1. #1
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    Default Curious question to decision makers

    Having come from suppression and into prevention I was told I was committing career suicide; that if I ever wanted to advance in the fire service going into prevention would be a show stopper.

    In coming up with my peers, and people I have met while traveling and doing presentations, I have seen this come to fruition many times (not every time) where they have competed for upper management positions to be passed over for less experienced people (in service, certifications, awards, accomplishments), and in more than a few occasions, being told that their "resumes' were very impressive - but their background is in prevention."

    Why is this so? Is this not hurting the fire service as we fall behind others in our fire prevention approach?

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    Unfortunatetly, this is way too true.

    This is completely different than Europe and Asia where spending time in fire prevention is sa requirement to advancement in the fire service. This, in and of itself, reflects why prevention is viewed as it is in the fire service in this country.

    As far as the reasons, I suspect that it is because in the US, prevention is used as a dumping ground by many departments to put the personnel that can't cut it on the street, even though they have no desire to work in prevention, and lack both the skills and the training to do so effectivly. It is also a common practice to put leaders into prevention who either have demonstrtated they can't lead, don't want to lead, and in many cases, don't give a damn about doing the job, but are put there anywhere because the admin feels they are owed a Chief's position, and the leadership feels that by putting them in prevention they will limit the damage they likely will do to the department.
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    Daniel, I will give you my perspective as an every day street firefighter: It would be extremely tough to have faith in the incident commander and an event when their experience is based on passing out pencils and teaching 2nd graders how not to start themselves on fire.
    Now in a very large department in where they have a Fire Chief and a Fire Commissioner, maybe it works batter, as the commissioners' position is definitely more politics than street. I can see where a savvy prevention person would be a good fit for that.
    But bottom line, to know what the needs are, and what drives the suppression side, you need to cut your teeth in the trenches and earn the respect of the rank and file. That takes experience on the fire ground, takes the bumpy road of going through the command ranks. Much like the Commandant of the Marine Corps probably isn't coming from the IT department.
    Just my take.
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    May depend on the department you are in

    sometimes prevention is required because that is where the promotion is located

    sometimes you are required to go in for a number of years

    yes it is good to be there, to see the other side, but yes if you are looking at moving on up you should get back on shift at some point, so you can get the training and experience for the next higher grade

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    I've seen it go both ways. I know of one large metro department nearby where their last two fire chiefs have been promoted from the fire marshal's position. But I also have a division chief in my current department (who was promoted long before I was hired) that promoted out of the fire marshal's position, where he had spent his entire career until that point. He essentially had no line experience. As a result, he has absolutely zero respect from the department and he likely never will. It's unfortunate because he's an excellent manager with a wealth of knowledge, but nobody will listen to him because of his background and how he came up. I try to help him where I can, but you can't force people to respect someone. It's unfair, but it's the reality in many departments.

    I like what some larger departments do where everyone is required to spend a certain amount of time in prevention. I know of one department where the entire recruit class has to spend their first year in prevention before they ever go to the floor. Most of us don't have that luxury.

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    While fully appreciating your points, there are a few issues here to your argument:

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    It would be extremely tough to have faith in the incident commander and an event when their experience is based on passing out pencils and teaching 2nd graders how not to start themselves on fire.
    Fire prevention is WAY more than simply passing out pencils and teaching 2nd graders how not to set themselves on fire. That is a VERY narrow view of the fire service as a whole.

    Who knows more about a buildings construction, design, available fire suppression systems, apparatus capability (which is needed to support development requirements), building layouts, hazards in the building, locations of important and pertinent equipment (electrical rooms, exits, elevators), knowledge of fire resistive materials being used - than the person who inspects the buildings from top to bottom, and/or reviewed and approved the plans of the building.

