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Thread: Sorta What I have Been Thinkin'

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    Those that claim the title Marine have all went through the same basic training. They are riflemen first and then trained on whatever specialty they have signed up for.

    They did not join up and say " Nah guys I think I will play in the band and skip basic "

    Same thing with the fire service. You should be trained to a standard and then go from there.
    Not just skip the rough parts just to stand in the yard.

    So this is really all about the title. Now I understand.

    Some of you are offended that the guys that don't go interior have the same title as the big, bad interior guys. Now I see.

    And by the way, at a working incident, none of my exterior guys are "just standing in the yard". They are pretty much all performing essential fireground functions.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    OK - SO LA -how about you read my post about what your neighbor to the North has (and has had for at least ten years) developed -the module, AKA patch program. It is basically a "cafetera" type plan. Developed when a bunch of volly chiefs said that IFSAC FF1/2 was either too hard or not relevant.
    I dont agree with it , but it is what it is -but again -QUIT TRYING TO REINVENT THE WHEEL -and acting like this is some grand idea. And guess what ? It is being done in a small rural low income state.
    If ifs and buts were candy and nuts -we would all have a heck of a Christmas
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    It has nothing to do with a title.
    Your argument is invalid

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Unless you want an ironworker. Make sure you ask for the right one.

    Just because there is a generic term for people in the fire service doesn't mean all of them are equal, nor do we, ourselves, expect them to be. If there is a hazmat spill, if the first engine company to show up is only trained to ops, does that make them deficient? If it's EMS and the first unit to show up is BLS, does that make them deficient?

    Does every department rotate drivers/pump operators, or are there some for which that's a special qualification to be aspired to?

    Just because I'm a railroad engineer doesn't mean I can just jump into any locomotive and run it anywhere. I have to be specifically qualified on the territory in question. But I'm still an engineer.

    When people call the fire department, they expect someone to come and put the fire out. That there are some people going inside and others staying out is of no consequence to them, as long as the fire goes out. Why isn't that guy in the white helmet inside helping to put the fire out?

    If you follow sites like Statter, you've seen fantastic knocks by vollies and career-staffed departments doing a surround and drown (and vice versa for sure - not picking favorites here). We know why. The public has no clue.

    We already have levels within firefighter.
    Gotta diagree with the iron worker anology - different types - maybe -but I bet any one who calls himself an iron worker can use a torch , read a tape , and lift 50 lbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And being inclusive in the volunteer fire service is bad how?

    It is bad if you have to lessen the quality of service, and you are, whether you want to admit it or not. Suppose your roster is full, and you have 5 new young guys that are hard chargers that want to get on your FD, they are already trained having come from other FDs, and ready to go interior. But OH NO, you don't have room for them because you have half your roster full of exterior guys...So much for better service.

    By allowing more people to participate you are likely able to garner a much wider base of community support. You have a much broader base of skills and experiences that can be drawn on for both incidents and non-emergency functions? You have more personnel for support and other operations when a disaster hits your community.

    Create an auxiliary, like so many FDs have for those non-emergency scee operations. They are support members, not firefighters.

    Ya, I can see all the downsides.

    No you can't because if it isn't yur way, it is wrong, regardless of how many people here tell you it is stupid and potentially dangerous to the real firefighters on scene working interior.

    Obviously your idea of the volunteer fire service is a bunch of sweaty guys working fires and incidents, and that's all. I guess I don't share your view that we should limit membership to your little club to guys and a few women who are capable of doing the entire job. I see the job a series of pieces that can use a wide variety of skills and folks from the community, and yes that includes exterior firefighters, driver-only, support personnel and even specialized non-firefighter rescue personnel working together on scene.

    Unfortunately your little idea of fire service heaven doesn't mean jack squat when those sweaty men and women are needed to do th work you want to back away from and pussify the fire service out of. There is no substitute for going inside to extinguish fires and making rescues. No pub ed guy, no inspector, no guy making gatorade, no guy filling bottles, no guy spraying water in the windows, no guy throwing ladders, NO ONE, will replace those brave few going inside and doing the work we know the real fire service consists of. You don't like that, too damn bad it is reality.

    It works quite well in thousands of rural VFDs all over the country and there really are no downsides. Well actually, there is one now I think about it. Little boys like you have to let a lot more folks into the club.

