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Thread: Sorta What I have Been Thinkin'

  1. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by FireMedic049

    Speaking as a person whose initial training was a 66 hour class almost 20 years ago, you are kidding yourself if you think the hours you suggest for these two classes would be adequate training. I've been told I'm a pretty smart guy and seem to be able to pick up new thing pretty quickly. At the completion of this course, I was without a doubt, not adequately prepared to operate as an interior firefighter. Heck, I was only marginally prepared for exterior operations at that point.

    And I disagree. My previous VFD had a roughly 50-hour class for many years that prepared firefighters pretty well. Did it prepare them for everything? No. it was designed them to prepare them for residential, vehicle and brush firefighting operating under the supervision of experienced members. It did not discuss commercial operations such as alarms and standpipes and introduced them to fire alarm investigation operations. That was meant to be learned on the job in baby steps through continued department training and time on the truck and on the job under supervision. Same with specialized rescue (which we didn't do much of as that was the towns' EMS service's gig) and other rarely used skill sets. It did it's purpose very well.
    While you are "baby stepping" these people, what role do they play? Are they considered "full-duty"? What if you didn't have enough "experienced members" at a fire? Did you still send these guys in to fight fires or were they held outside because of their inexperience and limited training?


    That's about a lie, you don't like mandated standards period.

    No, I don't as they are unfunded mandate that have consequences at the local level that the state has no responsibility and no interest in helping to clean up.
    Right, saying you aren't crazy about them (which implies a small level of acceptance) is pretty much a lie since you don't like them at all.


    Applying a single standard to all VFD members regardless of their level of participation on the fireground may pose a R&R challenge, but that's certainly not the only thing that it would do.

    Pushing for non-mandatory, non-uniform, substandard, watered down training isn't exactly innovative or progressive either.

    You call it watered down. I see the value in locally delivered, locally driven relevant and applicable training in a reasonable time frame for rural volunteers.
    I see value in locally delivered and locally relevant training too. However, the discussion has never been exclusively about rural volunteers and locally relevant training should be taught in conjunction with a standardized entry level training program, not in place of one.

    What happens if "exterior" and/or "support" type certifications are created, are you saying that there would have to be a different standard for "rural", "suburban" and "urban" areas since there would be differences in what would be needed from these people in each setting?

    So, if he's "dead wrong", then what exactly are you doing to improve the fire service?

    Honestly, it's not my job to improve the fire service as a whole. I have no interest in being a leader, a driving force or anything else in the fire service at large. There are folks that like doing that kind of crap, so I let them have at it. As they say horses for courses. I am far more concerned with the local level.

    What I do is teach and periodically work on a slight shift in direction at both my career and volunteer departments, help out with classes when other local instructors ask me, periodically offer a class that has worked well at my 2 departments at another local department or two, and once in a while teach a regional class in my volunteer parish when asked or a prevention. juvenile firesetting class for LSU FETI or my state prevention/arson association.

    That's really all I'm interested in doing
    So then what exactly was he "dead wrong" about because I'm not seeing a very strong rebuttal from you?
    Last edited by FireMedic049; 05-25-2012 at 11:48 PM.

  2. #677
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    And I quote "Honestly, it's not my job to improve the fire service as a whole. I have no interest in being a leader, a driving force or anything else in the fire service at large."

    Lead.. Follow.. Or get the Hell out of the way so somebody else can.
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

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    Honestly, it's not my job to improve the fire service as a whole. I have no interest in being a leader, a driving force or anything else in the fire service at large. There are folks that like doing that kind of crap, so I let them have at it. As they say horses for courses. I am far more concerned with the local level.
    The Late Speaker of the House, Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill once stated "all politics is local".

    Sorry Bobby, but what happens on the local level affects everyone, as does anything that happens on the national one.

    IronValor stated it eloquently...
    Lead.. Follow.. Or get the Hell out of the way so somebody else can.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    While you are "baby stepping" these people, what role do they play? Are they considered "full-duty"? What if you didn't have enough "experienced members" at a fire? Did you still send these guys in to fight fires or were they held outside because of their inexperience and limited training?

    They did not respond to calls until class was complete except as observers (without PPE) if space permitted. After the class was complete they were considered full duty firefighters and worked under the supervision of a senior man. Depending on how well they performed, they were given more or less responsibility at incidents. At commercial building incidents, which the vast majority were alarm trips (we saw less than 2 commercial fires per year) they were placed in crews with experienced personnel, until again, they demonstrated a working knowledge of the procedures that we used. As a rule we focused on commercial operations for a period during weekly training after each class ended so they were exposed to commercial firefighting operations almost as an extension of the rookie class. It also served as a refresher for experienced personnel as again, we saw very little in the way of commercial building fires.

