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06-13-2012, 10:38 AM #21Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."
06-13-2012, 01:14 PM #22
Well, I guess that comes down to perspective. My opinion, and that of many others in my local are yes, there was.
Politician "A" is a known "enemy" of fire service staffing, having their actions speak much louder than words. Any of the other four candidates in a recent race would have been better. In fact, the IAFF endorsed the only candidate that stated firefighters should lose the ability to collectively bargain and, actively lobbied for it.
The politician we chose to endorse, as a local, has an actual known history of standing up for firefighters and police officers.
Go ahead and spin it, I know you're just dying to. That won't change the fact the IAFF does not live up to what we pay them to do. I stand with my local 100%, no question about it. However, the current IAFF and other state level associations...here...leave a lot to be desired. The "brotherhood" exhibited here over the past eighteen months is in that same category, as well. Had the international offered up even 1/10th of what they threw out in Madison, in record setting times, I have no doubt that many of our cuts would have been prevented.
How many times did both Obama and Biden ride thru this state over the past five years? All those trips thru and our general president didn't make one effort to whisper in the ear of our mayor or, have either Biden or Obama make a phone call to help. All that was given was a cursory appearance by the fifth district VP, several years ago...once...
Actions speak louder than words. One candidate cuts firefighters; makes firefighters' jobs more difficult by wasting money and providing ineffective communication devices. The other stands up and actually takes action to support firefighters and police officers...
I know this topic is off track as the thread seems to deal with presidential politics, but it's a good topic.
Last edited by Jasper 45; 06-13-2012 at 01:18 PM.
06-13-2012, 01:59 PM #23
I guess I should have clarified. I am not a paid firefighter. I am a civil engineer working in the private sector.
I understand that there are the underlying tones of kill the unions, but I do not see that as a presidential issue. Nor do I believe that either candidate would undertake a large scale attack or defense of unioins whether they be private or public sector. Again, this is more of a congressional if not state issue.
I do understand that under the Affordable Healthcare Act, my family must get our insurance through my job rather than my wife's because the religious organization she works for would rather pay the penalties than offer services counter to their beliefs to employees as mandated by the legislation. I also see where many of Bush's policies and programs that were protested in the past have not been repealed or have even been extended.
I have 2 boys under the age of 3. President Obama promised a recovery and gains economically that have been missed so badly, that I cannot take the risk of more of his failed policies and spending putting my kids more in debt. I would rather have that burden than trying to spend our way out of things so that future generations are left with the bill. I would rather suffer through a recession / depression than have my children or grandchildren go through one.
06-13-2012, 03:38 PM #24
Last edited by scfire86; 06-13-2012 at 03:53 PM.Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."
06-13-2012, 05:58 PM #25"This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?
06-13-2012, 06:03 PM #26Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."
06-13-2012, 11:16 PM #27"This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?
06-13-2012, 11:23 PM #28
Last edited by scfire86; 06-14-2012 at 12:10 AM.Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."
06-14-2012, 01:35 AM #29
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- West Point, VA
So glad you are here. I was hoping you would come over for a debate.
That has nothing to do with why companies eliminated DB plans. They were eliminated to cut costs. A good number of all those mergers in the 80's were done so the acquiring companies could get their hands on the overfunded pension plans. It was one of the ways Romney's company made a lot of money (for the principal officers). In fact, defined benefit plans are very popular in the private sector amongst the prinicipal executives.
As far as defined benefit plans for private sector execs, public sector execs have better benefits than the grunts. The difference is that I could care less what some CEO has as a benefit. Good for them. However if a locality/state/nation is circling the drain financially, perhaps it is time to look at another retirement method to cut costs.
The IAFF is there to support candidates that will be supportive of wages, hours, and working conditions for firefighters.
Since you believe that public sector unions are not helpful, why do you take the benefits acquired by a politically active organization? How big a check do you write back to your parent agency every month to assuage your guilt over the compensation that was acquired by the union?
Public employees and their benefits are being blamed for every issue plaguing the nation. I have to say I am amazed you would support a group whose desire is to gut you like a tuna.
I support conservatives/libertarians because the policies they want to enact will help the economy significantly more than the liberals. A strong economy is the best way to ensure public sector jobs.
I'll be voting for Obama. I believe he has done an excellent job given the disaster he was handed by his predecessor while having to fight an opposition party that won't even vote for it's own economic legislation.
Romney has made it clear he wants to return to the policies of the Bush Administration.
Last edited by Spencer534; 06-14-2012 at 01:51 AM.
06-14-2012, 01:46 AM #30
Thanks for these softball questions.Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."
06-14-2012, 01:56 AM #31
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- West Point, VA
06-14-2012, 02:32 AM #32
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- West Point, VA
No. It's not being dramatic. You must not read much of the rhetoric from conservative outlets. If you did, you'd know that unions and pensions are being blamed for just about everything.
He can blame Bush all he wants, but he knew this was the largest depression since the 30s (he said so many times before becoming president). He said he could fix it. He got the things he said would fix it passed. It hasnt worked so now he blames Bush, Europe, Japan, Congress, etc. He asks for a commission to identify how to make things better (Bowles/Simpson) and then ignores their findings when the tax increases he wanted would have passed (this was when both houses were controlled by Congress).