    It may be what they do, myself and others will argue til we run out of breath whether it works well. Your attempt at an insult calling me a little boy is laughable, you dodge going to fires at the same age as me, I relish the opportunity to do the work of a firefighter. I wish no one the horror of a fire BUT if there is one I WANT t be there, I WANT to affect the outcome, I WANT to make a difference. I don't want to sit in my office and make excuses why I didn't go on that call. Seriously, why in the Hell are you even in the fire service, you have shown repeatedly you don't give a damn about actually doing the job anymore, if you ever did in the first place.
    Your narcissistic need for attention must drive you insane to keep you coming here and taking the beatings you do every day.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    OK - SO LA -how about you read my post about what your neighbor to the North has (and has had for at least ten years) developed -the module, AKA patch program. It is basically a "cafetera" type plan. Developed when a bunch of volly chiefs said that IFSAC FF1/2 was either too hard or not relevant.
    I dont agree with it , but it is what it is -but again -QUIT TRYING TO REINVENT THE WHEEL -and acting like this is some grand idea. And guess what ? It is being done in a small rural low income state.
    If ifs and buts were candy and nuts -we would all have a heck of a Christmas
    Never said it was a new idea.

    It's interesting that ARK can do it. The fact is that LSU has committed much of thier resources to center-based operations at Baton Rouge compared to regional programs. Yes, there are some regional instructors and regional programs, especially out of the satellitte facility here in north LA, but much of the focus is in the programs at Baton Rouge, especially the industrial programs, and the ARFF program, both of which drw stuidents from across the country.

    At this time LSU FETI is undergoing a significant l;eadership change, and there are likely going to be some other significant changes in the next few months, including possible changes in overall direction. Right now it's really not possible to predict where the changes are going to come, but we likely may be dealing with a very different management structure by this time next year, whcih may bring the changes needed to implement a program such as that.

    Could you provide me a link or info on how to find out about the ARK program?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    To follow on tree68's post....

    I have several friends that are sales people. Talk to some of them about the sale of car and they can't help you.

    How about Marines? Are they all pilots? Are they all drill sergeants? Are they all SEALs? No, no, and no...but they are all called Marines. Again, just a generic name that has many different divisions that fall under that generic name. Just like the generic name firefighter. There are many more examples.

    This thread has gone a bit wayward.

    Personally, I can see where the exterior FF standard/certification can exist and possibly serve a purpose. It's not something my Department would be interested in.

    I do see where we (my FD) could take advantage of a driver only standard/certification though.
    AND, I, one of the strogest opponents to the Exterior FF standard finally said OK, as long as we make it mandatory for exterior only guys and FF1 mandatory for interior guys. Bobby ran from that like a scalded cat. Furthering the proof that he couldn't care less about this whole thing other than to pot stir and try and look like a fire service leader of the new pussification division.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    AFTA Off Campus Schedule -click on any of the modules -
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The purpose of exterior members is not about being inclusive, though it does end up having that benefit. The purpose is to put additional trained members on the fireground to support interior operations.

    I fully agree that the bar should be set high which is why there needs to be internal training standards associatted with exterior members the same as interior members. Training and performance requirements should be set and training attendanece standards must be met. I have no issues with that. And that is setting the bar high for personnel wjho are either ubnable to unwilling to operate interior.
    Put your money where your mouth is and support a MANDATORY Exterior Firefighter Standard and Certification otherwise you are talking out of both sides of your Butt. Not unusual but tiring since you supported that and are now running away from it with your same tired old enabling excuses.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    And being inclusive in the volunteer fire service is bad how?

    It is bad if you have to lessen the quality of service, and you are, whether you want to admit it or not. Suppose your roster is full, and you have 5 new young guys that are hard chargers that want to get on your FD, they are already trained having come from other FDs, and ready to go interior. But OH NO, you don't have room for them because you have half your roster full of exterior guys...So much for better service.

    Not an issue as we don't have a roster limit. Neither does my VFD. Or my previous VFD. Neither does just about any of the rural volunteer department's in this area.

    I have been on one call department where there was a roster limit, and yes, in that case, everyone should be interior as it's much like a career department as there is a limited number of positions.


