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Thread: Sorta What I have Been Thinkin'

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    They'd be restricted to Bush League
    "Wall to wall, carpet runner or hardwood floor" divisions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Just keep rambling on about things you have no idea about.

    You represent the voice of those who want to keep the volunteer fire service an exclusive club for those rough n' tough enough to do the whole job

    You're right. How wrong of me to expect people to be able to do their jobs. It has nothing to do with rough and tough, just knowledgeable and capable. I know you're just butthurt because admitting I'm right would exclude you from that group. Its ok, not everyone gets to be a firefighters, some turn into people like you.
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    I guess that depends on how you define being able to do the job. A new member certified at the FFI level wouldn't be trained to do the job in our department. No vehicle extrication training. No industrial training. Just the minimum in terms of brush fire training. Nope. Not trained to do what our rookies can do when they complete our basic level training.

    And all of our guys are knowledgeable and capable when in comes to operations associated with our district, which really is all that matters.

    Yup .. You're right.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I posted this in support of a exterior certification, not a standard, to give exterior members the opportunity to obtain a professional certification in the skills they perform on the fireground.
    Uhhhmmm, do you realize that in order to achieve a "certification" in something one must meet an established "standard" for that thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Just keep rambling on about things you have no idea about.
    Like you do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Uhhhmmm, do you realize that in order to achieve a "certification" in something one must meet an established "standard" for that thing?
    In this discussion, a standard is level of performance, usually through a achieving a certification, to be able to perform a specific job.

    So in other words, as an example, the standards say that a member must have FFI to operate on the fireground.

    A certification is simply the passing of a specified test.
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    You have no idea what you are talking about from one post to the next.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In this discussion, a standard is level of performance, usually through a achieving a certification, to be able to perform a specific job.
    Yes, a standard is a level of performance and certification is based on achieving the level of performance in the standard. Training is what enables one to perform a specific job. Certification says that you have demonstrated that you know how to perform that specific job.


    So in other words, as an example, the standards say that a member must have FFI to operate on the fireground.
    Who's standards?

    A certification is simply the passing of a specified test.
    True, but where do you think the testing material comes from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    A certification is simply the passing of a specified test.
    Specified? As in standardized? Or perhaps, based on standards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    You have no idea what you are talking about from one post to the next.

    Yes, a standard is a level of performance and certification is based on achieving the level of performance in the standard. Training is what enables one to perform a specific job. Certification says that you have demonstrated that you know how to perform that specific job.


    Who's standards?

    True, but where do you think the testing material comes from?

    The issue here in my mind is mandatory level of certification by the state required to perform on the fireground - I.E the state of X says that in order to respond as a member of the fire department you must be FFI.

    No non-FFI exterior firefighters. No non-FFI drivers. No non-FFI support. If you don't have FFI, as an example, you're not allowed.

    That's garbage.

    That being said I am all for personnel taking certification tests, which yes, are based on standards, as an option to enhance their professionalism. I am not, and never will be for members being required by state statue having to take certification tests to respond as a member of the fire department.

    Who is qualified to respond and not respond should be solely the decision of the fire department, and nobody else. If they, internally, want to make FFII the THEIR standard, fine, If they want to make FFI THEIR standard, fine. If there is ever an optional Exterior FF certification developed, and they want it THEIR standard, fine. And if they want to have no response standards at all, hey, it's THEIR department, and guess what, that's fine too.

    It is not the government's role to define who can respond and who is or is not a firefighter.

    True, NIMS defines a specified level of training for disaster response, but gues what, that's not a national standard.

    Right now there are no national standards. FFI is not the required minimum training for a volunteer firefighter in most states. To say that it is a national standard is untrue.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    A certification is simply the passing of a specified test.
    Which certifies the tested individual can perform at a certain level. Something you are desperate to avoid.

    Should we get rid of standards for all professions as well? Or just those for VFD's who (like yourself) are desperate to be thought heroes, but want none of the responsibility?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The issue here in my mind is mandatory level of certification by the state required to perform on the fireground - I.E the state of X says that in order to respond as a member of the fire department you must be FFI.

    No non-FFI exterior firefighters. No non-FFI drivers. No non-FFI support. If you don't have FFI, as an example, you're not allowed.

    That's garbage.
    I honestly have no idea what you're on about, it's like 3 card Monte in words. I have never seen someone so passionate and opinionated about certifications that also think they shouldn't be standardized. Why do you care one way or another about ANY certs if you're just gonna train what you want to anyway?

