1. #1
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    Default Quint & 2012 AFG

    Here's a question for the smart kids in the room. Mississippi's Rating Bureau has informed us that we must purchase an aerial device, due to the amount of 4 story structures that have been constructed in our district, in order to keep our current rating classification. 2011 run volume of around 220 calls about 10% of those were structure fires. We were awarded a new tanker in FY '10. Any chance we could pick up a quint through AFG, or should we focus on other ideas for the vehicle application?

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    Logic says throw it out there and see what sticks. Realistically, there is only about $71.6 million available for vehicles so chances are pretty small.
    Kurt Bradley
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    If it's the only truck type that would be really competitive, like KB said might as well give it a shot since it won't bump any other apps you'd do. Like any other project, if you can't buy it outright, might as well apply.

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    We had this discussion not too long ago here.
    Buying an aerial for the first time is a lot harder than getting funding for an old needs to be replaced one.
    You do have a good argument in that the rating bureau is sort of forcing this on you, but it's a new risk and need so it probably won't score well. That coupled with less funds available makes it a really hard sell. Write the application, but also start working with the bean counters to figure out other sources of funding.

    How many 4+ story building do you have & what was the trigger number for them to decide you need an aerial?

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    Well the bean counters have already gotten a heads up, plus we have to build a new station to accommodate this truck. It also comes with bad timing, because we have to replace one of our pumpers this year. We have 6 or 7 four stories. The rating bureau counts 4 stories by property rather than individual structures. We've had an explosion in student housing being built in the last 4 years, so I'm not sure what the tipping point was. We have a couple of years to comply, but we want to get ahead of this, rather than kicking the can down the road. I guess my big concern, was that this wouldn't beat the computer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADC120 View Post
    Well the bean counters have already gotten a heads up, plus we have to build a new station to accommodate this truck. It also comes with bad timing, because we have to replace one of our pumpers this year. We have 6 or 7 four stories. The rating bureau counts 4 stories by property rather than individual structures. We've had an explosion in student housing being built in the last 4 years, so I'm not sure what the tipping point was. We have a couple of years to comply, but we want to get ahead of this, rather than kicking the can down the road. I guess my big concern, was that this wouldn't beat the computer.
    It may not beat the computer, but if it does, you have just given some good info for the narrative. First, make sure it's clear that you can afford to add to the station, and then have a good idea of what that would cost. Then carry that in as part of your share of the project as you write the narrative (don't count it in the project budget). You're essentially saying, "Not only are we putting up $X as the direct cost-share on the vehicle, but we are also committing $Y to house the vehicle."

    When you discuss financial need, add that you have to replace a pumper, and because this ladder requirement was only recently given to you, you don't have a quint in your rotation plan.

    Side note, possibly best addressed by BC79er: Do you really need to buy that pumper now if you are going to buy a quint? Should you reduce your AFG expense and go straight truck, or reduce your own expense by holding off on the pumper until you hear from AFG on the quint?
    “I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.”
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    Yes we will still have to replace the pumper. The new station won't be a replacement, but an addition. The new station will allow us to expand our legal FPD, and allow us to lower the rating on some areas previously not covered.

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    Sounds to me like there is more expansion than what can be afforded. And a grant would be a bad investment for the grant people. Sounding like a recipe for shortage of budgets/funds in the near future.

    Sorry, just the way I'm seeing it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I guess I need to clarify. We have to buy the quint because of growth in an area already within our legal boundaries. This particular area sits on the western boundary of our district. Seeing how we have to build another station to accommodate a quint, we choose to place the new station in the area where the growth has occurred. This allows us to expand our legal district, to cover areas that we already respond to, but don't enjoy the lowered insurance rates. Our district is very complex, we have densely populated areas, and very rural areas. Replacing an existing pumper with a quint, in one of the existing stations would be repair bill waiting to happen (dirt roads, low hanging branches etc...) In addition, to tear down and rebuild a new station in the same spot, would cost more than building a new one in a different location, when you factor in demolition costs. Regardless of federal funding, we will be purchasing a quint and building a new station within the next couple of years, neither are optional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADC120 View Post
    Regardless of federal funding, we will be purchasing a quint and building a new station within the next couple of years, neither are optional.
    Then the obvious issue is that you have no financial need.

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    I believe you've taken that quote out of context if you have read my previous posts, but please explain how you came to that conclusion.

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    Kinda have to agree with Sly on this one even after re-reading everything. Kinda hard not to take that statement that way since you are saying no matter what within 2-3 years the station will be built and the quint bought with local money.

    Now I can venture a guess that maybe you meant that if the powers that be decide to make the rating more important than a lot of other things, that they'll rob Peter to pay Paul (Quint & Station). Peter being maybe a school expansion, sewer project, fixing up the library, or other such community-wide stuff. In which case there's no accuracy to the statement since I haven't found too many communities that would choose a fire truck and station over some of those other projects over a rating that might increase their insurance $50-100. Maybe more, but the average member of the public expects those increases every year anyway so not like that's an argument that would work on them to get more taxes out of them for the FD projects.

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    Guess I need to explain then. What I was implying, is that we will have to go into debt to finance the project. Mississippi's rating system is very different than most states, a downgrade of our rating would cause a 30-50 percent increase in insurance for most policy holders. We are a private non-profit with an average contribution of $17,000 from the county, the rest is donations & fundraisers. What my statement was supposed to imply, is that we don't have a choice about building a new station or buying a truck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADC120 View Post
    Guess I need to explain then. What I was implying, is that we will have to go into debt to finance the project.
    Which is how nearly all fire apparatus and stations are paid for. If you have the borrowing capacity to do the projects yourself, you won't be very convincing on financial need with AFG.
    “I am more than just a serious basketball fan. I am a life-long addict. I was addicted from birth, in fact, because I was born in Kentucky.”
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    Default Afg

    Would you have a better cahnce of getting the pumper you need through AFG, and purchasing the ladder with local funds?

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    I doubt it, our pumpers are 97, 04, & 07 year models.

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    6 or 7, 4 story structures will not give you many points in scoring.
    From what I have read of your comments so far , you won't score enough to get by the computer, much less peer.
    You are describing a new need, a new mission, and a new type of apparatus for a minimal property base need.

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    Oh I couldn't agree more. I could come up with a long list of things we could spend that kind of money on that would be more beneficial, but that's the cost of growth I guess. Thanks for the advice fellas.

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