    There are MANY departments where your inspectors know more about the buildings, water supply, streets, and hazards than the station captains (your ICs you have faith in) themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    you need to cut your teeth in the trenches and earn the respect of the rank and file. That takes experience on the fire ground, takes the bumpy road of going through the command ranks.
    This is the whole problem is the lack of knowledge and ability given to those in prevention and the "us" vrs "them" and that those in prevention are not members of the "rank and file" and that somehow being on the line is somehow more "bumpy" in today's fire service than those in prevention. No matter where you are in the fire service - for anyone who applies themselves advancement is bumpy and develops strengths and skills that apply universality.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Much like the Commandant of the Marine Corps probably isn't coming from the IT department.
    This is my whole case in point! I am a former Marine and know Commandants come from many occupational fields, but throughout their careers, develop themselves across the spectrum of Marine Corps mantra. How else does a Marine Corps Commandant who has spent his time in the cockpit and commanding air-wings effectively lead and deploy (and earn the respect of) the grunts on the ground who are infantry driven and visa-versa.

    While I understand your views the point here is simple. If an applicant applies for an upper-management position, they have diversified themselves across the spectrum of the fire services disciplines, demonstrated knowledge and ability in fire ground strategy/tactics and command, should be given a fair shake for that promotion and not eliminated from contention due to a full and solid background in prevention.

    Also something to think about. We are going to fewer fires, and the need to compete with other community resources for a share of the public pie increase daily. A new approach to fire service management is needed and a diversified background should be a requirement.

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    Agreed! Highly depends upon the department and promotional requirements. I believe anyone in upper management need to see, and have knowledge, in all sides of their fire department and the fire service. Diversity in your career makes you the best applicant.

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    Excellent insight; and I think that was one of my points here. Just because someone comes from the prevention side, all of a sudden they don't know which was the hose goes and no matter who knowledgeable and capable they may be they will never get that respect. This is sad! Whether you are a suppression person trying to go prevention, of prevention trying to go suppression.

    I've known superior firefighters/officers that others would follow into any hell and can command any emergency scene; but those same firefighters would tremble at the thought that person being in charge of things like budget and salary.

    This is a sickness in the fire service. As stated in your post and others, the best departments require their up and coming personnel to spend time in suppression, prevention, and personnel and maintenance (if the department is that big). As a successful Chief at any level, the more you know about all the disciplines of your department the more effective you are!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Daniel, I will give you my perspective as an every day street firefighter: It would be extremely tough to have faith in the incident commander and an event when their experience is based on passing out pencils and teaching 2nd graders how not to start themselves on fire.
    Now in a very large department in where they have a Fire Chief and a Fire Commissioner, maybe it works batter, as the commissioners' position is definitely more politics than street. I can see where a savvy prevention person would be a good fit for that.

    But bottom line, to know what the needs are, and what drives the suppression side, you need to cut your teeth in the trenches and earn the respect of the rank and file. That takes experience on the fire ground, takes the bumpy road of going through the command ranks. Much like the Commandant of the Marine Corps probably isn't coming from the IT department.
    Just my take.
    The fact that you describe a public educator as somebody "who passes out pencils and teaches 2nd graders not to catch themselves on fire" is part of the problem.

    As a public educator or inspector, you should learn what causes fires, and what prevents them. You should learn the value, and shorcomings of detection and supression systems as you need to be able to talk intelligently about them to the public, builders and public officials. You should develop an awareness of how building construction and building condition impacts fires, if you truly study the fires you are tasked to preventYou should learn how people react to a fire, which will assist you greatly in thinking ahead about how the occupants in a building will react, which allows you to build that into your response plan as an IC.

    And just as importantly, as apublic educator, you should learn how to evaluate data and develop effective presentations, or entire programs, including identifying class goals and class content that will convey your message and teach skills as well as develop new behaviors.

    These are all skills that are readily transferrable to the suppression side. I don't think anyone here is suggesting you pull somebody out of prevention with no suppression experience and promiote them. What we are suggesting is what the Europeans have learned, which is that somebody being seasoned as a Chief officer needs to spend time not only in prevention to learn about delivering prevention, but also to tune the skills above that will be used in thier administrative command role.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact that you describe a public educator as somebody "who passes out pencils and teaches 2nd graders not to catch themselves on fire" is part of the problem.