    Perhaps I missed it among the background noise but does LA require FF1 for all firefighters?

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    You're such a flipping buffoon.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The issue here in my mind is mandatory level of certification by the state required to perform on the fireground - I.E the state of X says that in order to respond as a member of the fire department you must be FFI.

    No non-FFI exterior firefighters. No non-FFI drivers. No non-FFI support. If you don't have FFI, as an example, you're not allowed.

    That's garbage.
    OK, I see the problem now, we're not all in the same discussion. How about you join the discussion that's going on outside your mind.

    The discussion we (as in you and me) are having is not about a single state mandated certification in order to be a fire department member. The discussion we are having is about the following:

    * If there would be state mandated certifications for interior, exterior, support or whatever else, then should the "bar" for fire department personnel and services be set at interior operations level (my view) or be set at the lowest possible level (your view) where the primary difference between fire department personnel and civilians is how they are each dressed at a scene.
    * Should volunteer and career personnel meet the same standards to be firefighters? I say yes, any interior level firefighter should be trained to the FF1 level. If lower certification levels exist for other personnel, then they should be trained to those levels. You think all certification in the volunteer fire service should be optional no matter what and member should only be trained on what the department decides to train them on, but not actually certify them on that training.
    * I think responding fire personnel should possess relevant certification(s) for the fire department related service they are providing and that it's reasonable because PD and EMS each have a long history of a single standardized training and certification process regardless of whether the trainee is paid or volunteer. You think that volunteers should be held to lower standards, but still be presented to the public as being "equal" to those meeting the higher standard because the public just knows that they aren't and doesn't expect much from them anyway.


    That being said I am all for personnel taking certification tests, which yes, are based on standards, as an option to enhance their professionalism. I am not, and never will be for members being required by state statue having to take certification tests to respond as a member of the fire department.

    Who is qualified to respond and not respond should be solely the decision of the fire department, and nobody else. If they, internally, want to make FFII the THEIR standard, fine, If they want to make FFI THEIR standard, fine. If there is ever an optional Exterior FF certification developed, and they want it THEIR standard, fine. And if they want to have no response standards at all, hey, it's THEIR department, and guess what, that's fine too.

    It is not the government's role to define who can respond and who is or is not a firefighter.
    BULLS#%T!!!!!! It absolutely is the government's role to define what constitutes a "firefighter". The responsibility for fire protection for any community falls to the local government. Larger communities tend to operate their own fire department (typically a paid or combo department). Smaller communities tend to "outsource" fire services to a single or even multiple independent VFDs. Even if the local government doesn't directly provide the service, they are still ultimately responsible for it's provision. This includes defining training requirements for those providing the services, however most local governments "outsourcing" to VFDs don't tend to do this and just accepts whatever product the VFD puts out there.

    True, NIMS defines a specified level of training for disaster response, but gues what, that's not a national standard.
    I'm pretty sure NIMS is a national standard considering that the "N" stands for "National".

    Right now there are no national standards. FFI is not the required minimum training for a volunteer firefighter in most states. To say that it is a national standard is untrue.
    Correct, most states do not require FF1 certification for their firefighters. However, FF1 is recognized nationally as the "industry standard" for entry level training and certification. So to say that it is not a national standard would be untrue.
    Last edited by FireMedic049; 05-11-2012 at 03:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    BULLS#%T!!!!!! It absolutely is the government's role to define what constitutes a "firefighter".
    Something that is done routinely in every profession. Law, medicine, aeronautics, general contracting, real estate, finance, et al.

    Yet LAFE believes firefighting is somehow special and should be above reproach when it comes to a certain standard.

    As I stated previously, I hope his belief is unique to him and his locale and not indicative of the VFD culture. If if is the norm, we can count on the fire service being the butt of jokes and being last in ever being properly funded.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FuturePrimitive View Post
    I honestly have no idea what you're on about, it's like 3 card Monte in words. I have never seen someone so passionate and opinionated about certifications that also think they shouldn't be standardized. Why do you care one way or another about ANY certs if you're just gonna train what you want to anyway?

    Perhaps I missed it among the background noise but does LA require FF1 for all firefighters?
    Only a handful of states require FFI for all firefighters.Some states require a lesser level of state-developed training for volunteers. Some states require none. LA ia one of those. In fact, LA require no specific training for career members either.

    Yes, I support and encourage certification. That being said, I am fully aware that there are thousands of VFDs where certification is a difficult process due to a number of factors such as cost, and access to classes due to distance and scheduling (LA schedules most specialty and officer certification classes M_F 8-5, which is obviously not practical for volunteers).

