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Thread: Masking up: In the rig or on the scene?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    Where I am at it is situational. The two fatality fires and 4 or 5 working fires we have had in the past 3 years have been at the same apartment complex, it is half a mile from the station on the same road the station is on. Every member, and I mean every single one, of our fire department has done walkthroughs and responded emergent there for fires and alarms that I could search one of those with my eyes shut and tell you where people put the beds and cribs before I go through the front door. Every unit is the same, just reversed right and left. I can pull utilities there with my eyes shut, I can vent there with my eyes shut. When we get toned out there, we haul ***, we come off the truck packed out face pieces on knowing if its working we are going through the door with tools no hoseline to get people out fast. We have a couple other apartments that are the same deal.
    OK buddy, whatever you say. Your overabundance of detailed facts leads me to think you're full of it. I'm not sure who you're trying to convince, but I ain't biting.

    I don't care if it's your own house, reading the conditions of the smoke, location of the fire, where the people are exiting, their reactions, the crews around you, all these things are factors that a snap shot will allow you to consider. You've fought the same fire a bunch of times in the same complex? Sounds like you either work for NIST or the "apartment complex" is your training burn site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    Barring less than 5% viability (estimated by driver and officer) upon arrival we will be inside searching with 10 seconds of the truck stopping on scene. Often times we run a 3 man crew, sometimes 4 if we have a off duty guy at the station hanging out.
    How do they determine the 5%?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    Also for the sake of "working fires" I mean blazing 3 alarm fires for us. I am not counting numerous kitchen and heater vent or dryer fires.
    So third alarm for very early stages? I mean isn't your district just 9sq miles and you pride yourselves on a fast response. Maybe slow down and be methodical and that early stage fire doesn't turn into a "blazing third alarm"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    Point being, If its somewhere where I can tell you building layouts, utilities, hydrants, and building type forward and backwards, we are going in masked out searching on any time of smoke showing or working fire. I personally (riding in the back) come off the truck every time with the irons in my hand, if its light smoke or nothing showing (obviously not blazing) then I grab the water can as well.
    Well lets hope no one makes any changes without consulting you first. To bad if you missed the lady hanging out the window during your 10 second sprint into the front door.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    We pride ourselves on fast response times, part of this is due to a response area of only 9 sq miles. It means the likelyhood of us getting there for a fire in the very starting stages is much higher then most departments (Even around us, because of response area size). We find that masking up works for our initial response engine. I understand why it does not work for most others.
    I'm sure you think it's great and works swell. I hope you're never proven wrong.

    Fact is, I'm betting you didn't convince a single soul here that masking up enroute was the right thing to do, but I'm betting you'll think twice yourself next time, even if you'll deny it.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 04-25-2012 at 05:00 PM. Reason: keyboard caused spelling error


  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Imagine what a few seconds of seeing the big picture could do....
    Bones get real. Every fire is the same and nothing could have possibly changed from the last time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giweff View Post
    5 to 10 seconds actually. If you do something with your gloves on like through a ladder then take them off to put you mask on and hood and helmet with chin stap then put your gloves back on you save 10 seconds. If you don't have gloves on and pull them out of you pocket you save about 5 or 6 seconds. It's quite a bit faster i didn't believe it my self until i started timeing people. BUT YOU HAVE TO TRAIN TO GET IT RIGHT.

    So you put your gloves on before you get out of the truck? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me...care to explain? Gloves are the last thing I put on. Plus, when I timed myself masking up with gloves on, it took 15 seconds longer because of the lack of dexterity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Failure to conduct a personal size-up is a huge disservice to you, your family, your Brothers and Sisters and the people you're trying to help.
    I agree totally. You might see something your Officer does not. The more eyes that size up the scene, the better of a total picture you will get.

    On an unrelated note, I had a Recruit ask me yesterday whether or not the majority of guys on the street mask up on the rig or not. I had to chuckle...its like he knew I had asked this question!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    When we get toned out there, we haul ***, we come off the truck packed out face pieces on knowing if its working we are going through the door with tools no hoseline to get people out fast.
    I take it you're assigned to a Ladder Company since you leave the hose on your truck? I know the fire priorities...but it seems to me that when you put water on the fire, 80% of your problems go away.
    Last edited by 78Ted13; 04-25-2012 at 06:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 78Ted13 View Post
    I take it you're assigned to a Ladder Company since you leave the hose on your truck? I know the fire priorities...but it seems to me that when you put water on the fire, 80% of your problems go away.
    No, he's not a trucky either....if he were he would take the can each and every time, fire showing or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    No, he's not a trucky either....if he were he would take the can each and every time, fire showing or not.
    Another good question for debate!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Forget about the radio report, think about yourself and the other firefighters you're operating with. Every clue about the structure you're entering should have a positive effect on safety. Not knowing is always worse, than knowing something. Maybe you're lucky enough to see a porch roof to pop out on from the second floor, but miss the bars over the windows? How about noting the smoke conditions, the fire, what do you think is going on? Do you blindly put 100% of your trust into the officers and people around you? How about noticing the LDH supplying the attack has a big blow out as the hydrants charged? Maybe you'd like to have seen this given a chance?

