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Does your department utilize tow truck operators to perform anything more then stabilization (example: using the tow truck to pull a steering column from an entrapped victim)??
If so, do you have a policy regarding this procedure? What can you see as the pros/cons of performing the listed procedure?
The short answer is no, we don't even use the towing companies for stabilization. They remove the vehicle and clean up after we are done, but don't participate in the extrication. 2 basic reasons for this, they are not trained and they don't generally arrive until after we are done.
In general, I would have a problem with using the tow truck for pulling a steering column. I would seem like there is not enough sensitivity to the control mechanism and that it would be difficult to control the pull. Also, positioning the truck properly could be difficult.
I can't say that I would never use a tow truck, but I can't think of a situation where it would give us any capability that we don't already have.
Just to add a third, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be using a typical tow truck winch cable for a critical operation. When you pull a steering wheel with a chain and hydraulic tool and something fails the only stored energy rebounding that you typically have to worry about is in the partially displaced steering column. When a cable parts it's bad news all around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eng34FF
We use the tow truck and it's operators when appropriate. We don't have any winching capabilities. Few weeks ago we used the tow truck to assist with stabilization on a rolled over vehicle. We have used them in the past to move a car from under a tractor trailer so we could get to the victims.
As for pulling a steering column? Nope, not something I see them getting used for.
As for their not being trained....the ones I deal with are all certified in towing operations and are repair shop guys. They know more about hooking up and moving a vehicle than we do. They know more about vehicle construction than we do. I understand that is not the case everywhere, but for us...that can be some very useful knowledge.
I'd have no problem letting the guys from O'Hare towing in Chicago assist with a scene...:D
Oooo, I don't know, with all the swearing those fellows do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones42
I think it all depends on the situation. First, can you get tools into cut safely and does the fire department have people with the training and the proper winching equipment to remove the steering column from the victim safely. I am a volunteer firefighter and I am also a trained, professional roll back operator. A lot of times controlling the winch cable is all in how you hook up to the vehicle. You can have a fair amount of control if you know how to hook up properly.
I don't know if I would be comfortable removing a steering column from a trapped victim but it would depend on the situation. If it came down to using the tow truck's winch line or letting the victim die because you can't get them out, I would be willing to make the attempt if a fire officer requested it. Furthermore, a winch line usually does not just fail or part with no warning. Any trained and expirienced tow operator will see the warning signs and replace the winch line immediately.
The bottom line, in my opinion, is that it should all come down to the departments protocols and SOP's/SOG's. Every departments policies are different. But we must also remember that our motivations and goals are the same, protecting life and property.
I can't ever see using a tow truck to pull a steering column unless you absolutely are in BFE or Alaska and the tow trucks there and hydraulic tools are an hour away. Any dept with basic rescue tools should be able to pull a steering column, and do it much safer and effectively than a tow truck.
I have seen where they were useful for pulling a car out from under a truck once it's been lifted. And if a car's over an embankment, the long cable is usefull for securing the vehicle. We have a good relationship with towing companies when we need them for heavy trucks. They can be invaluable, especially if you have a truck over a railing on a bridge. We don't carry that kind of equipment. One of the companies even has a 50 ton crane.
Then obviously you've never trained with GOOD Tow truck operators or you would find a LOT of things they can do to make your life easier and scene SAFER/ T.C.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eng34FF
Snap a winch rope on a STEERING COLUMN? Really? I'm NOT a fan of pulling columns PERIOD but pulling one with a Tow truck is WAY easier and safer than most folks using a spreader. With a tow truck you can adjust anchor point,pull point,lift point and speed.....AND.....Do it at the SAME time. NOT possible with a spreader. Better go to a Big Rig rescue training or a Tow Truck operator training to see what the new machines can do. IF USED PROPERLY,they will make your scenes SAFER,you will rescue your patients QUICKER and your PR ratings will go WAY up. In case you haven't been paying attention Cross training with these folks is "IN" today and the programs are GREAT and getting better every year. A TRAINED operator in a modern hydraulic Tow truck can do some stuff a FD can only dream of doing. Does this apply to all of you? Probably not but DO consider involving any GOOD,reliable towers you have in your area in your training and planning, you may well be surprised what they can do,Quote:
Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal
Attachment 22025 This is a Pic of a Leaking,LOADED.propane bobtail with the rear axle ripped out. Because of the angle there was NO WAY to evacuate the product. Let's see you do this one with what you carry on your rig. To mitigate this accident,we were 20 minutes rigging and recovering plus time to pump off the product once it was uprighted. WITHOUT the tow truck? IMPOSSIBLE job.
Yes, you are correct. I have never trained with a GOOD tow truck operator, thus my concern with using them for the extrication. Given the right situation, I would consider using them, but have yet to run into a situation that we needed them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue101
Also, if we did train with a tow truck operator, there is not guarantee that we would get that particular operator, or even that towing company.