    When the day comes that most states fund their fire training systems to deliver certification classes statewide equally to volunteers and career members at times where volunteers can reasonably make classes, I may change that opinion, but in many states, that is not the case, including LA, simply due to budget restrictions.

    I also fully support relevant, applicable training for all volunteers at the level they are performing at, and have stated many times that the department has the obligation to design and deliver the training that the members need to perform the job in their communities using their apparatus and equipment in conjunction with their SOPs and operational principles.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When the day comes that most states fund their fire training systems to deliver certification classes statewide equally to volunteers and career members at times where volunteers can reasonably make classes, I may change that opinion, but in many states, that is not the case, including LA, simply due to budget restrictions.
    And what's going to motivate those states to do that when they have hayseeds telling them it isn't necessary?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    OK - if they come up with these" firefighter helper" standards, do you think they should design different protective equipment for these members? You said its ok for someone not to be trained in scba use to vent. Ok ------------- since he wont be wearing that pesky air pack,, how bout they come up with a jet packpack so if things go South he can just fly away? I know it will be costly but for some of the poorer depts, maybe nomex parachute or better yet some PBI dadelious type wings, that way he can just let the thermal column lift him to safety. And your outside forcible entry guy------ maybe a strap on bionic halligan arm , of course interchangable with a hook ------arrrrr- the possibilities are endless. And cant forget the souped up "jazzy" scooters with the hose strap bracket for you outside hose stretchers.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post


    BULLS#%T!!!!!! It absolutely is the government's role to define what constitutes a "firefighter". The responsibility for fire protection for any community falls to the local government. Larger communities tend to operate their own fire department (typically a paid or combo department). Smaller communities tend to "outsource" fire services to a single or even multiple independent VFDs. Even if the local government doesn't directly provide the service, they are still ultimately responsible for it's provision. This includes defining training requirements for those providing the services, however most local governments "outsourcing" to VFDs don't tend to do this and just accepts whatever product the VFD puts out there.
    ...
    Do tell. ISO, NFPA etc. have sold out to the big gov't statists? May the Constitution save us from "Government's Role". How strange that those who sing this song usually mean the FEDERAL gov't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...I am fully aware that there are thousands of VFDs where certification is a difficult process due to a number of factors such as cost, and access to classes due to distance and scheduling...
    I doubt you can name 100, let alone 1000's.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    Do tell. ISO, NFPA etc. have sold out to the big gov't statists? May the Constitution save us from "Government's Role". How strange that those who sing this song usually mean the FEDERAL gov't.
    And your point was........................?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When the day comes that most states fund their fire training systems to deliver certification classes statewide equally to volunteers and career members at times where volunteers can reasonably make classes, I may change that opinion, but in many states, that is not the case, including LA, simply due to budget restrictions.
    You mean like Wisconsin an obvious leader in that arena has done for decades? All entry level and certification level course are funded by the state. As for scheduling classes when vollies can attend, when you contact the tech school I teach for you tell them when you want the class. We have done day, night, weekend (including Sundays), multple days a week, and skipped nights due to other thngs going on in the FD. We accomodate the FD whenever possible as long as they have enough students to hold the class.
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    All you guys looking to raise the creditablity of volunteers through raising the training standards have no idea what you're talking about. You're just IAFF *******s who think the volunteer service isn't good enough or smart enough. You really think pushing to give volunteers a chance to be on par with career guys will help large scale accidents, lower the LODD rate, and improve the status of the volunteer service? You're crazy! Volunteers just can't handle anymore! They only have time to respond to calls, not got to extra training. Look, I could lose these really great guys if I ask them to attend the same amount of training. They can't handle taking the book home and reading when they have time. I know we have to have training but we have to focus on OUR skill set, 8' folding ladders, 12' singles, and 24' extensions. Do you know how hard it is to spend an extra 20 minutes in the 35' (that we'll never, ever, ever use) when we could be discussing closet pikes and haybale fires. Look, I know your towns are changing but ours won't! We know that buildings will never be too tall for our 24'. We KNOW an obstruction or void will never require a longer ladder to cross. We KNOW that every key is hidden under the mat so we don't need your fancy forcible entry. You can get all the certifications you want but it don't do ya no good! Don't mean nothing! The key to advancing the volunteer service isn't higher standards! It's lowering them to meet our output! If you can lower them enough, we'll be above standard no matter what!
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    All you guys looking to raise the creditablity of volunteers through raising the training standards have no idea what you're talking about. You're just IAFF *******s who think the volunteer service isn't good enough or smart enough. You really think pushing to give volunteers a chance to be on par with career guys will help large scale accidents, lower the LODD rate, and improve the status of the volunteer service? You're crazy! Volunteers just can't handle anymore! They only have time to respond to calls, not got to extra training. Look, I could lose these really great guys if I ask them to attend the same amount of training. They can't handle taking the book home and reading when they have time. I know we have to have training but we have to focus on OUR skill set, 8' folding ladders, 12' singles, and 24' extensions. Do you know how hard it is to spend an extra 20 minutes in the 35' (that we'll never, ever, ever use) when we could be discussing closet pikes and haybale fires. Look, I know your towns are changing but ours won't! We know that buildings will never be too tall for our 24'. We KNOW an obstruction or void will never require a longer ladder to cross. We KNOW that every key is hidden under the mat so we don't need your fancy forcible entry. You can get all the certifications you want but it don't do ya no good! Don't mean nothing! The key to advancing the volunteer service isn't higher standards! It's lowering them to meet our output! If you can lower them enough, we'll be above standard no matter what!
    Now that is some funny **** right there!!
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    That's not the case here. And that's not the case in many states.