    By allowing more people to participate you are likely able to garner a much wider base of community support. You have a much broader base of skills and experiences that can be drawn on for both incidents and non-emergency functions? You have more personnel for support and other operations when a disaster hits your community.

    Create an auxiliary, like so many FDs have for those non-emergency scee operations. They are support members, not firefighters.

    Some departments go that route, but why do you need the seperation? I have been on departments where there is an auxilary and support members, and both groups have different functions.

    Our support members on both my combo and volunteer departments are active members of the operation including running EMS calls and driving/pumping apparatus.

    Why is that fact the support members are considered an active component of the suppression operations such an issue? Why is it even important?


    Ya, I can see all the downsides.

    No you can't because if it isn't yur way, it is wrong, regardless of how many people here tell you it is stupid and potentially dangerous to the real firefighters on scene working interior.



    Actually we're split about 50/50 in here. In my part of the world, many combo and just about every rural volunteer department operates this way.

    So additional people to ehnace operations are dangerous. More members to feed hose interior. More members to raise ladders. More members to establish water supplies sooner. More members to make exterior holes in the structure in the event of a mayday event. ya, more members to support the interior operations. Ya, those are all bad things.

    And yes, more exterior members performing exterior tasks to allow interior members to staff RIT.

    I'm really trying to grasp how all of this is dangerous to interior members.


    Obviously your idea of the volunteer fire service is a bunch of sweaty guys working fires and incidents, and that's all. I guess I don't share your view that we should limit membership to your little club to guys and a few women who are capable of doing the entire job. I see the job a series of pieces that can use a wide variety of skills and folks from the community, and yes that includes exterior firefighters, driver-only, support personnel and even specialized non-firefighter rescue personnel working together on scene.

    Unfortunately your little idea of fire service heaven doesn't mean jack squat when those sweaty men and women are needed to do th work you want to back away from and pussify the fire service out of. There is no substitute for going inside to extinguish fires and making rescues. No pub ed guy, no inspector, no guy making gatorade, no guy filling bottles, no guy spraying water in the windows, no guy throwing ladders, NO ONE, will replace those brave few going inside and doing the work we know the real fire service consists of. You don't like that, too damn bad it is reality.

    And we'll try this again ...

    Nowhere did I ever state that a fire department should not be primarily staffed with interior-qualified personnel capable of making interior attack when applicable as determined by local resources and department operating guidelines and philosophy. Nowhere. Every department SHOULD be capable of this.

    That being said, there is absolutly nothing negative about those personnel being supported by trained exterior-only personnel assiting in poviding additional mapower for external tasks. Nothing. There are personnel who are fully capable of performing all or most exterior tasks, and they should be involved in operations as such as trained members of the team (Ya, I know, I'm being inclusive again.).

    And yes, there are departments and there always will be departments that are primarily exterior due to circumstances often beyond their control. Is that the ideal? No, and I never stated that it was, but it is in some places the reality and making FFI mandatory will NOT change that. EVER. All it will do is limit the personnel available to a handful at best, increase the liklihood that neighboring properties will be lost as well.


    It works quite well in thousands of rural VFDs all over the country and there really are no downsides. Well actually, there is one now I think about it. Little boys like you have to let a lot more folks into the club.


    It may be what they do, myself and others will argue til we run out of breath whether it works well. Your attempt at an insult calling me a little boy is laughable, you dodge going to fires at the same age as me, I relish the opportunity to do the work of a firefighter. I wish no one the horror of a fire BUT if there is one I WANT t be there, I WANT to affect the outcome, I WANT to make a difference. I don't want to sit in my office and make excuses why I didn't go on that call. Seriously, why in the Hell are you even in the fire service, you have shown repeatedly you don't give a damn about actually doing the job anymore, if you ever did in the first place.

    Ya, that's right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Put your money where your mouth is and support a MANDATORY Exterior Firefighter Standard and Certification otherwise you are talking out of both sides of your Butt. Not unusual but tiring since you supported that and are now running away from it with your same tired old enabling excuses.
    I have supported a mandatory certification in the past, as I have talked about several times before, and that is still my prefeered route.

    A roughly 50-hour certification for interior personnel that was proposed by the LA State Fireman's Association, similiar to the one used by my previous VFD for many years with great success. I spoke in favor of it and supported it being advanced as a proposed state standard a few years ago at the state conference. And yes, I would support it today as well assuming that there was funding in place to implement training for it statewide.

