1. #1
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,064

    Default Apparatus Bay CO Detectors...Code?

    Some of you know we are in the process of building two new fire stations. Our builder is telling us that a CO detector which cuts the ventilation fans on automatically has to be in place due to building codes. If this gets done we will be the only station out of 20 in oue r county to have one (some of the other 20 have been built within the last 3-4 years). I have looked through both the IBC and IMC books and can find nothing pertaining to fire stations, just indoor parking garages.

    Can anyone shed some light on this?

    Thanks!
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    3,902

    Default

    they were installed in one of our new stations, but weere taken out and never heard the reason

    codes are general in nature sometimes

    looks like IMC 404 says yes you should have one, but does not call out carbon monoxide detectors

    will there be an exhaust extraction sysem???

    so if it looks like a duck it is a duck so a fire station is a parking garage

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Our builder is telling us that a CO detector which cuts the ventilation fans on automatically has to be in place due to building codes
    If the builder is claiming this it's up to him to cite chapter and verse from whatever code he's referring to.

    What stage of planning are you in? Has the AHJ reviewed the plans yet? The AHJ, whether it's the Building Official or the Fire Marshal, is the one who has the final say on what is and isn't required.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,064

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    they were installed in one of our new stations, but weere taken out and never heard the reason

    codes are general in nature sometimes

    looks like IMC 404 says yes you should have one, but does not call out carbon monoxide detectors

    will there be an exhaust extraction sysem???

    so if it looks like a duck it is a duck so a fire station is a parking garage
    And if you keep reading it also says any offices, ticket booths, etc. that are connected to said garage have to be positively pressurized. The living quarters, kitchen, bathrooms and offices definitely are not positvely pressurized.

    Somewhere in that chapter is a list of occupancies that this code applies to. Fire station or anything of the like is no where in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    If the builder is claiming this it's up to him to cite chapter and verse from whatever code he's referring to.

    What stage of planning are you in? Has the AHJ reviewed the plans yet? The AHJ, whether it's the Building Official or the Fire Marshal, is the one who has the final say on what is and isn't required.
    We are 3 weeks from opening the building. We knew all along that the spot on the wall where they mounted this huge box was going to be a switch for the fan, but we ordered and planned for a gear rack to overlap it. When it showed up on the wall is when we started asking questions.

    I for one don't want the hassle of one more monitor that has to be calbrated and I want the usable wall space back. Not to mention the cost difference between this and a normal switch.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Somewhere in that chapter is a list of occupancies that this code applies to. Fire station or anything of the like is no where in there.
    The apparatus bay in a fire station is a storage use like any other garage. Depending on how it's separated from the rest of the building, you might have a mixed storage/business/residential occupancy.

    I for one don't want the hassle of one more monitor that has to be calbrated and I want the usable wall space back. Not to mention the cost difference between this and a normal switch.
    I don't blame you. I don't know what the prevailing code is there but the only one I have handy here at work is the 2009 IBC and I didn't see any requirement there at a quick glance. I'd definitely require the builder to back up the assertion that it's required and verify it with the AHJ.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,064

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    The apparatus bay in a fire station is a storage use like any other garage. Depending on how it's separated from the rest of the building, you might have a mixed storage/business/residential occupancy.



    I don't blame you. I don't know what the prevailing code is there but the only one I have handy here at work is the 2009 IBC and I didn't see any requirement there at a quick glance. I'd definitely require the builder to back up the assertion that it's required and verify it with the AHJ.
    My issue is that they are playing the "it is in the code book" card for why it has to be there yet like I stated before, the rest of the building (which is seperated by a block wall) is not pressurized like the code says (whose is?). I don't want someone preaching to me about the code saying one thing if they don't want to follow the whole thing.

    We are a small city department. The larger county fire marshall does all building inspections and issues certificates of occupancy, etc. Would we be the AHJ or would they?
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    texas usa
    Posts
    207

    Default

    Ahj sounds like it depends on who the city gave that authority to, which it sounds like is the county

    1. Does the truck bay have an exhaust removal system ???

    Like this:::

    Fire Exhaust Removal Systems

    2. Was the requirement for the detectors shown or a written requirement on the approved plans?



    The code does not list every type of occupancy that a code applies to but if is close to the general example/ definition than the code section applies

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,064

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fire5555 View Post
    Ahj sounds like it depends on who the city gave that authority to, which it sounds like is the county

    1. Does the truck bay have an exhaust removal system ???

    Like this:::

    Fire Exhaust Removal Systems

    2. Was the requirement for the detectors shown or a written requirement on the approved plans?



    The code does not list every type of occupancy that a code applies to but if is close to the general example/ definition than the code section applies
    No, the station does not have an exhaust removal system. In fact, not one of the 24 stations in this county do. They all just have exhaust fans (without monitors) and they work just fine when needed.

    I don't know about anyone else out there, but if we are cranking a truck the doors are up. Which makes this whole thing make that much less sense. Regardless of what the code says.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    My issue is that they are playing the "it is in the code book" card for why it has to be there
    That's typically a game people play when either (a) they don't really know if it's in the code or not, or (b) they know it isn't in the code and are intentionally trying to screw you over. The ball is in their court where proof is concerned. If they can't cite chapter and verse, I'd call bulls|t on them.

