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Thread: Sorta What I have Been Thinkin'

  1. #241
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Just like most cops and civilians.
    Yes, and there are many posters on here who would chastise them for doing so.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?


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    Obviously, if exterior personnel chose to operate beyond their scope of training, there likely may be consequences.

    There would also likely be workman's compensation issues if they were injured as they operating without interior training, and they may end up not being covered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Obviously, if exterior personnel chose to operate beyond their scope of training, there likely may be consequences.

    There would also likely be workman's compensation issues if they were injured as they operating without interior training, and they may end up not being covered.
    This is the only intelligent thing you have posted in this entire thread, and it echos my point. The cops and the civilians aren't my concern if they get killed (from an administrative point of view). The guy who went outside his scope of training, even if it was with the best of intentions, is.
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  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    The cops and the civilians aren't my concern if they get killed (from an administrative point of view). The guy who went outside his scope of training, even if it was with the best of intentions, is.
    Sounds like this would be a good mission statement.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    I think that in rural and even suburban America, that most citizens realize that there is a mix of talent, age and abilities in a volunteer fire department.

    Your assumption is that they think every single firefighter can do 1 and 2 above. I disagree. I maintain that their belief is that the Fire Department can do that, not all the individuals....
    Re-read what I wrote because I wasn't assuming they think every firefighter can do those two things. I said when their house is on fire, they EXPECT them to be able to do those two things when they show up.

    If the FD shows up with sufficient personnel to accomplish those two things plus a bunch of support personnel, then meeting that expectation shouldn't be an issue. If you show up with a bunch of support personnel and an insufficient number of personnel able to accomplish those two tasks (assuming both need to be performed) and fail to meet that expectation, it's highly likely that there will be an issue.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    FFI, IMO, is generic program designed to address general fire service skills in a general way, and honestly, it works well as a general guideline but I find that it simply is far too generic.
    Right, that's the point of the FF1 curriculum and certification - it's generic, basic entry level training that ALL firefighters should have. It's the foundation upon which each department builds as they teach their new members all of the local level required information and skills.


    Guess what.. I understand your point.

    And point above applies to career and volunteers ... I don't support standardized training requirements for either. Entry-level training should be designed by the department - career or volunteer - based on local needs, occupancies, resources and operations.
    So then.......

    1) You support having a volunteer Paramedic trained to a different (lower) standard than a career Paramedic, but still be allowed to function the same?

    2) You support having a volunteer firefighter be trained to a different (lower) standard than a career firefighter (even if in the same department), but still be allowed to function the same?

    In other words career departments A, B and C should be able to design their academies and entry-level curriculum around local needs, occupancies, resources and operations the same as combo departments D and E and volunteer departments F, G, H and I.

    There was a day when training officers designed local training programs based on departmental needs, not a book that is way overpriced. I miss those days, and frankly, I think a local training officer can do a better job of identifying what a firefighter in his/her department needs to be trained on far better than than the folks that design the FFI curriculum.
    Newsflash, training officers can still design their in-house training based on departmental needs. If they are doing their job properly they will and they will also ensure that their personnel have a proper foundation to build upon.


    As usual we have gotten off-track. Many departments need exterior members to operate, and what they are required to do will vary from department to department based on local needs and operations. Those standards for a firefighter - interior or exterior - should be department, not NFPA driven.
    Well, the topic of this thread is about the creation of a certification for the exterior/support member of the FD. That means somebody other than each individual FD has to establish a standard curriculum and testing process in order for that certification to exist.

    If your department needs to exceed that standard, then by all means do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The answer is simple, as I see it ......Exterior fire operations not requiring SCBA as defined by the FFI ciriculum.
    So what does that leave since many of the exterior tasks may in fact need to be performed while wearing an SCBA?

    So the answer would be, in the case of standpipes, no, as it is not a FFI skill.
    Hmmmm, standpipes aren't a FF1 skill you say? Funny, that was a skill station at my FF1 test.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Obviously, if exterior personnel chose to operate beyond their scope of training, there likely may be consequences.

    There would also likely be workman's compensation issues if they were injured as they operating without interior training, and they may end up not being covered.
    I think there would likely be less of a WC issue than you think in that situation, at least in my state. Typically, you are covered for a work place injury unless the injury is the result of "horseplay". I would think trying to save a trapped fire victim doesn't fall into that category.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    So what does that leave since many of the exterior tasks may in fact need to be performed while wearing an SCBA?

    The primary audience, IMO, of this certification would be personnel who wanted to operate as exterior firefighters without SCBA. If somebody wanted to go a little farther and operate as an exterior firefighter with exterior SCBA capabilities, fine, but I would see that as beyond the scope of the certification, and it could be taught at the department-level post-certification.

