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I am in a sort of "Debate" with some local law enforcement people about the real need to disconnect car batteries on crashed cars. Some of them have real heartburn with disconnecting power at all, and others have heartburn with cutting the cables. Their argument is "How many cars have burnt up after a crash", "how many times has an airbag popped after the crash", and so on and so forth.
Any help would be appreciated!!!
Honest question for them......why not?
Have cars started on fire after an accident? Yes.
Have airbags popped after an accident? Yes. Do a google search on Dayton OH and the first recorded airbag inflation. They didn't disconnect the battery. Watch the 2 guys that hit with the bag.
As to whether to cut or disconnect....depends. We try to disconnect first but if causing a delay....we cut.
Well, let them volunteer to sit behind an airbag that hasn't deployed while you leave the battery connected. I don't know of any standard or SOP that says not to disconnect the battery after an accident, especially when we will be cutting. I know of at least 1 instance in our county where the leaking fuel caught fire. Granted it was not from a discharge from the battery, but why take any chances. Show them the video of the Dayton airbag incident to get their attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by bcjack
My question is, what is there issue with disconnecing the power? The only reason I can think of is that it may take longer to remove the vehicle. That would be insignificant if you are loading on a rollback, but may make a difference if the vehicle is drivable.
As far as cutting vs disconnecing. I prefer to disconnect, making sure the terminal is well away from the battery terminal, to cutting. That way, if you do need to re-connect them for some reason, you can. If I can't get access due to damage, I also have no problems cutting the cables. If the car is drivable, I will also try to avoid cutting cables.
If patient care is still a priority and D/Cing the cables would cause delay, they get cut. Also if the car is totaled, don't waste time with tools. Just cut them.
I'd tell them to put down the doughnut and go direct traffic. If they had scored higher on the test they could've become a Firefighter. It's none of their damn business how we do our job. We make it safe for ourselves and the patient, in whatever fashion necessary. Wether we cut or disconnect a battery or shut down an entire interstate highway, their job is to provide traffic control and investigate the crash when we're done. When we're done, we'll give control of the scene to them. Until then, the scene is ours and we'll do what we need to do, how we need to do it.
Yea, we have a small bag with a few wrenches, a cutter, screwdriver and flashlight. "Crash kit" goes to the hood and one of the FF's will do what he can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bones42
Because what's REALLY important is not disconnecting the battery on a vehicle like this.
Attachment 22014
"See if it'll crank, Clem!"
Can't really add anything else that hasn't been said. It isn't their problem to worry about it. I'm just glad to see Law Enforcement in other areas have become the "all knowing" public safety gurus! It is something new they are putting in the kool-aid they make them drink at the academy. The last year or so it seems like we have had more issues that the previous 23 combined. I'm not sure what is going on.
Hey
Disconnecting the battery always has been a debate, heres my thoughts.
Firstly if its accessible we should ideally disconnect it, if its in-accessible we work around this with control measures such as safety distances for airbag deployment paths etc.
Some things to note, we need to use vehicle systems prior to disconnecting, if we disconnect it we can always re attach it should we need to use some of the vehicle systems, electric seats and such later on, if we cut it this will not be possible.
Vehicles can be fitted with vibrating seats, are these still working would we know, if the battery is disconnected this will isolate the seat, a vibrating seat will prevent internal blood clotting.
If the car is fitted with and easy get in and out feature, that will need isolating via the battery, we don't want that activating inadvertently.
As a rule of thumb, disconnect the battery when accessible prior to any cutting spreading or ramming. Utilise power systems first. Cutting the wire is an option, but we should be looking at carrying out tasks in a more controlled manner, that also leaves options open during the rescue.
We have these issues at times, it comes down to lack of interagency training and awareness of each others needs, in the end its a casualty centred rescue, with procedures put in place to protect rescuers and casualties on scene from further harm.
Cheers
Jon
For us, depends on the severity of the accident and injuries.
If the damage to the vehicle is minimal and clearly fixable and their are no complex extrication challenges and/or signs of fire, we simply disconnect the battery. With a pair of pliers and minimal mechanical skill 99% of batteries can be disconnected in well under 60 seconds. That is typically far less time before the Jaws are even setup and ready to start working. So you are not wasting any time in disconnecting vs. cutting.
If we pull up and the car is obviously totalled then we just cut them. You are not costing the owner or Insurance company any more money in doing so.
It's the same principle with Forcible Entry. Too many people would rather be overly destructive then just using common sense. Not every "Emergency" is a race against time where every second counts and common sense and finesse are forgotten. I have been on calls where we were second due on an automatic alarm and the company on scene was firing up a Rotary saw to force entry on a commercial aluminum storefront door that i was able to open in less then 60 seconds with a pair of Channel locks and a Kerry Key and causing NO damage to the door itself.
Took a vehicle tech class this week, met Chief Moore, learned a bunch... Other than airbags and such, my new number one reason for d/c a battery is HID headlights. 250,000 volts, 6 amps. Basicly an arch welder on the front of a car. No thank you.
Yes, but they are a non issue if the car you are working on was in a side impact or rear end collision. The high voltage ballasts for them are mounted within 6-10" of the headlights themselves and are only on when the headlights are on. Just something to consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by FiremanLyman
Wait, what?Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnycutter
Vibrating seat will prevent internal blood clotting.... what does that even mean?
Fine for you, but I trust NOTHING to work the way it is intended once involved in an accident. "Trauma" to electrical systems produce funny results. I am still going to cut the battery cable.Quote:
Originally Posted by WD6956
It means a small internal bleed will not clot and seal itself off. The patient will continue to bleed longer, blood will end up where it's not supposed to be. That's bad for the patient.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefKN
Just don't hold the lamp wires,you'll be fine.
I'm not convinced that the minimal vibrations will impede clotting. Was this based on some study?Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsb
johnsbQuote:
Originally Posted by ChiefKN
Thanks for explaining that one :) I should have put it better.
ChiefKN
vibrating seats are designed to keep the blood circulating when you are sat for a long journey/drive. Yes it can have an adverse effect on internal bleeds, the slightest movement can disrupt an internal blood clot, the second clot that forms is only 40 percent as good as the first clot. So yes if a vibrating seat is active it can cause problems for the casualty.
Jon
What's up with all the hating on the Boys in Blue? I can't think of one time in the past 13 years where a LEO even tired to tell us how to cut on a car. The troopers might get a little antsy when we shut down the highway for a long period of time, but they always get over it. Maybe we are just lucky in our area.
Hmm... I remain unconvinced that this is a serious concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnycutter
Preventing blood clots in the legs during travel and inhibiting clots from sort of internal bleed post trauma are not comparable. I'm not sure what kind of small bleed you are referencing from a trauma, large bleeds probably won't matter (think an aortic deceleration tear).
Considering the hypercoag state of the post trauma patient, preventing those small clots just might be a good thing.