    There are no technical colleges here to deliver fire training. All training comes out of LSU FETI and the only 2 fixed facilities are in Baton Rouge and next to us in Minden. Just about every certification level class, either at the campuses or at host departments, other than FFI (Instructor, Officer, D/O, Investigator, etc) is scheduled Monday-Friday 8-5, which obviously isn't volunteer friendly. They do teach hazmat awareness and operations as well as some some FFI classes on the local level but they are very limited by funding availability.

    So while in your state there may be strong access to fire training in the rural world, in my state, and many others that isn't the case. That is in part why LSU-FETI came up with the NFPA 1403-Train-the -Trainer program. The simple fact is that in the rural fires service in many states is underserved and making these requirements will cause tremendous issues without an accompanying increase in funding for fire service training. And we all know that is not going to happen.

    This being said, I mean no disrespect to the LSU staff. they do a fine job with what they are given, but the reality is they simply are not funded like they need to be given the rural nature of the state and the lack of other resources, such as community and technical colleges delivering fire training, like in Fryed's state. LSU has made several attempts to secure other revenue sources so that they can expand the training to rural areas and lower the cost, but those efforts have not been supported by the legislature, and sadly, by some parts of the fire service itself, often for selfish reasons.

    Again, if you are going to establish requirements they need to be fund ed as a large percentage of the departments in this state, and other rural states will not be able to meet them on their own.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-12-2012 at 07:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    All you guys looking to raise the creditablity of volunteers through raising the training standards have no idea what you're talking about. You're just IAFF *******s who think the volunteer service isn't good enough or smart enough. You really think pushing to give volunteers a chance to be on par with career guys will help large scale accidents, lower the LODD rate, and improve the status of the volunteer service? You're crazy! Volunteers just can't handle anymore! They only have time to respond to calls, not got to extra training. Look, I could lose these really great guys if I ask them to attend the same amount of training. They can't handle taking the book home and reading when they have time. I know we have to have training but we have to focus on OUR skill set, 8' folding ladders, 12' singles, and 24' extensions. Do you know how hard it is to spend an extra 20 minutes in the 35' (that we'll never, ever, ever use) when we could be discussing closet pikes and haybale fires. Look, I know your towns are changing but ours won't! We know that buildings will never be too tall for our 24'. We KNOW an obstruction or void will never require a longer ladder to cross. We KNOW that every key is hidden under the mat so we don't need your fancy forcible entry. You can get all the certifications you want but it don't do ya no good! Don't mean nothing! The key to advancing the volunteer service isn't higher standards! It's lowering them to meet our output! If you can lower them enough, we'll be above standard no matter what!
    Yupppppppppppppppppppppppp.

    You're right again. Silly me, I should expect all our volunteers to put in as much time as you. Screw the second job. Screw the family. They should just be concerned with being the best damn firefighter they should be.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yupppppppppppppppppppppppp.

    You're right again. Silly me, I should expect all our volunteers to put in as much time as you. Screw the second job. Screw the family. They should just be concerned with being the best damn firefighter they should be.
    Only if they want to be taken seriously for the title they are claiming. Your idea is that something is better than nothing. I'm hoping your mindset is unique to your area and not all VFDs.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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