    The reason why it was done this way was so that they would not have to go through an extended class to get out on the street.


    I see value in locally delivered and locally relevant training too. However, the discussion has never been exclusively about rural volunteers and locally relevant training should be taught in conjunction with a standardized entry level training program, not in place of one.

    That is the issue with standardized training. Rural firefighters do not need the level of skill and knowledge that suburban and urban firefighters do as their building stock is often limited. Additionally, they need far more knowledge that most suburban and urban firefighters in specific areas such as brush and wildland operations, rural water operations and specialized firefighting such as farm operations. That is my biggest issue with FFI- It's an attempt at a one size fits all basic class in an enviroment where one size fits all simply does not work.

    What happens if "exterior" and/or "support" type certifications are created, are you saying that there would have to be a different standard for "rural", "suburban" and "urban" areas since there would be differences in what would be needed from these people in each setting?

    I would love to see "Rural FFI". More emphasis and discussion on wildland. More emphasis on rural water. Less emphasis on operations in some buildings more commonly found in suburban and urban environments, especially in the illustrations. I think that would be a truly wonderful thing.

    And for all practical purposes, there is an urban FFI. FDNY, Boston, LA and probably every other major cities rookie academy is basically urban FFI. I doubt there is much discussion on rural water, or farm buildings, or a bunch of other stuff found almost exclusively in the rural and light suburban world. I know the rookie academies in the neighboring two cities discuss very little if anything about rural water and brush fire operations.


    So then what exactly was he "dead wrong" about because I'm not seeing a very strong rebuttal from you?

    In his opinion I'm not doing much for the fire service. That's his opinion.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    In his opinion I'm not doing much for the fire service. That's his opinion.
    It's an opinion shared by the vast majority here....
    Weruj1, scfire86 and rm1524 like this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I see value in locally delivered and locally relevant training too. However, the discussion has never been exclusively about rural volunteers and locally relevant training should be taught in conjunction with a standardized entry level training program, not in place of one.

    That is the issue with standardized training. Rural firefighters do not need the level of skill and knowledge that suburban and urban firefighters do as their building stock is often limited. Additionally, they need far more knowledge that most suburban and urban firefighters in specific areas such as brush and wildland operations, rural water operations and specialized firefighting such as farm operations. That is my biggest issue with FFI- It's an attempt at a one size fits all basic class in an enviroment where one size fits all simply does not work.
    Right, that's why it is incumbent upon each department to provide additional training in those areas that a "basic class" doesn't cover or doesn't cover well enough.

    What happens if "exterior" and/or "support" type certifications are created, are you saying that there would have to be a different standard for "rural", "suburban" and "urban" areas since there would be differences in what would be needed from these people in each setting?

    I would love to see "Rural FFI". More emphasis and discussion on wildland. More emphasis on rural water. Less emphasis on operations in some buildings more commonly found in suburban and urban environments, especially in the illustrations. I think that would be a truly wonderful thing.
    What if a department covers or responds to more than one type of area? For example, one of my prior departments covered a 100 sq mile area consisting of an urban area, numerous suburban areas and a large portion was rural. Would a person in that department need to take 3 classes?

    And for all practical purposes, there is an urban FFI. FDNY, Boston, LA and probably every other major cities rookie academy is basically urban FFI. I doubt there is much discussion on rural water, or farm buildings, or a bunch of other stuff found almost exclusively in the rural and light suburban world. I know the rookie academies in the neighboring two cities discuss very little if anything about rural water and brush fire operations.
    I suppose you could look at it that way, though the major city in my area's fire academy graduates finish with EMT, FF1 & FF2 certs along with a number of other ones plus training on the department's equipment, procedures, etc. That would seen to be well beyond what we are talking about.

    So then what exactly was he "dead wrong" about because I'm not seeing a very strong rebuttal from you?

    In his opinion I'm not doing much for the fire service. That's his opinion.
    True, but you pretty much haven't said anything to show that his opinion is wrong. In fact, some of your comments would tend to validate his opinion.

  7. #682
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    Medic .....

    We could continue on with this and honestly not change either one of our minds one little bit.

    So, that being said, let's just agree to disagree on the way that we view training and how it should be delivered.

    Deal?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Medic .....

    We could continue on with this and honestly not change either one of our minds one little bit.

    So, that being said, let's just agree to disagree on the way that we view training and how it should be delivered.

    Deal?
    If you want the discussion to end, then just stop posting.

  9. #684
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    Agreed. .....
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #685
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    Someone put the chairs up and lock the place on their way out, okay?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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