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  1. #1
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    Default Whites turned away

    Fanning racial fires
    Whites: Black FDNY group barred us
    By C.J. SULLIVAN and DAN MANGAN
    Last Updated: 5:23 AM, March 1, 2012
    Posted: 12:57 AM, March 1, 2012



    A tutorial workshop for the upcoming FDNY entrance exam turned raucous last night when the organization that represents black firefighters — which was hosting the Queens event — turned away whites who wanted to attend.
    “This is absurd,” fumed Rob, a 21-year-old who was one of about 60 whites refused entry by the Vulcan Society at MS 72 in Jamaica and whose angry reaction drew 30 NYPD cops and school safety officers.
    “My dad [a firefighter] was killed on 9/11. I always wanted to be FDNY,” said Rob, who did not give his last name, as about 110 black men received a test prep inside.

    BYRON SMITH
    TEMPERS FLARE: A union rep last night tries to calm a group of men who say they were not admitted to an FDNY test prep by the Vulcan Society.

    But a Vulcan volunteer said he was told to admit people only if they had received a confirmation e-mail from the society, and that the decision had nothing to do with race.
    “I wanted everyone to get in, but we don’t have the resources for the amount of people who showed up,” he said. “I understand guys were upset, but then they got a little rowdy.’’
    The Vulcan Society and the US Justice Department recently won a lawsuit against the city and the FDNY after a federal judge ruled the department’s hiring practices were discriminatory, and ordered reforms.
    Paul Mannix, a deputy FDNY chief who is president of Merit Matters, which opposes the reforms as a watering-down of standards, said that in two earlier workshops this week, the Vulcan Society admitted whites.
    “It’s incredible in this day and age” that whites were barred last night, said Mannix, who called the Vulcans’ explanation “disingenuous.’’
    dan.mangan@nypost.com


    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/q...#ixzz1nsLUatFo


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    Default

    That's a nice 14th Amendment violation right there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Florida reef View Post
    That's a nice 14th Amendment violation right there.
    Probably not -- even assuming that the claim about admitting people who received email confirmations isn't true.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    They're a private group. Your constitutional argument doesn't work.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    They're a private group. Your constitutional argument doesn't work.
    They may be a private group, but they are working and recruiting for a public entity.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    They're a private group. Your constitutional argument doesn't work.
    Just an honest question here, no flaming......since they were holding the event at a public middle school, aren't they required by law to admit anyone? (putting aside the email/space available argument....)

    If they wanted to specify who could/could not attend, wouldnt they have to hold their event on private property?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Just an honest question here, no flaming......since they were holding the event at a public middle school, aren't they required by law to admit anyone? (putting aside the email/space available argument....)

    If they wanted to specify who could/could not attend, wouldnt they have to hold their event on private property?
    Short answer? No. If they had a limited capacity and accepted reservations for that number why should they admit anyone else?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Short answer? No. If they had a limited capacity and accepted reservations for that number why should they admit anyone else?
    RE-Phrase of the question: Since they were holding their event in a public school, are they allowed to discriminate?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    They're a private group. Your constitutional argument doesn't work.
    Probably a violation of NY State law... if race was the reason to not admit folks.

    I'm guessing, as I don't know NY State law.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Unless it was sponsored by the public school....they probably can.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    RE-Phrase of the question: Since they were holding their event in a public school, are they allowed to discriminate?
    Short answer again? Yes. Discrimination per se is not illegal; only discrimination based on a handful of protected categories. "People who don't have confirmed reservations" are not a protected class.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    There was never any list. Theres a few videos on youtube; target demographics, "welcome, cmon in," non-target demographics "youre not on the list." Having the cops disperse the majority of the crowd, while grabbing select late arriving individuals to be snuck in.

    Before long there was a room full of one group, and an apparently different group getting the doors shut in their faces. Questions of "wheres this list?" and "How do I get on the list?" were met with "I dont know."

    An FDNY fraternal organization (extension of the workplace) with members in uniform (either in violation of the jobs regs, or with permission of the CoD) dividing a group of applicants based on skin tone, keeping one half in and kicking the other half out... Im no expert civil rights attorney, but it sounds like some of those guys might have a legitimate gripe.
    To Persist is to Conquer.

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    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Short answer again? Yes. Discrimination per se is not illegal; only discrimination based on a handful of protected categories. "People who don't have confirmed reservations" are not a protected class.
    The naivety is cute.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Unless it was sponsored by the public school....they probably can.
    Nope, use of public space = must abide by laws.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Nope, use of public space = must abide by laws.

    And the public space doesnt even matter for NYC purposes, recruitment, training, testing, are all extensions of the workplace and covered under those laws.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    And the public space doesnt even matter for NYC purposes, recruitment, training, testing, are all extensions of the workplace and covered under those laws.
    Was this a city run/taught course sponsored by the Vulcans?

    The reports are all a little confusing.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  17. #17
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Was this a city run/taught course sponsored by the Vulcans?

    The reports are all a little confusing.
    Its a prep course run by the vulcans, which wasnt invite only until a certain group said the vulcans had the best course, and that everyone should attend. But it was held by members representing the FDNY (in uniform), at a public facility, and open to current and prospective members of the FDNY, which is all covered under NYC EEO policy.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Ah firehouse lawyers....

    A. The announcement was publicly available...solicited to all sorts of persons and was displayed in numerous firehouses as per Vulcan President Coombs who also teaches EEO classes to the members that everyone gets to enjoy annually....this class is an extension of the workplace and is subject to all city and NY state anti-discrimination laws.

    B. The persons they are tutoring are not members of the Vulcan society nor could they be. They are not yet members of the Department....they are Civilians...aka members of the public.

    C. The officer in the video is wearing the Dress uniform shirt and collar insignia of a Lieutenant in the FDNY...take a guess how many problems that raises? (He'll get a pass as our EEO office is hopelessly biased and bigoted but I digress)

    D. It is not yet clear if any public money from the recruitment unit or other city council appropriated funds was used for this or similar events. Guess what accepting funds from government for any of your "outreach" programs results in? Since money is Fungible just about anything you do falls under government anti-discrimination laws.

    Anyone care to disagree or advocate for this bigotry displayed by the Vulcan Society (and I suppose the FDNY who was represented by an officer in uniform)?


    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-04-2012 at 09:56 PM.

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    I'm amazed at how cavalier everyone is about racism. Says alot about their character.

    FTM-PTB

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    This should turn into a nice little sheetstorm. I have to agree with that FFFred said. I'd also add in that this seems to be an organization that the FDNY recognizes and even if they don't give them money, they appear to have the blessing to recruit on behalf of the FDNY. I bet there is something establishing an offical relationship between FDNY and the Vulcan's for recruitment and these prep classes.

    It'll be interesting the ripples this creates. If those turned away push this, which they should, it could really muck up the entire hiring process.

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