    Hmmmm, standpipes aren't a FF1 skill you say? Funny, that was a skill station at my FF1 test.
    I'll check but I'm pretty sure standpipes is a FFII skill as we are teaching a FFI class right now and it's not in the class cirriculum, which was taken from the FFI text.
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  10. #250
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    ...
    Hmmmm, standpipes aren't a FF1 skill you say? Funny, that was a skill station at my FF1 test.
    Not part of NJ's FF1 curriculum. There is a picture of one in the book though...
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Right, that's the point of the FF1 curriculum and certification - it's generic, basic entry level training that ALL firefighters should have. It's the foundation upon which each department builds as they teach their new members all of the local level required information and skills.

    And I don't beleive that there is a nationwide generic skill set. The basic skill set for my personnel in my combo department is different from the neighboring city. And the basic skill set my personnel need on my volunteer department is different from the skill set on my combo department.

    And the basic skills set in needed in the northeast is defiantly different than the basic skill set a new member needs in northwest LA.

    Sorry, unlike EMS where there is a basic skill set that is applicable throughout the country, there is no such animal in firefighting.



    So then.......

    1) You support having a volunteer Paramedic trained to a different (lower) standard than a career Paramedic, but still be allowed to function the same?

    2) You support having a volunteer firefighter be trained to a different (lower) standard than a career firefighter (even if in the same department), but still be allowed to function the same?
    [COLOR="#FF0000"]
    The basic problem here is that i recognize two things ... Hazard and Time. As a general rule, career members protect much larger and more diverse areas requiring a greater variety and often a higher level of basic skills than volunteer districts. Yes there are exceptions, but last I looked out my window I didn't see any 20-plus story hotels and office buildings in any combo or volunteer fire districts in this area, yet I see them in the two cities. It's the same with large malls and large factories. these building do require a higher level of training.

    As far as the time issue, again, to put personnel that train on their own time in addition to full-time (and often part-time) employment on the same plane with personnel whose full-time job is firefighting are trained as such at both the academy, and then at the station level while on duty is unrealistic.

    In my combo department, the career members are required to have FFI before being eligable for hire. FFI is not required for volunteers. All career personnel have FFII. Most have Driver/Operator, Instructor, Officer and specialized rescue or public education/inspection certs dependent on their area of expertise and responsibility. Yes they are held to a higher standard because it is their job, and they are also the leaders of the department. And I have no issue with that.

    Volunteers by and large will never have the time to acquire the same level of training as career members, even if they are on the same department. The career members having a higher level of training than the volunteers on a combo department is the norm here, and honestly, it's probably the way it should be.
    [/COLOR]

    Newsflash, training officers can still design their in-house training based on departmental needs. If they are doing their job properly they will and they will also ensure that their personnel have a proper foundation to build upon.


    Well, the topic of this thread is about the creation of a certification for the exterior/support member of the FD. That means somebody other than each individual FD has to establish a standard curriculum and testing process in order for that certification to exist.

    If your department needs to exceed that standard, then by all means do so.
    Bottom line is training needs vary widely based on the department. I do support an EXTERIOR standard because that is a true baseline. There are departments that don't make entry. To them, FFI is not a true baseline.
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  12. #252
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Advancing a hoseline from a standpipe system is on the FF1 written test in the state of Louisiana. It can be found in your essentials book, page 674-675. The only FF2 skills in that section are hose testing.
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  13. #253
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    If you think standpipe operations only happen in 20 story buildings, you probably should not be teaching any firefighters. Standpipe systems can and are often utilized in 1 story, large area structures.

    And advancing hose up a stairway AND CONNECTING TO THE STANDPIPE is part of the FF1 practicals at LSU.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    If you think standpipe operations only happen in 20 story buildings, you probably should not be teaching any firefighters. Standpipe systems can and are often utilized in 1 story, large area structures.

    And advancing hose up a stairway AND CONNECTING TO THE STANDPIPE is part of the FF1 practicals at LSU.
    And where did i say that standpipes are only found in 20-story buildings?

    I am very well aware of that as my previous VFD had several 1 and 2 story wide-rise structures with standpipes. We also had several 3-5 story hotels, college dorms, office and educational buildings and a hospital with standpipes, so on that department, even though it was all-volunteer standpipe operations did receive a lot of training time.

    In my current combo department there isn't a standpipe to be found in the district and it is highly unlikely the city would ever request us to respond mutual to a fire in a building with a standpipe system.

    As far as standpipes on FFI practicals, i have never seen that practical sheet when I requested them or assisted in delivering FFI practicals.

    If your department(s) wishes to teach standpipes operations, that's fine, and frankly that's a local choice. That being said, they have zero relevance in my department(s) and no training on them should also be a local choice.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-06-2012 at 01:31 PM.
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  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as standpipes on FFI practicals, i have never seen that practical sheet when I requested them or assisted in delivering FFI practicals.
    Who else besides me isn't surprised that he hasn't seen practical sheets on this topic?

    Anyone?
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  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And where did i say that standpipes are only found in 20-story buildings?

    I am very well aware of that as my previous VFD had several 1 and 2 story wide-rise structures with standpipes. We also had several 3-5 story hotels, college dorms, office and educational buildings and a hospital with standpipes, so on that department, even though it was all-volunteer standpipe operations did receive a lot of training time.

