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  1. #21
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deputybuxton View Post
    the concept of a junior being on the engine really gets me.....I have been 'bumped' from riding on many occaisions just because a junior or two has jumped in because they get to the station first.....
    Sounds like your organization could stand to tune up their SOP's.......Allowing Juniors over more qualified senior members? Thats a load of bullschit. Our SOP states that Junior Members may ride 1. With the Officer's permission and 2. if there are availablee seats. If any senior FF's show up, they can bump the Juniors.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."


  2. #22
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    or retired guys that still are able and want to help. or guys with a medical issue that precludes them from being a FF. or wives that don't want to be FF's but still help their husbands and their departments.

    I'm guessing you have very little experience with an actual fire police system.
    None, and more than likely I never will. We have enough trouble finding volunteers for the fire department, much less for something less involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    Bones..I responded with a long post but my internet took a crap. I would just like to add to your post.

    I think that there are correct me if I'm wrong 12 or 18 states that recognize "fire police" so the concept might be new to some people.

    Fire police can be very useful when it comes to traffic control, scene security at larger incidents (working fires, multi-car accidents, haz-mat scenes, or emergencies that have turned into crime scenes where crews would be on location for a longer period of time.) The fire police reduce the need of highly trained fire, rescue,haz-mat trained personnel to provide traffic control or scene security which in turn allows them to focus on the mission and not on weather or not a car will hit them, or a by stander will wonder into the hot zone and get hurt and possibly bringing a lawsuit up. I live in an area where we have a local regional police, and state police but as we all know budget cuts have stretched these resources thin..and to have a police officer or a trooper standing directing traffic when he can be collecting evidence or taking witness statements is a waste of their time and our resources. It also reduces the need to have other officers/troopers cover down and leave their coverage area.

    My grandfather served as a fire police officer, He was also a chief in his home town for years, a firefighter, EMT and once he wasn't physically able to throw ladders or go inside to fight a fire he did the fire police thing. He ALWAYS dressed as professional as possible, conducted himself in a professional manner, and never had a blue light or anything else that might be considered "whacker". He was instrumental in fighting for workman's comp. for Pa volunteer firefighters and was a big player and advocate for other legislation to benefit the fire service in Pa. So, to call him, or any of his brothers weird, or whatever for responding to just "direct traffic" is an insult. It's an insult to him, for the years and the service he provided his community and Pa, as well as to the many other fire police personnel who do the same.

    Now, I fully understand that there are a lot of "whackers" out there who are bad publicity, but that comes down to the individual and the organization which he/she represents.

    This attitude comes from a lack of knowledge, ignorance to an extent on the concept of fire police..It's the same ignorance that career firefighters put on volly firefighters. I can guarantee you that I am certified to a level that is the same, or greater then most of the paid firefighters in PA. The only reason why you are paid and I am not is because there are budget cuts and I can't get hired if people are being laid off. Drop the attitude, understand what is going on, and then make your judgment.
    Sorry to have offended you. The fact is, around here we have real police to handle all of the things you mentioned. Do your fire police carry guns and have arrest powers? Are they their own intentity or does their budget come from the fire department's?

    Fact is outside of PA they pretty much don't exist.
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  3. #23
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    Hey Thanks for all of your responses.
    First I would like to say that yes recruitment is a big issue with our company. We have been trying to recruit more members but it doesn't seem to be working. We have actually been talking about a merger with a neighboring company because of our lack of manpower. On almost all calls we have a second company dispatched for mutual aid however we are very spread out and can take a lot of time to respond. We only actually have 5 ff's that are certified for interior attack and only one FF1.
    I would also like to point out that I was not in any way trying to bash fire police with my previous comment.
    My last question is what do you guys think about it being allowed for me to run a blue light when I arrive on location or a amber light instead. Again only when I arrive on scene.
    Going back to the fire police topic I would just like to give you one example. Last week we got a call for a brush fire with a company that we haven't run with in a while. I pulled up to where the Fire Police had the road closed and told them who I was and what company I run with. My gear was in the back and wasn't initially visible to them. I ended up actually arguing with them to let me in and they eventually called my chief to ask him if I was with the Fire co. A single Blue rotator would have allowed me to go right through without having to get out and waste time to show them my gear and then have them call my cheif.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    None, and more than likely I never will. We have enough trouble finding volunteers for the fire department, much less for something less involved.



