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Thread: I'm getting a Pager?

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You know damn well that I am not talking about the routine bumps, bruises, strains and mild sprains that are agrevatting but will not keep a member from colelcting his paycheck at his job. You know that I am talking about injuries that will keep a member out of work and will keep food off the table because they are not collecting a paycheck for those days missed from work.
    Where is that determined? Is a volunteer excused for not responding for fear of injury on a rainy day? Driving code 3 through traffic is dangerous, particularly when one is required to break an intersection. You've stated earlier that you would have no problem with someone not performing a task because that individual believed it to be too dangerous. When does that determination get made?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    WE do have an obligation to make sure that volunteers are able to go to work after every run. That is soemthing that we owe to the husbands, wives and kids. Yes, it is family first, then the public. And that may mean backing off sooner than you would like or not performing operations that you think should be performed to minimize the chance of injury.
    Yet you believe helping people who called in the emergency warrant no such consideration. That what is the point of you being a firefighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes. We do have that obligation to our volunteer members.
    We can tell. You've stated on more than one occasion your indifference to the public.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    To be in decent physical shape? That is no where near the point of demanding too much.
    The individual owes that to the community he has sworn to serve. People expect emergency personnel to have some level of physical ability. If emergency personnel become part of the incident, there is no point in having them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    To be in decent physical shape? That is no where near the point of demanding too much.
    Descent physical shape? You're right, they should be in descent shape. But that being said, I understand if a volunteer simply does not have the time to make that happen.

    But there are posters that seem to believe that volunteers should spend an hour or two in the gym every day to be in peak physical shape. In a perfect world, that would be nice. In the real world, many attempt to spend as much time in the gyn as they can. And for some here, that likey isn't enough.

    Funny this should come up today, as my Captain who I work with training the members in my VFD have decided that all summer lomg, our members will be working outside, in PPE, performing physical tasks so that thier physical fitness, and mental toughness will improve.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-15-2012 at 06:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Descent physical shape? You're right, they should be in descent shape. But that being said, I understand if a volunteer simply does not have the time to make that happen.
    Bovine scat, excuses excuses...

    But there are posters that seem to believe that volunteers should spend an hour or two in the gym every day to be in peak physical shape. In a perfect world, that would be nice. In the real world, many attempt to spend as much time in the gyn as they can. And for some here, that likey isn't enough.
    Nobody ever said that volunteers should spend two hours a day in the gym... you are spinning bovine scat again.

    Funny this should come up today, as my Captain who I work with training the members in my VFD have decided that all summer lomg, our members will be working outside, in PPE, performing physical tasks so that thier physical fitness, and mental toughness will improve.
    I hope you are joining them... or do you have an excuse like a bummed shoulder?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Bovine scat, excuses excuses...

    For the volunteer working a full-time and part-time job, and family commitments, and trying to balance response, training and possibly admin and/or fundraising responsibilities at the FD, it's not bovine scat.

    It's reality.



    Nobody ever said that volunteers should spend two hours a day in the gym... you are spinning bovine scat again.

    There are at least 2 posters that believe that, and have posted, that all firefighters should be warriors and at the peak of fitness. That takes time in the gym.



    I hope you are joining them... or do you have an excuse like a bummed shoulder?
    As I co-plan and co-deliver training, yes, I will be involved. They will be doing the bulk of the physical labor, but both him and I will be in gear and SCBA more than normal as the training will become much more hands-on, for at least the next 3 months.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I co-plan and co-deliver training, yes, I will be involved. They will be doing the bulk of the physical labor, but both him and I will be in gear and SCBA more than normal as the training will become much more hands-on, for at least the next 3 months.
    Why don't you just admit that you want to be able to wear the uniform and be thought a hero, but want zero responsibility for what the job entails.

    Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They will be doing the bulk of the physical labor, but both him and I will be in gear and SCBA more than normal as the training will become much more hands-on, for at least the next 3 months.
    Unless they just don't feel like is safe for them to participate. Of course how dangerous can it be practice being a yard breather?
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    For the volunteer working a full-time and part-time job, and family commitments, and trying to balance response, training and possibly admin and/or fundraising responsibilities at the FD, it's not bovine scat.

    It's reality.
    Reality? I work full time at the FD, hold three per diem jobs (all fire and ems related) and have a car detailing venture on the side. I too have family commitments, yet I find time to get some excercise in daily, whether it be working in the yard (spent the morning trimming the rosebushes and pulling weeds in the flower garden area), walking the dogs (I do about an average of 2 miles a day with them) and go into the gym at the firehouse when I can.. even if it is for just 15 to 20 minutes between calls, inspections, training, etc.

