Harrisburg 2012 Show

[captain7]

We just got back from the Harrisburg Show last night. What a show. We were looking at new engine ideas for our upcoming purchase. The big manufacturers are really starting to get some competition from the smaller builders. Both Seagrave and Pierce had engines there for well over 475K. I will attach some photos of some of the stuff we looked at. There were many awesome low hosebed designs there. KME and Spartan really looked good. The rumor that Spartan will no longer supply chassis to the other apparatus builders was false.

[Woodbridge]

Anyone have photo's of the apparatus display by KME, if so can you post them !

[LeadOff]

Well at least Seagrave showed up. I bet they won't be at the Firehouse Mag Expo in Baltimore in July. They weren't there last year. What did ALF have at Harrisburg?

[captain7]

ALF had an engine, straight LTI ladder and a few other pieces. KME had over 16 trucks there. Pierce had around 8 - 10. BTW, that Dash is a horrible design. I have never seen so much wasted, unusable cab space in a truck in my life. Looks like the latest trend this year at the show is every manufacturer offer Rino-Liner type coatings in the cab, the compartments, and the pump panel. Looks like a good option for compartments that Hurst oil eats the paint off of. I believe the Yeadon truck is a KME.

[SFD_E73_RET]

ALF had an engine, straight LTI ladder and a few other pieces. KME had over 16 trucks there. Pierce had around 8 - 10. BTW, that Dash is a horrible design. I have never seen so much wasted, unusable cab space in a truck in my life. Looks like the latest trend this year at the show is every manufacturer offer Rino-Liner type coatings in the cab, the compartments, and the pump panel. Looks like a good option for compartments that Hurst oil eats the paint off of. I believe the Yeadon truck is a KME.

Personally I like zolotone in the compartments (not as coarse) and why would anybody cover a pump panel? Use stainless steel it looks better and it's easier to clean.

[BoxAlarm187]

The rumor that Spartan will no longer supply chassis to the other apparatus builders was false.

According to who?

[captain7]

A Spartan rep at the show. He explained the different division that Spartan is now divided into. Crimson, Fire Apparatus Chassis, Other. He said they can still badge trucks built by Crimson as such if the customer wants that. But shortly down the road, everything will be labeled Spartan as was the case at the show. Rosenbaurer had their new chassis there. It looks like they copied the Spartan design to a t. I joked with the sales guy about it. Other Spartan chassis were there from various truck builders.

[BoxAlarm187]

He actually used the term "Crimson" at the show? At FDIC, there was *nothing* in the Spartan ERV booth that had the word Crimson on it, nor would the sales staff there use that term. Interesting.

Having seen various versions of the Rosenbauer Commander, I'd say that there's some Spartan influence (which would make sense, based on Rich Schalter's history), but it sure isn't a copy of a Spartan to a "T". Different frame, crossmembers, step height, dash, HVAC design, 3/16" cab thickness vs 1/8" on the Spartan, more room for the officer...lots of differences. Spartan cab is still a viable contender, but the Rosenbauer isn't just a re-engineered Spartan per se.

Did he say if they'd continue to sell Spartan chassis to KME and Smeal specifically?

[captain7]

He did not. From what I could see of KME, they are going to stick to their own cab design. The Predator high end, Panther as a lower level. Either one can be configured for sever service. They did not have a Spartan truck there. Only Port Norris Mack tanker was on a different chassis than KME.

[LeadOff]

Spartan told me that they were going to stop selling their cab/chassis to any fire apparatus OEM that builds their own custom cab/chassis. This primarily is targeted at Rosenbauer who is now building the Commander cab but also impacts Ferrara and E-One who would build on a Spartan but I don't think they did that many of them. I bet Spartan is hoping that many of Rosenbauer's customers who are loyal to Spartan will come over to Crimson (Spartan ERV) but if the Commander does well, many will just stay with Rosenbauer and go with their new cab. We are big Spartan fans and have had quite a few pieces (engines and towers) with the Gladiator cab. However, we got the chance to go down to Texas back in Feb to take a good look at the Commander. I had a chance to talk to Rich Schalter about the "Spartan heritage" in the Commander design but like BoxAlarm said, they have tried to incorportate some significant improvements and design changes in their Commander to try and make it at the very least as good as a Spartan Gladiator if not better. I think they are on the right track with it but I'm not a big gambler or risk taker in buying something that is brand new in the fire apparatus industry. I'd rather have it go into full production for a couple of years or so first, let it get fielded so that we have a chance to see how it's doing and what mods are made to work out the inevitable "bugs". Rosenbauer has assembled a very good team to design and build the Commander but it's realistically impossible to get it perfect on the first cut. Let's give it a little time.

[BoxAlarm187]

Spartan told me that they were going to stop selling their cab/chassis to any fire apparatus OEM that builds their own custom cab/chassis. This primarily is targeted at Rosenbauer who is now building the Commander cab but also impacts Ferrara and E-One who would build on a Spartan but I don't think they did that many of them.