    Sorry to have offended you. The fact is, around here we have real police to handle all of the things you mentioned. Do your fire police carry guns and have arrest powers? Are they their own intentity or does their budget come from the fire department's?

    Fact is outside of PA they pretty much don't exist.
    Actually that's not true.

    They exist, and are very common in at least NY, NJ and Vermont.

    No they do not carry guns and cannot arrest but, at least in NY, they do have the power to detain until law enforcement arrives.

    They are quite useful and are a very important part of many VFDs.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #25
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    A department nameplate on the vehicle may have accomplished the same thing, or a department-issued ID.

    Fact is junior members should not have blue lights, and if you have read any of my other posts, you would know that I oppose any lights for any volunteers. I have been a volunteer for 33 years, and honestly have found that a light does not significantly reduce response time and in fact, generally causes more problems than they solve with the resulting MVAs and bad public relations caused by members that abuse the privilege.
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  6. #26
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    Thanks a lot I hadn't even thought about a nameplate. Thats a really good idea. and I'm also not so much concerned with response times because I'd say that about half the time I respond I don't even see another car but more so with gaining accsess to a scene and visibility once I'm there. However I don't know how much a single rotator would increase my visibility to other traffic. I just fear that one day my jeep is gonna get hit because someone couldn't see it from inside a truck.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually that's not true.

    They exist, and are very common in at least NY, NJ and Vermont.

    No they do not carry guns and cannot arrest but, at least in NY, they do have the power to detain until law enforcement arrives.

    They are quite useful and are a very important part of many VFDs.
    How are they gonna detain them if they don't have guns and arrest powers?? We really have no need for them in Ohio. We have the real thing, and barring that, parking the truck across the road works real good.

  8. #28
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    I'd rather have a LEO out patrolling than sitting and directing traffic.

    No, fire police do not have guns nor arrest powers. They do have the authority to redirect traffic as needed. They can close roads. They can change the direction of traffic. They can control traffic regardless of traffic signals. Yes, it is a certified position in the state of NJ...they have to attend training, test, and get a certificate from the state.

    As for hard to get volunteers....as I said in my post above....these are men/women that can't/won't do the job of FF....so it's not taking FF's away from the FD.

    There are times where the Police Department will call for the Fire Police to assist them with traffic duties...pretty good sign that they are a respected organization and not a bunch of whackers.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    We have the real thing, and barring that, parking the truck across the road works real good.
    We have the "real thing" here in my area of NY, too. And if we're lucky, we might get two of 'em at an MVA (MVC, TC, etc). Controlling traffic at the intersection of two fairly busy state highways takes more that two cops (not to mention that one of 'em has to write a report), and if we decide to close both roads entirely, it's gonna take at least four.

    Most days, that's all the sheriff has on the road. The state police aren't much better off.

    We've been known to call mutual aid to assist with traffic control. We've only got three rigs on the front line, and two of 'em will be tied up at the scene. In fact, it's not at all unusual to see blue light equipped POV's used to block the road.

    And, as has been pointed out in another thread, as well as here, it's a place where the folks who can't necessarily take an active suppression role can be "put out to pasture."

    We've been known to hold a scene for several hours in the case of a fatal accident, so the cops can concentrate on their reconstruction tasks.

    And our fire police also get called out for such tasks as directing traffic during power outages, etc.

    As for blue lights and juniors - I don't think so. I'm not of the school of thought that juniors should be limited to activities at the firehouse, but there's no reason they should be in a hurry to get to an active scene.

    A bumper placard or issued ID card should suffice for getting past roadblocks.
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  10. #30
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I'd rather have a LEO out patrolling than sitting and directing traffic.

    No, fire police do not have guns nor arrest powers. They do have the authority to redirect traffic as needed. They can close roads. They can change the direction of traffic. They can control traffic regardless of traffic signals. Yes, it is a certified position in the state of NJ...they have to attend training, test, and get a certificate from the state.

    As for hard to get volunteers....as I said in my post above....these are men/women that can't/won't do the job of FF....so it's not taking FF's away from the FD.

