building what seems to be a decent product for FDNY from what I have seen at trade shows - Some wild stuff. Surely theres more to the story.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by firetruckguy2 View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me what kind of money gets spent on some WILDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD stuff - even by departments with huge budgets!! Seems as though the continued spending of taxpayer’s money is easy when there is no accountability. Some rigs break all boundaries of common sense, sound engineering, nor limit on the American Express Black Card!! Oh wait – one last thing - there is the option to buy the parachute to exit the hosbed safely!! 

    I think what amazes me even more is the amount of money spent in places where run volumes are EXTREMELY low. I see pumpers on here being bought by departments running 100-200-300 calls TOTAL annually - when they have 6-7-8-even 10 structure fires a year!! They use foam once or twice a year, but bought a $25,000 foam system and what the hell, let's throw in that "standard and free" independent front suspension!! LOL!! These departments I see spending $500-$600-$700,000 for a rocket ship CUSTOM pumper, when a $300,000 model would do all they REALLY need for those 5-10 REAL structure fires a year - IF we put away the testosterone, 10' tall & bullet proof posturing and Maltese gorilla attitude, we might realize that there is a lot of money being wasted!!! What the heck, I guess times are not as bad as everyone tries to say everywhere - but budgets in my area are getting tighter and tighter.

    ANYONE buying trucks off single bids today is crazy - BUT - there are those with brand tattoo’s on their backsides, willing to put their job and reputations on line defending their brand choices and pay REDICULOUS money for a particular logo in the grill. My opinion? TOTALLY irresponsible - regardless of ANY brand someone is buying!! INSANE!!
    Hey be careful- the Apple(ton) flavor kool-aid drinkers will come out of the woodwork and scratch your eyes out and hit you with their purses if you keep talking like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by firetruckguy2 View Post
    Surely all you FWD/Seagrave folks (buffs) could chime in with some "reliable" insight!!
    The price differences have been discussed in here at length previously and it has been alleged that Seagrave's higher price-per-unit was due to the fact that they have first hand knowledge of what it costs to maintain one bumper to bumper for 5 years. By the way I am an FWD buff only. I like Seagrave, but the screen name has no implied love or fondness of Seagrave. FWD yes. If I were buying a firetruck tomorrow it would be a Mack, so I guess its a good thing that I'm not buying a firetruck tomorrow.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 01-30-2013 at 10:48 PM.
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    One wonders if Seagrave Corp. really is that interested in being competitive. maybe they like less volume and fewer units? Whatever the case they seem to be at the very high end of the bid process. Hope they can survive.

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    If Mack trucks were to build a new 2013 CF pumper there would be a waiting list of about 3 years, because the plant could not keep up with the sales . They should design and build a cab foward chassis for the fire service , something like the trash hauling chassis with four doors !
    Last edited by Woodbridge; 01-31-2013 at 07:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    If Mack trucks were to build a new 2013 CF pumper there would be a waiting list of about 3 years, because the plant could not keep up with the sales . They should design and build a cab foward chassis for the fire service , something like the trash hauling chassis with four doors !
    Agreed. Unfortunately however the bean counters that eat those funky meatballs with the white sauce dont see how investing millions in R & D & E would reap profit with minimal units sold per year.....precisely why they got out of the fire business. We all want the product but we dont buy enough of it for them to want to make it. Besides you have to wonder if the quality and workmanship of a 2013 Mack would be the same as a 1980 Mack........So we'll have to settle for commercial chassis with someone else's body.
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