    The exterior components from that could be extracted out an taught as a roughy 20-25 hour Exterior Firefighters course and certification.

    That I could support, and have supported in the past as a minimum standard. It would be reasonable in time and likely relevant to most areas of the volunteer fire service.

    I cannot support FFI due to it's relevance, or lack of, to much of the volunteer fire service. It simply is not, IMO, relevant enough to most rural VFDs to be considered time effective as entry-level training.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 05-21-2012 at 01:02 PM.
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    Whats this fasicnation with "sweaty guys" LA ????
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    To follow on tree68's post....

    I have several friends that are sales people. Talk to some of them about the sale of car and they can't help you.

    How about Marines? Are they all pilots? Are they all drill sergeants? Are they all SEALs? No, no, and no...but they are all called Marines. Again, just a generic name that has many different divisions that fall under that generic name. Just like the generic name firefighter. There are many more examples.

    This thread has gone a bit wayward.

    Personally, I can see where the exterior FF standard/certification can exist and possibly serve a purpose. It's not something my Department would be interested in.

    I do see where we (my FD) could take advantage of a driver only standard/certification though.
    As already mentioned, your comparison is skewed. Each Marine goes through the same basic training. They then move on to their given specialty.

    Nice try though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    As already mentioned, your comparison is skewed. Each Marine goes through the same basic training. They then move on to their given specialty.

    Nice try though.
    So, basic training is the 50 hour intro to firefighting course.

    Comparison is un-skewed.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    So, basic training is the 50 hour intro to firefighting course.

    Comparison is un-skewed.
    No basic training = FF/2 -
    ?

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    When guy graduate FF standards at the academy, the speaker at the ceremony usually reminds them they have just graduated kindergarden.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    ... You should be trained to a standard and then go from there...
    And yet, as a fire service, we are not.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    So, basic training is the 50 hour intro to firefighting course.

    Comparison is un-skewed.
    What he said.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    And yet, as a fire service, we are not.
    And Iron Valor, which one of the standards out there do you choose?

    We have a bunch of states with no miminum standards at all. Should we choose one of them?

    We have some states with a non-FFI standard of anywhere from 36 to 60hours. Would you like to make a selection from one of them?

    And then we have states that have FFI as a standard thast somehow range from the store-brand generic economy version at 90 hours to the extra butter made with all natural ingrediant version at 240 Hours.

    So exactly what is "the standard"? Whish one is most applicable?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And Iron Valor, which one of the standards out there do you choose?

    We have a bunch of states with no miminum standards at all. Should we choose one of them?

    We have some states with a non-FFI standard of anywhere from 36 to 60hours. Would you like to make a selection from one of them?

    And then we have states that have FFI as a standard thast somehow range from the store-brand generic economy version at 90 hours to the extra butter made with all natural ingrediant version at 240 Hours.

    So exactly what is "the standard"? Whish one is most applicable?
    IFSAC - Was that so hard?
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    IFSAC - Was that so hard?
    I'm referring to mandatory training standards state by state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    No basic training = FF/2 -
    Depends on where you are. In Ohio you can be a Volunteer with a 36 hour card. Some part time depts. require a 110 hour (FF1) card. To work full time as a fire fighter, you have to have the 240 hour (FF2) card. On the plus side, Ohio finally started requiring 18 hours of continuing education every year (or 54 for the three year certification cycle) It can be on anything the Chief of a dept. deems relevant to their dept. So eventually you should theoretically get the amount of training to get to a higher level of compentancy.
    It would be nice to see depts' be able to up the certifications of a FF by accumulation of training hours, they'd just have to hammer out minimum hours and content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Which thread is going to hit 1000 first, this one or the "Countdown to 1000" in the off duty section? My bet is this one, even though the other had an 800 post head start.

    Next question, how many posts will this one go before people realize that the actual purpose of this thread was thoroughly discussed in 15-20 posts and the rest has been all about one person and their beliefs? I say 1,245.
    I wish I could get this much mileage out of my tires.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Another great generalization about volunteers by SC.

    I never would have seen that coming.
    It's obvious you don't see a lot of things coming.
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    thats what she said!
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