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  1. #1
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    Default Apparatus Grant Questions

    We are anticipating applying for an apparatus for the first time after years of applying for equipment. I've read through last year's program guidance and information on this forum but still had additional questions that I'm hoping someone can give simple answers to. Looking for some help on the requirements if awarded having to do with training/physicals/contract details.

    Since NFPA 1002 (Driver Qualifications) and NFPA 1582 (Physicals) are requirements for an award (unless AFG changes or has changed to a DOT physical, can that training class and books and cost of physicals be included in our apparatus grant?

    Are these costs included with the cost of the apparatus itself or in addition to? In other words, will these items affect how much will be given toward the actual fire truck or have no bearing?

    Under what area/section in the apparatus grant would we be including the those costs?

    Can the cost of equipment to make the apparatus NFPA compliant be included and if so under what area/section?

    What does AFG require for performance bonds, deliveries, etc. and can anyone make any recommendations on what should be included in a contract which would pertain to apparatus awarded under the AFG program?

    Can anyone provide a sample contract that would meet AFG requirements?

    Can anyone provide what FEMA has been awarding for costs associated with the NFPA 1002 training classes, NFPA 1582 physicals, and what the max award might be for a basic 4 door pumper with no foam?

    Is there anything else we should be considering?
    Last edited by KOA74; 04-23-2012 at 04:57 PM.


  2. #2
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    Only need bond if you pay before delivery. If the mfg wants/needs prepayment move along to a more established supplier.

    Add CAFS

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    NFPA 1002 hasn't changed, but they've dropped back to allow CDL/DOT compliant physicals for VFDs, career it's still normally 1852 physicals as part of the employment requirements in most states.

    They all can be included, and they go under the Additional Funding Requested link in Project Request.

    There's a cap of $25k of NFPA 1901 equipment to outfit new apparatus but has to be proof that the stuff on the vehicle being replaced is as old as the vehicle. Meaning mention that's why you're not reusing that stuff.

    4dr pumper with foam still won't get much more than a $300k project, maybe $310k if you're lucky.

    Contract for AFG purchase isn't different than any other purchase you'd be making. Only requirements DHS has are open bid specs and receiving multiple prices.

    Think that covers everything you posted, and if not just shout and we'll add more.

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    What is the smallest community that has been awarded a 75 foot aerial ladder truck over the years? Were there any unusual conditions that helped them get the grant?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochy View Post
    What is the smallest community that has been awarded a 75 foot aerial ladder truck over the years? Were there any unusual conditions that helped them get the grant?
    I don't know that answer. But you need to have more than a few 4+ story buildings and show the hazards that require the need for an aerial.

    The questions on a reviewers mind will be is there a new hazard that has caused this need? Or is it the same old multi-story buildings and the dept has decided an aerial would be nice to have?

    There are very few aerials granted every year, so the narrative has to be very compelling and the need bulletproof.
    Last edited by islandfire03; 05-01-2012 at 01:51 PM.

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    All that I've dug up have been replacing existing aerials, that's the biggest factor besides the tall building question. Anyone not replacing an aerial is an uphill battle since it's not a bread and butter piece in a Rural area like pumpers, brush trucks, and tankers. I think I've only had 1 that wasn't a replacement beat the computer out of the less than 10 I've tried in the past few years. 10 total, not in 1 year that is. Only hit replacements because of the many apps-few dollars-high cost truck thing. That's why the assessment process is key. If there's no other truck that you have a strong number or argument for because the other 3 types are too new, then aim for the bleachers. Doesn't bump any other truck app in that case, it's worth the shot.

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    Thanks for your input, we currently do not have an aerial in our small rural city. We do have one six story apartment complex and about 20 three story building throughout town. We also have a recently constructed 140,000 square foot hospital that is one story in construction. We do have two relatively new engines 1995 & 2005, but only 2500 gpm pumping capacity. Thanks for everyone's help on this and many other questions that people have helped us with the past few years.

  8. #8
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    with those stats on buildings , it would be a very hard sell. A 75 footer isn't going to do much good a your six story apartment bldg and the 3 stories can be laddered.
    The large hospital is a wash as it's single story and should have been sprinklered when built.

    Just how the scoring matrix is going to look at it as an app.

    Like Brian said above: if you have nothing else to try for, go for it. Nothing ventured , nothing lost. Just don't get your hopes up real high on success, and if it gets funded prepare for a really big party.