    In my current combo department there isn't a standpipe to be found in the district and it is highly unlikely the city would ever request us to respond mutual to a fire in a building with a standpipe system.

    As far as standpipes on FFI practicals, i have never seen that practical sheet when I requested them or assisted in delivering FFI practicals.

    If your department(s) wishes to teach standpipes operations, that's fine, and frankly that's a local choice. That being said, they have zero relevance in my department(s) and no training on them should also be a local choice.

    We were discussing standpipes and you replied with this:

    "but last I looked out my window I didn't see any 20-plus story hotels and office buildings in any combo or volunteer fire districts in this area, yet I see them in the two cities. It's the same with large malls and large factories. these building do require a higher level of training."

    Now you can twist it all you want and make it seem like you were discussing these buildings in general but we all know where you went wrong.

    I've given FF1 certifications. Standpipes and their basic operations are on both the written and practical test. FF2 only uses hose testing from that section. It's worked well this entire time, only you seem to have a problem with learning too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    We were discussing standpipes and you replied with this:

    "but last I looked out my window I didn't see any 20-plus story hotels and office buildings in any combo or volunteer fire districts in this area, yet I see them in the two cities. It's the same with large malls and large factories. these building do require a higher level of training."

    Now you can twist it all you want and make it seem like you were discussing these buildings in general but we all know where you went wrong.

    I've given FF1 certifications. Standpipes and their basic operations are on both the written and practical test. FF2 only uses hose testing from that section. It's worked well this entire time, only you seem to have a problem with learning too much.

    Yes, I mentioned 20-story buildings in reference to overall high-rise operations. I also mentioned factories and malls and malls that we do not have and they do.

    It was a general reference to building size, occupant load and construction that is generally not found in my district. I did not mention sprinklers or standpipes, though it is a part of the overall operation in both types of buildings.

    Again, if you beleive that training on standpipes, as an example, is relevant at the firefighter level in that situation, have at it. It's not the case in my combo or volunteer departments.

    And by the way, it's not about learning too much. It's about using the limited time of the volunteers to train them on the most relevant information without demanding too much from them.

    As far as the testing, I'll download a set of practicals for FFI from the lead Evaluator site tomorrow. I may be wrong. We'll see and I'll get back to you.

    It's quite possibly an optional skill that we have chosen not to test on since we have no standpipes in the district.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-06-2012 at 02:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Who else besides me isn't surprised that he hasn't seen practical sheets on this topic?

    Anyone?
    They very well may be an option, based on the needs of the AHJ. Since we don't have any standpipes, there would be no need to use them on the test.

    35' ladder work is also an optional skill that once again, we don't use, as we have no 35' raises in the district.

    There are several skills that rural departments do not use. there are also skills, like water shuttle operations, that urban departments choose not to use in the testing process.
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    If time is such a constraint, why do you think it's better to "fill in the gaps" or start from scratch on all of these skill sets instead of having them learn it right the first time?

    How can you not see how interconnected all of the skill sets are? What harm is it in knowing how to throw a 35' instead of just a 14'? Why do you want to dump all the responsibility of making firefighters to the bigger departments?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    If time is such a constraint, why do you think it's better to "fill in the gaps" or start from scratch on all of these skill sets instead of having them learn it right the first time?

    How can you not see how interconnected all of the skill sets are? What harm is it in knowing how to throw a 35' instead of just a 14'? Why do you want to dump all the responsibility of making firefighters to the bigger departments?
    Yes, some skills are interconnected.

    You have to know how to correctly deploy hose, advance hose and choose the correct fire stream(s) for an effective interior fire attack, as an example.

    ladders are tied to ventilation, etc. etc.

    That being said, if we can make all the raises in our district with a 24' or 28' ladder, why we would we raise a 35"? Do we carry one? Yes, on our tanker. And there are times we take it off and raise it during training, but it's not a basic skill as not once in the 10 years that I have been there, have we ever raised it at an incident.

    Required skill sets are determined by local conditions, resources and manpower, not by what a book or generic cirriculum says. Your basic skill set is likely not mine. My combo department skill set is not the same skill set as my VFD.

    Paid firefighters have one thing volunteers will never have ... Time. It's true with the paid staff at my combo gig. it's true with the urban departments. They simply have the time on the clock that volunteers do not have, so when training volunteers the training needs to be concentrated on the skills they will use tomorrow, not the skills they may use once in the next 5 years. Like it or not there are differing levels of commitment and training must be built around the medium ground, which means, that to motivated members such as you, it appears like that training may be inadequate. Would I like them to be required to make more training? Actually yes, but I understand the consequences of that on both of my departments will be fewer personnel, and especially ion my VFD, that is something that we simply cannot afford.

    If they have extra time, is training them on the lesser-used skills a bad thing? No, not at all, but it's certainly not something that's going to taught in the basic training package because it's all about teaching the most relevant material in a reasonable time frame.

    We are lucky in that my combo department has 6 and my VFD has 3 personnel who are full-time members on neighboring career departments. They receive much of their training through their full-time employment.

    Life is about compromises, and what we train our members to do is one of those compromises.
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