    As a public educator or inspector, you should learn what causes fires, and what prevents them. You should learn the value, and shorcomings of detection and supression systems as you need to be able to talk intelligently about them to the public, builders and public officials. You should develop an awareness of how building construction and building condition impacts fires, if you truly study the fires you are tasked to preventYou should learn how people react to a fire, which will assist you greatly in thinking ahead about how the occupants in a building will react, which allows you to build that into your response plan as an IC.

    And just as importantly, as apublic educator, you should learn how to evaluate data and develop effective presentations, or entire programs, including identifying class goals and class content that will convey your message and teach skills as well as develop new behaviors.

    These are all skills that are readily transferrable to the suppression side. I don't think anyone here is suggesting you pull somebody out of prevention with no suppression experience and promiote them. What we are suggesting is what the Europeans have learned, which is that somebody being seasoned as a Chief officer needs to spend time not only in prevention to learn about delivering prevention, but also to tune the skills above that will be used in thier administrative command role.
    Interesting...

    As a firefighter who has risen through the ranks and served as the PEO as well as the PIO and everything in between, allow me to give my viewpoint..


    Some "public educators" are just as SPFD Rum described. Someone has to to do it, it is usually assigned to someone who has young children as their administrators feel that they can "relate" or as a punishment detail for those FD members who are royal screw ups.

    Many of the thing that you say are actually covered in the basic firefighter training program, aka Firefighter 1-2 and reinforced in daily training. The biggest causes of fires are as follows..

    Men, women, children, ignorance, stupidity, hatred and greed.

    There are many talented people on the fire department, for example, a firefighter who has contractor's licenses in the trades will know far more about building construction than an inspector, an electrician will know more about wiring of home fire alarm systems and in some cases commercial systems than an inspector, some plumbers also have sprinkler experience.

    When someone comes in with stamped plans for fire detection and supression systems that have been designed by engineers in their respective fields who have more experience than you do, are you really going to pull their plan apart device by device and tell them that they are wrong? The role of the inspector is to make sure the system works as designed and maintained as per the NFPA standard that covers that design at the time of commissioning.

    We already know how people will react in fires, we have hundreds of years in human experience and tragedy to tell us that, and all the public fire education in the world hasn't changed that one bit, either in the USA, Europe, Japan, China and every other industrialized nation on earth. You can talk about "changing behaviors", and people will react favorably in fire drills under non fire conditions. Put smoke and fire in the equation, it is "every man for himself"... survival is part of human nature. The only exception is the parent/spouse/child relationship.

    I have seen the results of "fire prevention people" thrust in the command situation... some do well, the majority... not so much.

    There are far too many "pencil pushers" and "politically connected" fire chiefs and other administrators making decisions who "talk the talk" but have never "walked the walk".
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Do your job to the best of your ability no matter the title or job description and you will continue to rise to the top. I have just been asked to start an IT committee from scratch... I have very limited knowledge about computers other than what I have received from having a brother who is a computer freak. This apparently has qualified me for the position. I have accepted the challenge and plan on using it to further my career in the fire service.

    To me IT is a thousand times the career killer than Prevention. But we shall see...

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    Default Obviously!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Interesting...

    As a firefighter who has risen through the ranks and served as the PEO as well as the PIO and everything in between, allow me to give my viewpoint..


    Some "public educators" are just as SPFD Rum described. Someone has to to do it, it is usually assigned to someone who has young children as their administrators feel that they can "relate" or as a punishment detail for those FD members who are royal screw ups.

    Many of the thing that you say are actually covered in the basic firefighter training program, aka Firefighter 1-2 and reinforced in daily training. The biggest causes of fires are as follows..

    Men, women, children, ignorance, stupidity, hatred and greed.

    There are many talented people on the fire department, for example, a firefighter who has contractor's licenses in the trades will know far more about building construction than an inspector, an electrician will know more about wiring of home fire alarm systems and in some cases commercial systems than an inspector, some plumbers also have sprinkler experience.

    When someone comes in with stamped plans for fire detection and supression systems that have been designed by engineers in their respective fields who have more experience than you do, are you really going to pull their plan apart device by device and tell them that they are wrong? The role of the inspector is to make sure the system works as designed and maintained as per the NFPA standard that covers that design at the time of commissioning.