Not true. He only had control of the Senate till Sen. Kennedy died about eight months into his term. Since then the GOP has utilized the cloture motion more times in the last three years than was used between the end of WW I and Watergate. The GOP has made it clear they are willing to prevent any type of legislation that will aid recovery. They even vote against their own legislation.
Huh? Romney has stated he wants to give more tax cuts thereby cutting revenue.
Your comment about Pelosi is a laff riot. The GOP controlled both houses of congress from 1994 to 2006, with six of those years being during the Bush Administration. BTW, Bush signed all those budget bills into law. So he is also to blame for effectively doubling the national debt while conservatives said nothing until a Dem won election to the White House. The American public believes (and rightfully so) that Bush is to blame for the current fiscal mess. He inherited a balanced budget with a surplus and handed off record deficits and a doubling of the national debt.
Thanks for these softball questions.
Republicans and Democrats both are to blame, but at least the conservatives are admitting they were wrong and are willing to change. Hell, even some Democrats are changing. We'd like to welcome Artur Davis to the Republican Party.
Last edited by Spencer534; 06-14-2012 at 02:49 AM.
06-14-2012, 03:26 AM #33
How are public safety unions to blame for the Great Recession?
Last edited by scfire86; 06-14-2012 at 10:58 AM.Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."
06-14-2012, 02:07 PM #34
You may not see it as a presidential issue. But conservatives have made breaking up unions a priority.
There are things my taxes pay for that I don't support but I pay them anyway. It's how our system of government operates. I'll trade you the amount of money you might have to pay for healthcare insurance for the amount of money I pay for government subsidies to private companies or to the mulit-million annual salaries enjoyed by executives whose companies have government contracts as their sole source of revenue.
I have worked for larger corporations. I agree that CEO salaries and benefits are out of whack. That is up to that company, stockholders, and employees to handle. They are a privately held company so their finances should be taken care of as such. If the mayor of a 10,000 resident city is making $500,000 a year, it is up to the city and voters to do something about it.
Funny stuff. The only times conservatives care about debt and deficits is when a Dem is in the White House. You must have been asleep the eight years between Jan. 2001 and Jan. 2009 when the so called "fiscal conservative" doubled the national debt. Were you concerned about putting your kids in debt when Bush ran up about $5.5T worth of debt? As much as all of his predecessors combined. You claim Obama has missed the mark on recovery. Where is the GOP jobs plan they promised would be their priority on Day One when they took control of the House. Over a year later and no jobs legislation has emerged from that group. In fact, conservatives have become so dysfunctional they vote against their own legislation.
Ignoring who has a D or an R after their name, do you vote on what they have done versus what they say they will do? I heard many arguments against a Bush 2nd term based on failure to achieve some promises. Isn't the same true now?
I look at it this way, President Obama said that he would lower unemployment to 8% and we aren't close. He said that we would be well on our way to recovery (not recovered, but making significant headway). He said that he would have passed health care legislation that would work for everyone and immediately exempted different groups in over 800 instances.
President Obama is a very intelligent man that knows politics. He understood coming into the office the challenges he would face with an opposition controlled house and senate (even though only the congress has been truely opposition controlled and only for 1/2 the time he has been in). He also understood that getting unemployment and the economy turned around would be difficult and dependent on international economic situations. So either he:
1) Failed - no harm no foul, just no second term
2) Knowingly promised what he couldn't follow through with (lied) - some will say that is just politics
3) Wasn't smart enough to see how difficult things would be
Any one of the three is reason for me to give someone else a chance. And yes, the same was true 8 years ago.
06-14-2012, 05:26 PM #35
Last edited by scfire86; 06-15-2012 at 09:08 AM.Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."
06-14-2012, 06:03 PM #36
06-14-2012, 06:13 PM #37
This is a true statement and, one in which you could add EMS. There are many places that place private ambulances on the streets to do EMS but, there is no way that a private carrier can do it without massive support from government.
There is no profit in that kind of service. Those companies are dependent on government for at least first response by fire, ALS help from fire or, they are dependent on city/county/state government to provide the 9-1-1 assistance/service.
The private companies will also pretend that they are providing a cost saving level of service while making full use of the local/state/federal government for all of the help they receive.
Never mind the fact that there is not one private ambulance company alive that does not in some way, shape or form perform inter-facility transports. The majority of those, which is the pay day they all seek, is paid out by medicare, in some way.
06-14-2012, 06:28 PM #38
Conservatives now claim Obama is doing a poor job because the train wreck left by the president they supported hasn't been fixed fast enough.
In the meantime, they have yet to put forth any ideas that have been proven to work, while doing everything possible to prevent recovery. The delay of the Transportation Bill is the latest in a long string of actions.
Last edited by scfire86; 06-15-2012 at 08:44 AM.Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."
06-14-2012, 07:04 PM #39
06-14-2012, 08:19 PM #40
Vote for President
There are two reasons I will not be voting for the "O" man for president.
!. He was not born in the U.S. but Kenya. Say all you want but Grandma even said so....
2. Can you honestly say we are better off then we were four years ago???? It's not George Bush's fault either.....
I think not.......
This is the main reason Politics should not be discussed in the Fire House......Respectfully,
Lifetime Member CSFA
IAFF Alumni Member
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