    PS: do you have a mutual aid aerial available within a reasonable distance? that would make a difference in points also.

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    I am also applying for an apparatus for the first time this year and have a few questions. We are applying to replace a 28 year old pumper. Currently we have 2 28 year old pumpers, 1 25 year old and 2 11 year old. What are our chances for an award? Also, we have been getting prices on stock pumpers and they are around $425k for what we need. What is FEMA allowing for a class a pumper for a budget?

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    AFG only runs with commercial chassis pricing, so basically $300k unless you're putting CAFS on it which will let you grab a little more to cover that.

    Unless you have more than 3 stations you already replaced the older pumpers with the 11 year old ones. Main determinant is the age of the frontline truck in each category. Might be another truck you'd be more competitive for, and if not, spin the wheel anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    AFG only runs with commercial chassis pricing, so basically $300k unless you're putting CAFS on it which will let you grab a little more to cover that.

    Unless you have more than 3 stations you already replaced the older pumpers with the 11 year old ones. Main determinant is the age of the frontline truck in each category. Might be another truck you'd be more competitive for, and if not, spin the wheel anyway.
    Thanks. Yes we have 3 stations. 1 has the 28 year old and 25 year old pumpers and the 7 year old ladder. The other station has the other 28 year old and 11 year old. So the 28 year olds are basically front line pumpers.

    So is it not worth putting in for a class a pumper with an 8 man cab? Because that is what we are trying to replace

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    You can add local match if you want to make up the difference, but to try and get the award that high wouldn't fly. You'd have to have a ton of call data showing you get 8 on every run on that truck in order to justify that many seats. And odds are it probably wouldn't get bought in review anyway and asking that high probably would kick it by computer scoring because of cost-benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    You can add local match if you want to make up the difference, but to try and get the award that high wouldn't fly. You'd have to have a ton of call data showing you get 8 on every run on that truck in order to justify that many seats. And odds are it probably wouldn't get bought in review anyway and asking that high probably would kick it by computer scoring because of cost-benefit.
    So I can request 300 from FEMA and match the other from local budget? We do run full 8 man crews in our vollie dept on the trucks that can hold them, so I can justify that since we have the largest dept in our county. But only running fire calls we do about 360 a year. So the cost benefit I guess really isn't there.

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    Correct on the match. And on the call numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Correct on the match. And on the call numbers.

    Thanks for the help. Our mayor keeps holding out hope that we will get a grant to replace a truck. But we really aren't in the same ballpark with what FEMA is willing to fund. Since we need an 8 man cab,750 gall tank, 1750 gpm pump class A pumper.

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    Does anyone who what the cost benefit is this year? Wasn't last year under $2 per resident or something or per call

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    Truth be told there is no real mark, since it changes based on the number of applicants as to what the average would be across all applicants or even all awarded apps. With trucks kinda hard to make it low in some areas. Tankers for instance start at $180k, and all rural departments with no hydrants need them. Nothing someone with 500 residents can do in order to make their ratio better, it's $300/resident on a basic truck. Hence the reason it's not really something to harp on since it's usually not under anyone's control on a vehicle app.

    For instance in 2011 we hit these 4 among others:
    a pumper for $270k with 2500 residents = $108/resident
    a $295k pumper with 11,000 residents = $27/resident
    a $965k tower with 47,000 residents = $21/resident
    a $250k tanker with 400 residents = $625/resident

    The last one being the main point on why I tend not to spend much time or stress over the ratios. Obviously cost-benefit ratios are a consideration in any grant but sometimes there's no way around the cost no matter the population protected. And in those cases why try and crowbar a project into an app just to keep the ratio down when that makes no sense. Yes it's a gauge on why some apps score higher, but it's far from a hard and fast rule since no 2 departments have identical numbers in all categories.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHChief View Post
    Thanks for the help. Our mayor keeps holding out hope that we will get a grant to replace a truck. But we really aren't in the same ballpark with what FEMA is willing to fund. Since we need an 8 man cab,750 gall tank, 1750 gpm pump class A pumper.
    I know of a department that did exactly what you want. They applied for 250 k for a class A pumper. Then they matched in 160 thousand of their own & borrowed funds to build an 8 man custom cab 2000 gpm warwagon.
    Nice truck , but after delivery they found out it won't make the turns into some of their smaller roads and long driveways. Way too much overhang front & rear.

    Moral of the story: Get your mayor to commit in writing to a large match $$$ to improve your chances

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