    We already know how people will react in fires, we have hundreds of years in human experience and tragedy to tell us that, and all the public fire education in the world hasn't changed that one bit, either in the USA, Europe, Japan, China and every other industrialized nation on earth. You can talk about "changing behaviors", and people will react favorably in fire drills under non fire conditions. Put smoke and fire in the equation, it is "every man for himself"... survival is part of human nature. The only exception is the parent/spouse/child relationship.

    I have seen the results of "fire prevention people" thrust in the command situation... some do well, the majority... not so much.

    There are far too many "pencil pushers" and "politically connected" fire chiefs and other administrators making decisions who "talk the talk" but have never "walked the walk".
    Very well put! You have GOT to have some years in the job. Agreed across the board! Especially where some educators come from. Fact is rising through the ranks - and doing well - comes with preparation, dedication, commitment; no matter where in the ranks you come from!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderSims View Post
    Do your job to the best of your ability no matter the title or job description and you will continue to rise to the top. I have just been asked to start an IT committee from scratch... I have very limited knowledge about computers other than what I have received from having a brother who is a computer freak. This apparently has qualified me for the position. I have accepted the challenge and plan on using it to further my career in the fire service.

    To me IT is a thousand times the career killer than Prevention. But we shall see...
    As I stated above, if you are committed and dedicated, give 100% and not be afraid to ask questions and seek (and take) advice, you will do well in anything you are tasked with.

    HA! I would rather talk to 100 screaming kids in a closed room than try to figure out why the damn computer screen went blank!!!!! Good luck brother you will do well!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Byrne View Post
    Very well put! You have GOT to have some years in the job. Agreed across the board! Especially where some educators come from. Fact is rising through the ranks - and doing well - comes with preparation, dedication, commitment; no matter where in the ranks you come from!
    How is an inspector coming through the ranks if he or she has stayed in prevention for the last five years for example? The inspector ranks aren't the same ranks as suppression, trying to make it like that defends a position that is impossible to complete.

    You also stated "Who knows more about a buildings construction, design, available fire suppression systems, apparatus capability (which is needed to support development requirements), building layouts, hazards in the building, locations of important and pertinent equipment (electrical rooms, exits, elevators), knowledge of fire resistive materials being used - than the person who inspects the buildings from top to bottom, and/or reviewed and approved the plans of the building.

    I hate to say it like this but knowing a building is great but what tactical expertise does an inspector have that will allow he or she to run a company in a fire attack scenario, search and rescue, truck work, RIT, water supply, or god forbid IC........ You may be able to teach someone to stop drop and roll or look at blue prints but have you ran a multiple alarm fire as a company officer? If not then why in the world should an inspector beat out a suppression officer for a promotion?

    Here is the exact same scenario as you describe reversed. You as a Senior FF C are applying for the deputy fire marshal position and a firefighter that is the same rank but absolutely no prevention experience from suppression comes in and applies and gets the position. Does that sound right?????? Nope, you would feel that he or she was under qualified to lead because you have more experience in your field of the fire service would you not? The fire service is a very big entity but looping everyone into the same boat doesn't work except in large departments that allow for movement from one division or another.

    You sir, have accomplished a lot as a public educator and kudos for you, if you want take the step to suppression then come out to the suppression side and earn you stripes fighting fire and working 24hrs instead of 8-5.....

    In closing you stated "no matter where in the ranks you come from!" and that the Commandant of USMC can be a support mos. To look at this statement from another way for instance if a FD runs both Fire and EMS. But hires paramedics to only staff the buses. Are you advocating that the medic can work ten years on the bus, grab some fire certs from a volunteer department and then since it is the same agency be able to cross over to the engine? In most large cities FDNY for example once you go to the fire side you start over. Just because someone has years with a department and has worked up their specific chain of promotion doesn't mean that they will be effective in another capacity.

    Your analogy to the Commandant is jaded a little, yes officers progress and rise through the ranks yet when looking at Commandants comes from an operational entity whether it is the grunts, artillery, pilots. I researched for ten minutes and of the 32 Commandants I did not find one that was for example a logistics officer from 1979 until 2010 all Commandants had an infantry background. The latest Commandant General Amos is actually the first aviator to hold the billet per wikipedia.

