Thoughts on "Positive Pressure Attack" anyone using it?

[PCFR 823]

Wanted to hear what everyone thinks of PPA? Anyone using it? I have spent allot of time studying it, and have used it several times over the past few years with great results. However, I find allot of people in my department are hesitant about it. They think it will only feed the fire. Im not saying it should be used on all fires but if you use it correctly it is much safer for the FF's, poss occupants, and quicker time to the seat of the fire I have been taught zero visability and high heat in todays smoke is Flash Imanent. Why is change so hard for the Fire Service?

[Bones42]

Change isn't hard. Convincing people that there is more than 1 way to do things is hard. PPA can work. It can also cause lots of problems. It is simply another tactic that can be learned, trained on, and properly used. If any of those 3 items are not part of the equation...it spells probably disaster.


2 words that should not be used in the fire service.....always and never.

[EastKyFF]

2 words that should not be used in the fire service.....always and never.

Well, sometimes they shouldn't.



We have never tried PPA, since we don't have a heck of a lot of structure fires. Clearly your route of reading, researching, and investigating is the way to go before even THINKING about doing it.

Just check this out...

Firefighter Spot Firefighter Close Call Videos - YouTube

Skip ahead to 2:28.

[Miller337]

It works. There have been other threads on this the biggest thing I disagree with is using the tactic without any idea where the fire is, what it is, where it is going and which way it will be pushed.

You never have as much RELEVANT information as you would like but have an idea of what is happening and what will happen when PPA is implemented. Have the next plan figured out and ready to implement and a time frame to do so.

[Spencer534]

Read the book and take the class (they have lectures and offer a practical class where they come to you, build a wood frame and drywall structure similar to a small house, and demonstrate PPA over two days) by Garcia and Kaufman from Salt Lake City. They have been doing it for 15 years and are the experts on it. I see it as a capability for departments who have trouble coordinating ventilation with fire attack (truck company or more manpower does not arrive on time with the first in engine company) to do so. You have to really understand it and should only be employed by people who do.

As an aside, other than the chapter that was really scientifically detailed, their book is the best fire service book I have read. Ok, not better than "B Shifter", but pretty good.

[volfireman034]

Maybe try selling it as just part of your tool box of things you use. We have a bab habit in the fire service of wanting one way to do something and do it every time. We use PPA but very limited do to the fact of our long responce times. Training is a must!

[FyredUp]

PPV/PPA is another tool. It is no more right for EVERY situation than any other form of venting is. Properly utilized it can be an awesome tool.

[EastKyFF]

PPV/PPA is another tool. It is no more right for EVERY situation than any other form of venting is. Properly utilized it can be an awesome tool.

If more people understood that this holds true of almost any tool or tactic, there would be far fewer derailed threads around here.

[mikeyboy411]

My previous FD and my current FD use this as a very viable and used tactic. As others have said, you must train, train, train prior to implementing this tactic. What Fyredup said is very true...

As far as taking the Class, I definitely highly recommend you are a small Cadre from your FD attend a PPA Class that's legit. When I say "legit" I mean from somebody that actually uses the tactic, teaches it often and can explain/answer all of your questions. If they can't do all of this, then get out ASAP.

Miller337 also brings-up a HUGE point, if you don't know where the fire is then hold-off and investigate a bit more or there's a possibility of running fire in the walls and up to the attic, which creates a whole other monster.

Feel free to P.M. me if you have any questions, need clarification or need some additional information.

[PCFR 823]

I have read the book and every article from Garcia and Kauffman I can find. It is a fantastic book... I would love to attend one of their classes but our department has cut our tuition reimbursment. I recently saw on positivepressureattack.com they have a new 4 hour DVD out that I plan to purchase with my own funds because funds are tight in my department right now.

I agree that if used incorrectly things can go bad, but you can say that about every tactic right?

It does help to know where the seat of the fire is, some great tools for finding this out during a 360 is a T.I.C and some knowledge on "reading smoke" I would highly recomend to everyone some training on it, Dave Dodson is the MAN...when it comes to "The Art Of Reading Smoke" I also gobble up every bit of info he puts out.

There can also not be enough emphasis on the exhaust point location and size...It allot more than just putting a fan at the door and running in

[Spencer534]

You may try your PPV fan rep. At one time, either SuperVac or Tempest was sending FD training officers to Garcia and Kaufman classes for free.

[fire5555]

some nist testing:::


http://www.nist.gov/fire/ppv.cfm

http://www.azom.com/news.aspx?newsID=7205


http://www.nist.gov/el/windfire_031808.cfm

http://www.nfpa.org/publicJournalDet...ookie%5Ftest=1

[EastKyFF]

I agree that if used incorrectly things can go bad, but you can say that about every tactic right?

Agree to infinity.

[FFEMT3634]

love the concept..however, seen too many houses burned up because of it..due to ignorance on the part of the hosting department