    Failure to conduct a personal size-up is a huge disservice to you, your family, your Brothers and Sisters and the people you're trying to help. Try this, being honest, get on the engine and have half the crew mask up and the other half not. Pull up to someone's house you can go in and upon arrival have everyone grab their tools and meet inside the front door. Then talk about everything you know about the building and see who can be the most accurate. It's a no brainer.
    Like I said before, it's not something I do often, probably have done it a dozen times in the last 20 years. I am comfortable sizing up a building or scene with a mask. If you do HazMat, you can't always size up a situation before you mask up, so you learn to see everything with a mask on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Like I said before, it's not something I do often, probably have done it a dozen times in the last 20 years. I am comfortable sizing up a building or scene with a mask. If you do HazMat, you can't always size up a situation before you mask up, so you learn to see everything with a mask on.
    If you're arrive on scene of a HAZMAT Incident and you need to be masked up before you get out of the truck...you're way too close. That is unless you're talking about HAZMAT Techs doing recon in the hot zone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    If you do HazMat, you can't always size up a situation before you mask up, so you learn to see everything with a mask on.
    We do Haz-mat and I still appreciate every opportunity to see what I'm getting into before I mask up. Haz-mat calls and active fireground really are hard to compare.

    Really now, you can teach yourself to see things with restricted visibility? How do know what you don't see? maybe your masks are crystal clear and never fog up and have better peripheral vision, but I've worn a few masks and I've yet to see any that can come close to my naked vision.

    Like I proposed before, try a simple test of mask/no mask and see for real what you miss. Just like a million other things we do, just because we get away with them 99 times, doesn't mean that the hundredth won't bite us. We're talking about less than 30 seconds saved and people are arguing the time saved is worth the personal risk? I don't get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Fact is, I'm betting you didn't convince a single soul here that masking up enroute was the right thing to do
    Hell, he hasn't convinced me that he's ever been to a fire...
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Like I said before, it's not something I do often, probably have done it a dozen times in the last 20 years. I am comfortable sizing up a building or scene with a mask. If you do HazMat, you can't always size up a situation before you mask up, so you learn to see everything with a mask on.
    As a hazmat tech who is a part of a hazmat team that also helps instruct hazmat classes...your logic makes no sense.

    That is like saying for water rescue you have to put on a PFD to get close to the water and do your sizeup, so you might as well wear one to every call.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 78Ted13 View Post
    Another good question for debate!
    what's there to debate? you take the can whether you have fire showing or not. period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    what's there to debate? you take the can whether you have fire showing or not. period.
    What fun is there in not arguing something so obvious?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    What fun is there in not arguing something so obvious?
    Ok, lets discuss blue lights.....or smoothbore pipes versus fogs......or leather versus salad bowls......or........
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    Quote Originally Posted by 78Ted13 View Post
    If you're arrive on scene of a HAZMAT Incident and you need to be masked up before you get out of the truck...you're way too close. That is unless you're talking about HAZMAT Techs doing recon in the hot zone?
    Yes, I'm referring to tech's in the hot zone. If you arrive IN the hot zone, you kinda screwed up on your scene size up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    As a hazmat tech who is a part of a hazmat team that also helps instruct hazmat classes...your logic makes no sense.

    That is like saying for water rescue you have to put on a PFD to get close to the water and do your sizeup, so you might as well wear one to every call.
    HazMat events don't always happen in the middle of a freeway where you can get out the bino's at look at it from a distance. Sometimes it's in a building where you don't know exactly what you have until you get in there. And you have to know how to visually size up the scene with a mask on. Your analogy doesn't fit what I'm saying. I'm a tech as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    We do Haz-mat and I still appreciate every opportunity to see what I'm getting into before I mask up. Haz-mat calls and active fireground really are hard to compare.

    Really now, you can teach yourself to see things with restricted visibility? How do know what you don't see? maybe your masks are crystal clear and never fog up and have better peripheral vision, but I've worn a few masks and I've yet to see any that can come close to my naked vision.

    Like I proposed before, try a simple test of mask/no mask and see for real what you miss. Just like a million other things we do, just because we get away with them 99 times, doesn't mean that the hundredth won't bite us. We're talking about less than 30 seconds saved and people are arguing the time saved is worth the personal risk? I don't get it.
    Yes, you can teach yourself to see things with a mask on. I've fired at pop up targets on a rifle range with a gas mask on (which is even harder to see out of than SCBA) and qualified expert. This is not something I'm suggesting you can "get away with", it's something that there are a FEW times where it's possible for a firefighter to mask up on the truck and go directly in the building, sizing up as you go in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    Every member, and I mean every single one, of our fire department has done walkthroughs and responded emergent there for fires and alarms that I could search one of those with my eyes shut and tell you where people put the beds and cribs before I go through the front door. Every unit is the same, just reversed right and left. I can pull utilities there with my eyes shut, I can vent there with my eyes shut. When we get toned out there, we haul ***, we come off the truck packed out face pieces on knowing if its working we are going through the door with tools no hoseline to get people out fast. We have a couple other apartments that are the same deal. Barring less than 5% viability (estimated by driver and officer) upon arrival we will be inside searching with 10 seconds of the truck stopping on scene. Often times we run a 3 man crew, sometimes 4 if we have a off duty guy at the station hanging out.
    What the **** did I just read? I wouldn't mask up knowing I was pulling up to my OWN house much less one my hubris would lead me to believe I could do "eyes closed". I'm glad you can vent with your eyes closed though, wouldn't want to get an eye booboo when you smash every window with your sweet helmet.
    Last edited by tajm611; 04-27-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    there are a FEW times where it's possible for a firefighter to mask up on the truck and go directly in the building, sizing up as you go in.
    Which is, quite possibly, the very worst time to be conducting it.
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