Sorta What I have Been Thinkin'

[LaFireEducator]

Actually for what I'm talking about, it's all apples, just different varieties.

All three are part of the Public Safety spectrum and all three are an essential public service. All three have funding issues, some more than others. All three require specific knowledge and skills not usually commonly found among the general public. Yet only 2 of the 3 in most states have any sort of state level certification requirements of the personnel involved with the provision of those services to the public.

You really don't see the inherent problem with this?


BTW, I'm talking about certification and not necessarily exclusively of FF1. As I've said, I don't necessarily have a problem with these "lesser" certifications, I just strongly disagree with your position that they should be the "baseline" by which a fire department/firefighter is measured.

No it's not apples.

Cops - Paid, and generally was paid while attending the academy.
EMS - paid, and at a minumum id often trained to get CE hours
Fire - Volunteer

To quote the old sesame Street song .... "Which one of these is not like the other ......"

You think that the same standard should apply to volunteers? Fine.

Again, run that by some rural volunteer Chiefs especially where certification classes cost $$$$, and requiring certification will affect manpower and tell me how it goes.

As I said, if they are in, so am I.

[LaFireEducator]

I've been "lucky" enough to have our class training fall on my vacation, which means I come in for class, on a day off, unpaid.

I just wish they'd let me pick and choose the calls I responded to so I could get a full nights sleep. But it's understandable, my boss just hates when I show up to my other job tired from fighting fire the night before. My spouse also hates the time I spend away from home and the dates and occasions I've had to miss. And then to think, after all of that, I go spend every third day at my career department....

Gee whiz ... I've worked plenty of jobs where I had to work holidays and missed special occasions. I've even worked jobs where I was required to work overtime ... Wawawaaaaaaa.

Don't really know what the point of all that whining was about. I think every job entails some level of sacrifice, so just get over it.

It's the career you choose. You could have chosen some other job and just remained a volunteer.

Fact is most career members do attend training primarily on the clock. Yes there are exceptions, but often that's not the case. I know several career personnel that simply refuse to attend training on their off-time.

[tajm611]

Thanks for proving how stupid you really are. When you get a moment, check out the word sarcasm. Or just reread my post and try catch the obvious irony.


I use to feel sorry for you. Now I really feel horrible for the guys who have to come into contact with you but aren't allowed to slap you in the head. That has to be frustrating.

[ChiefKN]

Wow...

I can't believe you haven't changed LAF's mind on this yet.

Keep trying!

[Bones42]

I probably should have worded that differently. It should be a mandatory skill depending on your areas, but it's not something that should just be passed by like it's no big deal. Not sure about your area, but I know mine is seeing more and more standpipe systems being installed. And I'll have 7 years in this August.

Exactly what LaFire is stating too...

7 years in....I thought you had stated you just finished FF1. Not a problem.

[Bones42]

I agree with this. I want this posted on every LODD for volunteer firefighters.

Why not all firefighters? Are you saying only volunteers have to compromise on their training?

[LaFireEducator]

Thanks for proving how stupid you really are. When you get a moment, check out the word sarcasm. Or just reread my post and try catch the obvious irony.


I use to feel sorry for you. Now I really feel horrible for the guys who have to come into contact with you but aren't allowed to slap you in the head. That has to be frustrating.

Whatever dude.

Crazy posts that have really nothing to do with the topic and name calling. That's all ya got?

[ThNozzleman]

Crazy posts that have really nothing to do with the topic and name calling. That's all ya got?

It's more attention than you deserve.

[BoxAlarm187]

No it's not apples.

Cops - Paid, and generally was paid while attending the academy.
EMS - paid, and at a minumum id often trained to get CE hours
Fire - Volunteer

I hate to keep throwing the "hey, look at us flag," but the ambulance service here where I live has 6 full-time weekday, daytime only personnel, but all nights and weekends are covered by volunteers. They must have EMT (110 hours) to be a member, which they don't get paid to take, and must attend CE's on their own as well. Furthermore, they have a number of EMT-P and EMT-I members as well, who've completed their 400+ hours of training on their own. And no, we're not an anomaly, this is not all that unusual throughout our state.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - raise the bar for the members, and they'll enjoy the challenge and rise to meet that challenge.