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    So If a department requires a person to go from operations to prevention, say for four years, they should not be able to test for a higher position in operations??

    Because they have not been there in four years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The fact that you describe a public educator as somebody "who passes out pencils and teaches 2nd graders not to catch themselves on fire" is part of the problem.
    It isn't part of the problem when it is true. The majority of Fire Prevention's effort is to justify their existence. Outside of school programs and some basic instruction, they are a drain on resources that could be committed to providing the service that citizens expect when they call 911. I never rolled on a call to a citizen who told me they would rather have a fire prevention inspector.

    Please do us all a favor and stop commenting. It's obvious you and your department are a joke. What's scarier is that your mindset is not unique.
    Last edited by scfire86; 08-08-2012 at 01:18 AM.
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    Fire49, short of very large fd's I have never heard of a mandatory four year stint in prevention. I have seen light duty transfers in prevention for extended times. In ten years or so when I am dictating policy I would say yes the given individual should not promote back to an operational company. The given person chose to make prevention his specialty in the fire service. There is nothing wrong with prevention and if it is the firefighters calling then very well. If the firefighter wanted to promote to Captain for instance he or she should do it with in the prevention side of the house. It is a way to scape goat putting in the time on the apparatus. At the very least if again I was making policy there would be an extensive competency test that would need passed to cross back over to the engine or ladder. At my dept, even if you were hurt on the job, if you are not on the rig for over six months the firefighter all the way to Battalion Chief in question has to pass a test called the Return to Active Duty Assessment (RADA) for short. Policy changes, national best standards change, fires change (i.e. tactics), equipment changes the list goes on and on. If someone wants to be prevention go for it, but if they want to come back to the rig they need to carry on with the rank that they left at. Your question of if they are forced to stay there for four years, sure they should be able to leave, but my immediate thought of your example is that they didn't try that hard to get out of prevention, surely there was a spot on a rig that come open at some point in the four years that they could have transferred into....... If I was told I was going to be in prevention for four years I would personally start putting applications in to go to another department. I wouldn't want to work somewhere where I was forced to specialize in something that I don't have a passion for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    What's scarier is that your mindset is not unique.
    This is one of the best posts of the thread! Prevention is important, but the list of things stating a defense by the OP about building construction this that and the other is nothing but smoke and mirrors..... Prevention does there thing, but it is not earth shattering, when a confirmed entrapment in a apt building fire comes in and fire marshal 1022 arrives on scene what are they going to do? Code enforce the fire out, inspect ladders up, ensure that the knox box is within standards of IC? No don't justify your existence, prevention and education is great PR but it isn't running calls day in and day out so how can they expect to be given the reigns of a fire department supervising forces of anywhere from 100 to 1200.....

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    Not just prevention but people are put in other positions out of operations, training, end chief, special teams, etc, that they may not be involved in daily operations for a period of time

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Not just prevention but people are put in other positions out of operations, training, end chief, special teams, etc, that they may not be involved in daily operations for a period of time
    Fire49,
    In my opinion and only mine but training, special teams i.e haz mat, US&R, Fire boat are still staying within specialties of the fire service that are operation oriented. I don't think that we can compare your last examples to fire prevention office. I truly believe that a stint in training will help future command officers, it allows them the oppurtunity to see what is needed to train the members of the department they command. Those examples seem to be reaching.

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    Was trying to give examples that took people out of operations for awhile

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    My department isn't huge (300 persons, population 200K + 100K in the day) but I don't think you can move toward the top of these organizations much anymore without a great deal of time in non-response positions. (I think that in very large departments that you could advance quite a way in response only positions).

    There is just too much going on to learn everything in between calls & days off. The senior chiefs and staff of medium-small departments like mine are involved in an unbelievable array of financials, projects, incidents, things, bhah, blah, blah. An operations only guy may make BC, but probably won't go further.

    It wasn't always like that. It used to be a fireman's-fireman's department, but the demands of the citizens and city hall started driving the ship and we had to adjust. If we hadn't, they would've appointed civilian leadership as the did at the Police Department and we, the FF's would've lost any input in the process.

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