True enough. But if you don't put forth an effort or invitation,two things are a GIVEN. You'll NEVER know and neither side gains. As both a Tow company owner and Deputy Chief here,we both use the resource and KNOW what that resource has for equipment and operators. ALL my operators are cross trained and professional extricators. Win win for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eng34FF
I would (almost) NEVER use a tow truck to pull a steering column. With spreaders and a chain, I can see exactly what I'm doing to the column and what effect it's having on the patient. Tow trucks don't have lights and sirens either. Extrication is OUR job. Just about any auto extrication should doable by most every fire dept. There are exceptions, and that's what they should be. Heavy and commercial vehicles is another animal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue101
Maybe YOURS don't. Mine DOES. Difference is I've done these BEFORE the FD had tools. LONG before in fact. Quite simply,I can pull a column while you are trying to FIND your chains. NOT every Tow operator can,but we can. Quickly and consistantly. Winch a car off a tree for better access. Stabilize a vehicle. LIFT a vehicle in less time than you can drag your bags or jacks out. AGAIN, these are PRACTICED skills with FD involvement. WATCH carefully,this "bag of tricks" is sweeping the country. If you haven't seen it in your area,YOU WILL. Your top towing operators will buy in, it's GOOD for business. And GOOD for the FD's they serve.FWIW, I have been involved in using Tow trucks for RESCUE, since 1975,long before it became a saleable idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsb
Maybe back in your little 'holler it works, but not here. We have no idea who we'd get on a car accident. As for finding the chains, that's a rediculous remark. Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue101
And then there's the liability issue. Who's liable if Bubba the tow truck driver screws up? And again, tow trucks don't have lights and sirens, it takes time to get them there.
Unless it's a large commercial vehicle with extensive entrapment, we do our own work.
Let's go back and answer the questions WITHOUT the personalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsb
To the original OP,yes tow trucks can be used successfully in vehicle rescue.
To FF34,if you are one of the fortunate few that have everything you need to handle extrication within your agency by yourself without outside help,congratulations, you are one of a select few.
To Dep Marshall,we have many interesting debates and I expect that to continue. As you can pull a column with a come along with a 3/16's cable,I'm not too concerned about a 3/8ths IWRC snapping doing the same job.
To John,it isn't just in my lil holler. Let's look at several ways a tow truck can have a timely response: In many states they are considered Emergency vehicles and can have lights and sirens. In the places they can't,they have been offered a Police escort when needed for Rescue OR start them when you are started. Problem solved. On the liability issue: I probably carry more liability coverage than some FD's (we are a Certified Haz Mat Tow/Recover) and with the training certs we have our "exposure" will be no more than yours working the same job. Do you need a Tow truck on every accident? Can a tow truck WORK every accident? Well,yes and no. You will need one, the casualty isn't going to fly or drive away. The chain comment may have been a bit extreme BUT, consider this. MOST spreaders aren't stored with the chain attachments on them. By the time you get them set up with what you need for anchor points,cribbing, and the like, a FAIR Tow truck operator can have the column pulled. Done it both ways many times. You don't want to explore options for your "toolbox" that's fine but let me ask: WHY won't you know who you're going to get? Since you refer to Tow operators as Bubba,I'm guessing you don't have a WORKING relationship with them. This we can handle it ourselves mentality seems to work for some but what do you do if you CAN'T? Got a plan B? IN WRITING? Every jurisdiction is different and what works for me may not work for you. HERE,if I want a specfic company or piece of equipment for a RESCUE, our dispatch center will get whatever I ask for. If it isn't available,the next qualified will be assigned. Sorry if I came off a bit wrong, but I hear way too often: That won't work, you can't do that, by folks that have never been exposed, aren't trained and don't know. WHEN, IN FACT, Yes you CAN, and YES it works, very effectively.
We have Genesis tools on both my depts, and many others have them. We don't need to attach the chains to the spreaders to pull a column, they're designed to catch the chain. You just need a 4x4 to run from the hood to the roof, hook the chain over the spreaders and around the column and lift.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rescue101
No tow trucks in Ohio that I've ever heard or seen have lights (other that amber) and sirens. There are a multidtude of tow companies around here, but only a few do heavy recovery. We work with those when we need them. Of course not all tow truck drivers are Bubba's, but they're out there. We have plenty of Rescue units around here, and what ever cribbing or extra materials that I'd need. Most everytime a heavy commercial vehicle is involved a second heavy rescue is dispatched. We have the capability to handle virtually any passenger automobile extrication there is around here barring some weird situation. That is why we don't use tow trucks. Like I said, commercial vehicles are another animal.
Rescue101: They have Genesis at "Closed Mind Fire Dept"...problem solved!
JohnsB: Oh, we have lights and siren on 2 of our heavies. First due response for the interstate. HazMat certified. Carry airbags, cushions and a combi-tool on one of the units. Almost all of us are fire fighters too...and not a one is named "Bubba"
Fair enough. Quite a few rescue Engines around here, not so many " Heavy rescues". There have been quite a few Fire companies that have attended Big Rig rescue and quite a few more trained by yours truly. Just about everyone around here will call us if they have or percieve they have an "extended"or unusual extrication if for nothing more than a technical resource. I invite you to check out some of my friends websites: Big Truck rescue ( Buffalo/Syracuse NY ) Howard "Scooby" Egan and Jeff Martin, Big Rig rescue,Billy Leach Jr. and T&R rescue solutions, Kevin Romer Bath NY. Some good stuff in there regardless if you choose to use it in your operation. Keep in mind that stuff that applies in Ohio is not necessarily representative of the rest of the free world,no more than Maine law applies there. Everybody does stuff different and if you think I'm yanking your chain(pun intended) take a ride to Upstate NY or some of the other areas where they are using this stuff ( Tow truck assist) and see what you think. Or not as you see fit.
You might want to enlighten John that the " Heavies" you speak of are TOW TRUCKS, not rolling toolboxes. Genesis are OK, not my favorite but some think you can't do extrication with anything else. I'm not that fussy,when I started it was tow trucks,hacksaws,portopower and hand tools. Hydraulics are GREAT,regardless of mfg.