[LaFireEducator]

I hate to keep throwing the "hey, look at us flag," but the ambulance service here where I live has 6 full-time weekday, daytime only personnel, but all nights and weekends are covered by volunteers. They must have EMT (110 hours) to be a member, which they don't get paid to take, and must attend CE's on their own as well. Furthermore, they have a number of EMT-P and EMT-I members as well, who've completed their 400+ hours of training on their own. And no, we're not an anomaly, this is not all that unusual throughout our state.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - raise the bar for the members, and they'll enjoy the challenge and rise to meet that challenge.

There's nothing wrong with throwing the "hey look at us flag".

But as you stated it's the norm in your area. It's the culture of the fire service in that region, and there is no doubt that the culture plays a role in what the expectations are of the members.

As I have stated previously, my VFDs training continueing and initial requirements, including a 50-hour course before new members were even allowed to ride on the truck, are much tougher than any of the training requirements i have encountered in this area for volunteers sither on combo or volunteer departments. The culture of higher expectations and fairly tough training requirements simply is not in play in this area.

So yes, that has a tremendous role in what you can ask or demand of volunteers in terms of training time before they will no longer volunteer.

In this area there is simply no way that we could demand wjhat we demanded on my previous VFDs in the northeast, and like it or not, that's the way that it is. It has taken time for me to accept that, and as a result, what I consider reasonable has changed based on the area that I am now in.

The other factor that must be considered is the simple fact that there is not the community-wide tradition of volunteering for the fire department in the south like there is in the the northeast or midwest. Now I recognize that volunteerism has dropped off somewhat in the northeast compared to 20 years ago, but still, northeastern and midwestern VFDs , as a percentage of the community, have far more volunteers than departments in the south. because of that, I have learned that we have to be more sensative to the reactions of members when training demands increase as they very well may leave in significant enough numbers to create serious response and fireground safety issues.

[HuntPA]

So let me see if I can summarize 17 pages.

- A new certification is being proposed for support operations. (1 post)
- This would be more in detail on support operations than covered in standard FFI or above classes (1 post)
- No one argues that the certification is a bad idea (unless I missed something) (0 posts)
- What should be the base, smallest requirement to be a "firefighter" is debated (8 PAGES)
- One person's training philosophy and everyone else's responses (8+ PAGES)

[RyanK63]

Exactly what LaFire is stating too...

7 years in....I thought you had stated you just finished FF1. Not a problem.

haha Yeah I had the state level essentials class and EMT then finally decided to get the national cert for FF1/HAZMAT Ops.

[tree68]

Cops - Paid, and generally was paid while attending the academy.
EMS - paid, and at a minumum id often trained to get CE hours
Fire - Volunteer

Up until just a few years ago, EMS in my area was ALL volunteer, outside a few commercial services, and the rigs were staffed by everything from uncertified drivers (ie, not EMT's) to ALS providers. Today there are several squads that have gone combination - a few paid staffers, usually the medics, backed up by volunteers, not all of whom are EMT's. You don't need a card to ride in, or drive, the bus.

[FireMedic049]

No it's not apples.

Cops - Paid, and generally was paid while attending the academy.
EMS - paid, and at a minumum id often trained to get CE hours
Fire - Volunteer

To quote the old sesame Street song .... "Which one of these is not like the other ......"

It is all apples, you just don't seem to comprehend the point being made.

Yes, cops are almost exclusively paid and many are paid while attending the academy, however not all are. In my area at least, it is possible to attend police training on ones own time and commonly done. Regardless, to be a cop in my state, you must possess a state certification for police training.

EMS is predominately paid in my area, however EMS volunteers are still pretty common in many parts of my state and the country. In almost 20 years as an EMS provider, the vast majority of which have been as a paid provider, the only time I've had any of my required con-ed paid for was when I was still a volunteer. In order to work on an ambulance you must possess a state certification for EMS. A non-certified person can ride on the ambulance, however they must do so as an observer, are not allowed to render care and do not count towards the required staffing for the unit.

FIRE nationwide is predominately volunteer/combination if you look at the overall number of firefighters, fire departments and square mileage covered. In my state, a person could join a fire department and immediately start running calls with absolutely no training and be used in any capacity. In reality the VFDs require so degree of training, however to be a full-fledge FF in this state (and others) a person does not need to possess a state certification in firefighting.

You are right one of these things is not like the other, but why is that? It certainly can't be because volunteers can't be expected to meet the same standards, because they already do for police and EMS and have been doing so for a long, long time. EMT class is about the same number of hours as the Essentials class and FF1 testing, so it can't be that. What's left?