    We are a small city department. The larger county fire marshall does all building inspections and issues certificates of occupancy, etc. Would we be the AHJ or would they?
    That I can't help you with. It should be defined somewhere in your adopted building code. I'd guess that it's probably the county FM since that's who does the inspections. That would make sense since GA has a pretty strong system of county government. (I'm originally from Chatham County, BTW. Savannah.)
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    texas usa
    Posts
    207

    Default

    Sorry got into code mode

    There should be an appeals process, to See if the code was interpreted correctly

    Is the architect or the fire marshal saying they are needed???

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,870

    Default

    What ventilation fans are to "cut in" upon activation of the CO detector? There's a huge difference in exhaust fumes and each of the subsequent chemicals in them with an extraction system regardless of bay door opening. We had them added to our station and it's night and day better. IMO it's short sighted to not have the removal systems in newly constructed stations. It's sounds like they're making the ventilation system into an extraction system by utilizing the detector driven switches. I'm pretty sure our's uses exhaust pressure to kick on the fan motor as sensed through the attached hose.

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    3,902

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,412

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    That's typically a game people play when either (a) they don't really know if it's in the code or not, or (b) they know it isn't in the code and are intentionally trying to screw you over. The ball is in their court where proof is concerned. If they can't cite chapter and verse, I'd call bulls|t on them.
    I am a Building Code Official in the State of Pennsylvania, while I cannot speak for your jurisdiction, Deputy is absolutely correct ***in this case, the burden of proof lies on the Contractor- make them produce the legislating document showing the requirement. If you want to take it one step further, call the responsible party at your AHJ and find out first if they are required with the corresponding code and section, and then call the contractor; just dont tell him you know the answer, let him dig his own hole or come clean about it.

    As for who is responsible for the decision within your AHJ (again I'm from Pa, so it could be different for you) but I would find out who was the Plans Examiner that approved your plans for construction and start with him/her. Chances are he/she may also be the building inspector who is doing the conatruction inspections and the Final Use & Occupancy Approval Inspection. See what they have to say about it. Are the CO Detectors even in the plans? How about in the project manual if one exists? If the Plans Examiner didnt overlook them as a requirement, he/she would probably have asked for "cut sheets" or manufacturer information on them to verify they meet code.

    ***Ultimately, the requirement lies on the AHJ, but it sounds here like they either missed it or are not requiring it alltogether. Fire Stations have always been tricky as far as Buildng Codes, but basically they are mixed R1/R3 (depending on how they AHJ rules the "residents") and S use facilities. Have a large meeting room or banquet hall?? Throw in an A use as well.

    If I were in your shoes, I would call the AHJ and find out if they are needed. If the AHJ says they are not needed, I would call the contractor and tell him to cough up the code section and if he cant to insert the CO detectors sideways up is rectum. But thats me.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 04-26-2012 at 10:53 AM.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,686

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    ...We are 3 weeks from opening the building. We knew all along that the spot on the wall where they mounted this huge box was going to be a switch for the fan, but we ordered and planned for a gear rack to overlap it. When it showed up on the wall is when we started asking questions.
    ...
    I have to ask. If you knew this was going in all along...why did it get to only 3 weeks away without an answer?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,064

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I have to ask. If you knew this was going in all along...why did it get to only 3 weeks away without an answer?
    It wasn't until about 2 weeks ago the box showed up on the wall. Until then we just knew the switch for the fans was going in that spot. We expected a normal wall switch, and measured and ordered our gear racks as such.

    If it sheds any light on the experience we have had, they also asked for exact specifications on the cascade system, air compressor, turnout gear washer and turnout gear dryer to make sure they provided the correct power and plug ins where said items were supposed to be located. The washer and dryer were delivered yesterday and come to find out...they were wired wrong.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  16. #16
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    texas usa
    Posts
    207

    Default

    Does the station have a vehicle exhaust system that hooks up to the truck exhaust?????????

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,064

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fire5555 View Post
    Does the station have a vehicle exhaust system that hooks up to the truck exhaust?????????
    No, just the ceiling mounted fan.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,686

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    It wasn't until about 2 weeks ago the box showed up on the wall. Until then we just knew the switch for the fans was going in that spot. We expected a normal wall switch, and measured and ordered our gear racks as such.

    If it sheds any light on the experience we have had, they also asked for exact specifications on the cascade system, air compressor, turnout gear washer and turnout gear dryer to make sure they provided the correct power and plug ins where said items were supposed to be located. The washer and dryer were delivered yesterday and come to find out...they were wired wrong.
    That is a bummer. Never had the experience of "designing" a new building. Seems like it may not be so much fun.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Bio Detectors
    By Bryan5871 in forum Hazardous Materials General Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-11-2008, 03:28 PM
  2. Apparatus Rolling Code 3
    By ffbam24 in forum Emergency Vehicle Operations
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 04-09-2004, 10:57 AM
  3. Detectors
    By Firediver in forum Fire Prevention and Life Safety
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-07-2002, 04:30 PM
  4. International code vs. Uniform code
    By The Snake Man in forum Fire Prevention and Life Safety
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-06-2001, 11:16 PM
  5. My own code or the Uniform Fire Code.
    By The Snake Man in forum Fire Prevention and Life Safety
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-26-2000, 06:16 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register