This is exactly what I've been told as well from a variety of sources.

[LeadOff]

I'm just wondering if Spartan's "power play" may back fire on them causing them to make a strategy change. Time will tell!

[Skysthelimit]

Is that not what ALF tried and it backfired? no LTI units on a Spartan Chassis.

[LeadOff]

Is that not what ALF tried and it backfired? no LTI units on a Spartan Chassis.

That is correct. We bought a new LTI 100' RM Tower in 2002. We wanted it on a Spartan chassis like the 1989 model we had which was bought before ALF purchased LTI from Simon. However, ALF said no LTI ladder unless it's built on their chassis. We wanted to go with Smeal on a Spartan but they had no dealers any where near us back then so we reluctantly went with the ALF/LTI. I will say that we've had pretty good luck with the ALF Eagle cab/chassis on this truck. It's definitely not as good as the Spartan but it did the job. No major complaints to date. I'm sure ALF lost some business and good LTI customers when they refused to build on anything but their own chassis. Now they're trying to sell the Eagle cab/chassis and the LTI ladders to anybody who wants to use them but they're on such shaky ground now it's a very risky deal. The timing was all wrong to prevent what I would have called a real strong combo. That would have been if Spartan would have bought LTI from Simon and Saulsbury when Alan decided to sell it. Now that would have been a strong matchup. Too bad it couldn't happen. I think Rosenbauer came out better buying Central States, General Safety, and RK Aerials as compared to Spartan buying Luverne and Quality. The thing they did right was "save" Jim Salmi from ALF and have him set-up Crimson Aerials in Lancaster using much of the old LTI workforce. We've got one of the Crimson towers and consider it an improved version of the LTI tower.

[chiefengineer11]

And it was really good to see Bill Foster at his familiar perch on the bumper of a Spartan chassis. Even better to sit next to him on it and listen to him talk engines.

[Skysthelimit]

That is correct. We bought a new LTI 100' RM Tower in 2002. We wanted it on a Spartan chassis like the 1989 model we had which was bought before ALF purchased LTI from Simon. However, ALF said no LTI ladder unless it's built on their chassis. We wanted to go with Smeal on a Spartan but they had no dealers any where near us back then so we reluctantly went with the ALF/LTI. I will say that we've had pretty good luck with the ALF Eagle cab/chassis on this truck. It's definitely not as good as the Spartan but it did the job. No major complaints to date. I'm sure ALF lost some business and good LTI customers when they refused to build on anything but their own chassis. Now they're trying to sell the Eagle cab/chassis and the LTI ladders to anybody who wants to use them but they're on such shaky ground now it's a very risky deal. The timing was all wrong to prevent what I would have called a real strong combo. That would have been if Spartan would have bought LTI from Simon and Saulsbury when Alan decided to sell it. Now that would have been a strong matchup. Too bad it couldn't happen. I think Rosenbauer came out better buying Central States, General Safety, and RK Aerials as compared to Spartan buying Luverne and Quality. The thing they did right was "save" Jim Salmi from ALF and have him set-up Crimson Aerials in Lancaster using much of the old LTI workforce. We've got one of the Crimson towers and consider it an improved version of the LTI tower.

Or the rebirth of the Aerial Inovations product with some design improvements.

[Woodbridge]

Since we are on the subject of Spartan/Crimson, anyone know the O.A.L. of there new 75' Midmount platform apparatus, Med four door chassis, with the four section ladder ?

[LeadOff]

Since we are on the subject of Spartan/Crimson, anyone know the O.A.L. of there new 75' Midmount platform apparatus, Med four door chassis, with the four section ladder ?

I'm curious myself. I will see if I can get the drawing of Bayonne's new 75' MM Platform from Campbell Supply or get the info from Crimson's service rep who just did the training on it with Bayonne recently.

[LeadOff]

Since we are on the subject of Spartan/Crimson, anyone know the O.A.L. of there new 75' Midmount platform apparatus, Med four door chassis, with the four section ladder ?

My buddy at Crimson just sent me the drawing and a nice photo of Bayonne's (NJ) new Spartan ERV 75ft MM Tower (Model # MP75-4-1000) built on a Spartan Gladiator chassis with the MFD cab. Here are the key dimensions from the drawing:

OAH - 10' 7" OAL - 45' WB - 237"

The factory training was just completed on the truck and it is now back at Campbell's shop for a few fixes. Should go in service in a few weeks.

[LeadOff]

Or the rebirth of the Aerial Inovations product with some design improvements.

Yes, you could say that. All part of the LTI Heritage: Grove, LTI, Simon-LTI, ALF-LTI, and the LTI "spin-offs" started by the former LTI group (former owners and engineers) to include AI, Steeldraulics (later became the Grumman then the KME Aerialcat), Structural Fabrications (aerial design later purchased by Pierce and built in Kewaunee), and of course Crimson Aerials (now Spartan ERV).