When a person calls 911 for help, one, two or all three of these groups will respond to their call for assistance depending on the nature of their need - that's apple, apple, apple! So why shouldn't all three agencies and their personnel be state certified for the services they will provide?

You think that the same standard should apply to volunteers?

Yes, but you aren't comprehending what I'm saying regarding that.

I'm not saying every VFD member has to be trained the same as career personnel. I'm saying that if a person is going to actually be a full-duty firefighter, whether they are career or volunteer, they should meet the same minimum standard. Currently that standard is FF1.

As I've stated, I'm not specifically opposed to the idea of other "lesser" standard(s) for other personnel because I understand the issue from the volunteer side, however certification to those standards must be part of the equation and personnel not certified to those "lesser" standards must not be utilized until they are (with the possible exception of under direct supervision of a senior member). Again, whatever standard(s) developed would apply equally to career and volunteer personnel.

As I've already stated, the "bar" for fire departments and firefighters should be interior attack & victim rescue and FF1 respectively. If there is a need for and existence of these lesser certifications, then I don't see a specific problem with allowing new personnel to obtain these certifications first and function at only these levels while working towards FF1 and possibly beyond. To say that any of these lower levels should be the "bar" for all of the fire service because there are some small, rural VFDs in Podunk, USA that for whatever reason is not capable of interior attack & victim rescue is ridiculous.

[FireMedic049]

Fact is most career members do attend training primarily on the clock. Yes there are exceptions, but often that's not the case. I know several career personnel that simply refuse to attend training on their off-time.

Fact is you have no idea what most career members do in terms of training or compensation for training. Many, many of use do not get compensated for training, yet still take training on our own time. I know am one of them and know numerous other career personnel that do also.

[FireMedic049]

There's nothing wrong with throwing the "hey look at us flag".

But as you stated it's the norm in your area. It's the culture of the fire service in that region, and there is no doubt that the culture plays a role in what the expectations are of the members.

As I have stated previously, my VFDs training continueing and initial requirements, including a 50-hour course before new members were even allowed to ride on the truck, are much tougher than any of the training requirements i have encountered in this area for volunteers sither on combo or volunteer departments. The culture of higher expectations and fairly tough training requirements simply is not in play in this area.

So yes, that has a tremendous role in what you can ask or demand of volunteers in terms of training time before they will no longer volunteer.

In this area there is simply no way that we could demand wjhat we demanded on my previous VFDs in the northeast, and like it or not, that's the way that it is. It has taken time for me to accept that, and as a result, what I consider reasonable has changed based on the area that I am now in.

The other factor that must be considered is the simple fact that there is not the community-wide tradition of volunteering for the fire department in the south like there is in the the northeast or midwest. Now I recognize that volunteerism has dropped off somewhat in the northeast compared to 20 years ago, but still, northeastern and midwestern VFDs , as a percentage of the community, have far more volunteers than departments in the south. because of that, I have learned that we have to be more sensative to the reactions of members when training demands increase as they very well may leave in significant enough numbers to create serious response and fireground safety issues.

Once again, this issue is not exclusively about you and your area.

[scfire86]

Wow...

I can't believe you haven't changed LAF's mind on this yet.

Keep trying!

That was funny. I hope that LAFE's mindset on firefighting is unique to him or at least his locale. I pray it isn't indicative of the VFD culture.

[ChiefKN]

That was funny. I hope that LAFE's mindset on firefighting is unique to him or at least his locale. I pray it isn't indicative of the VFD culture.

I wish I could say that was true... he represents a portion of the VFD's out there. But I wouldn't say it was a large percentage.

[tajm611]

AFG has made it clear that they want FF1 and FF2 certifications. They want your plan of implemantation of training to get there. So it appears of you want federal money it will eventually be tied to training.

Weird, they want certified competent firefighters using the benefits of the grants and not members who swear their training is "enough". Just another way they're trying to keep volunteers down, nothing good can come from expecting training to rise proportionally to the times.

[LaFireEducator]

Once again, this issue is not exclusively about you and your area.

No, it isn't but this issue is dealt with will have a tremendous impact on my area, north LA overall and areas in other states in the same situation.

I'm not overlly concerned as I have seen or heard no rumbles in the my state regarding any movement towards any level of mandatory certification for volunteer personnel.

The fact is there would be very limited support in the volunteer fire service statewide as the impact in LA would be significant and create major problems related towards the delivery of fire protection in rural areas and rural volunteer departments.

By and large the culture in the state regarding the volunteer fire service is not strong enough to support any type of state mandates regarding training.