    There are times where the Police Department will call for the Fire Police to assist them with traffic duties...pretty good sign that they are a respected organization and not a bunch of whackers.
    To me it sounds like a pretty good sign you are short of LEOs in your area. Between county, city and state departments here we get around 10 on a MVC scene.

    In reality these guys have no power what so ever other than to direct traffic. DOT can do that.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    To me it sounds like a pretty good sign you are short of LEOs in your area. Between county, city and state departments here we get around 10 on a MVC scene.

    In reality these guys have no power what so ever other than to direct traffic. DOT can do that.


    Wow,


    I don't much experience with the fire police but sure wish we had them or a unit like them here in SC where my department is at. In the county I live in there are 600+ sq miles of land. There are roughly 12 sheriffs deputies that patrol that land (when no one is out sick) on any given shift, they do not direct traffic or close roads. I can't tell you how many highway patrol we got but it's less than 12 for the same area. If you have a wreck that is outside city lines, good luck getting a hp there within an hour most times....thats one guy, within an hour. If we get stuff on the highway we usually get two hp and us or a mutual aid department supplies traffic control until scene is cleared (including fatality wrecks where we have spent 4-5 hours+ on traffic duty).


    I hate it, I wish we had a unit that would help with this problem.


    Sidenote, we have had to call DOT before...it sucks..response time sucks too...lol

  12. #32
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    To me it sounds like a pretty good sign you are short of LEOs in your area. Between county, city and state departments here we get around 10 on a MVC scene.

    In reality these guys have no power what so ever other than to direct traffic. DOT can do that.
    County has sherrifs....won't see one at traffic duty ever. State police? No chance.

    DOT - ya, in about 2 hours.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  13. #33
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    It would seem to me that the issue with getting the Fire Police to recognize you is ID Cards. If questioned you could present this Identification to the Fire Police and it can also be used as Accountability on scene if they can be scanned. Just My Two cents and all
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  14. #34
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    Just to put something into perspective....

    Federal Air Marshal= on the ground, can only detain until law enforcement arrive
    Fire Police= Can detain until law enforcement arrive

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    Fire Police= Can detain until law enforcement arrive
    But then again, anyone can detain until law enforcement arrives.
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    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    One of his main issues is not being able to get to scenes because of fire police not knowing he is with the department. I took this as an opportunity to take a jab at the fire police, seeing as I think it is a crazy concept that does nothing but breed a bunch of whackers. If it was that great the rest of the country would do it too.

    It takes a disturbed individual to volunteer to come direct traffic all the time.
    So pretty much typical deputy sheriff minus the badge, gun (on which marginally qualified), and wannabeRambo attitude?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    DOT can do that.
    Wow - thanks! I haven't laughed that hard in years.

    DOT - responding to an accident scene to direct traffic. Man - you better lay off the 'shrooms.

    Last time I saw DOT respond to an incident for traffic control it was at least three hours into the incident (major power lines down over the interstate - had to wait for the power company to locate and deliver a tall enough pole to replace the one that failed). All they did was lay out a bunch of traffic cones to direct traffic over to the exit. I'm not so sure they even stuck around afterwards, unless it was so they wouldn't have to be recalled to pick up the cones when it was over. Fire and police (mostly fire) handled traffic duties.

    It's rare to see the traditional "whacker" crowd as fire police. It's almost always the "retired" firefighters who have put in their time on the front lines but who still want a piece of the action. Give 'em a vest, flashlight (with traffic cone) and flag and put 'em to work.
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  18. #38
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    Oh boy, here we go again!

    No sir, don't like it. Don't like it at all.
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  19. #39
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Juniors with blue lights? Absolutely not. Period, no room for debate. You are NOT an adult. Legally, emotionally, physically... in every sense of the word. It's not an insult, just a fact.

    You can argue that most 18 year olds are no better, and you would be right... except they are legally an adult. There is a difference.

    Fire Police. As long as they are trained and follow recognized guidelines about traffic safety, are a VALUABLE commodity. Seriously, they free up police to do the other tasks they need to do.

    Construction and DOT guys also do this same work.... you don't need a cop to direct traffic.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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  20. #40
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    What I want to know what is the freaking point of blue lights in the first place? They do not give you the legal right of way or make you exempt from any traffic laws so why even bother? Why assume anymore risk? I have never understood the "courtesy light" concept...

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