    Once again.. you are maknig bull$#!t excuses.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 06-16-2012 at 02:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And that's good, but what level of physical fitness can the volunteer fire service demand from the typical volunteer with a family given the run, administrative, maintainence and training requirements, as well as in some places the fundraising requirements. At what point are we simply demanding too much of volunteer personnel?
    So let me see if I have this right. Once again you want absolutely no standards for YOUR volunteers. The totally obese, out of shape 400 pound member is a body filling a slot. Because filling slots, and being inclusive, is far more important than actually providing professional, quality, efficient fire protection for the citizens you supposedly protect.

    We owe it to our community to have firefighters that are physically capable of doing the job. That doesn't necessarily mean spendin 2 hours a day in the gym. It means maintaining an appropriate body weight, eating properly, and doing enough physical activity to remain able to do the demandin task of being a firefighter. I don't spend hours in the gym, but I do spend hours on my property doing hard physical labor. Cutting down trees and hauling away the wood, tilling and planting a garden, building fences, doing remodeling and construction. I also swim and ride my bike regularly. Am I an Adonis? Nope. But I am physically cxapable of doing the hard work of firefighter.

    My demands for volunteers include my not having to visit somebody's wife, husband, mom, dad, daughter, son, significant other or anyone else, to tell them that their loved one will not be coming home, EVER. Especially if the reason they aren't coming home is they were so pitifully out of shape they died of a heart attack essentially doing nothing at the scene.

    I will not apologize for my stance on this. Because to me saving the lives of our firefighters is not a slogan, it is not a neat idea to banty around on forums, and it for damn sure isn't a game. If you really care you will find a way to make those nedical evals happen. Have you even tried to work a deal with a local doctor or clinic? How about staggering years? Half one year half the next? Not as good as everyone every year but at least it will get done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Reality? I work full time at the FD, hold three per diem jobs (all fire and ems related) and have a car detailing venture on the side. I too have family commitments, yet I find time to get some excercise in daily, whether it be working in the yard (spent the morning trimming the rosebushes and pulling weeds in the flower garden area), walking the dogs (I do about an average of 2 miles a day with them) and go into the gym at the firehouse when I can.. even if it is for just 15 to 20 minutes between calls, inspections, training, etc.


    Once again.. you are maknig bull$#!t excuses.

    Neither of my departments have significant issues with line personnel - volunteer or career - bing significantly out of shape. Obviously some are better than others.

    My combo department has a fully equipped workout room with an elliptical, treadmills, bikes and weights (free and a machine) with a big screen TV and nice stereo system which makes it comfortable to work out in. Do we require it? No. And honestly we shouldn't. Do we encourage it? Yes. And we have spent a fair amount of money to equip it so it is important to us.

    My VFD will be moving equipment into the old training room once we move into our new central Station in a few weeks. It will not be nearly as elaborate as the facility at my combo department but it will give them some equipment to workout with.

    Most of our members do a fair amount of physical activity either at their FT jobs or as recreation, so as I said, it's not a major issue, but once again, I'm going to take what a volunteer will give me and not demand more than they reasonably can.

    Unfortunately most rural VFDs in this area have neither the space in their stations for a gym or the money to purchase equipment for one.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-16-2012 at 06:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    Unless they just don't feel like is safe for them to participate. Of course how dangerous can it be practice being a yard breather?
    Yup. Bunch of yardbreathers.

    And if they don't feel that it's safe for them to perform a task, or they are uncomfortable in performing an assigned task, yes, we give them the option to say no and simply reassign the task to somebody else.

    Both departments do allow the volunteers to perform tasks that are within their comfort range and decline tasks and assignments that are not. I see no issues with that.

    That being said, if it does become obvious over a period of time that they do not seem to be able to function physically as a firefighter, in both of my departments they likely will be reassigned to support.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ... But that being said, I understand if a volunteer simply does not have the time to make that happen...
    I don't. And have been volunteer for ~30 years now. Being in decent physical shape is a life choice, not a FD choice.

    PS - we don't have a gym at our firehouse. We have no exercise equipment at all. And yet, guys manage to stay in decent shape. No we are not a bunch of bodybuilders...but we are fairly fit. Exercise is easy....sit ups, push ups, walking, climbing stairs, etc. No equipment needed.....just some effort and a conscience.
    Last edited by Bones42; 06-16-2012 at 10:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    And if they don't feel that it's safe for them to perform a task, or they are uncomfortable in performing an assigned task, yes, we give them the option to say no and simply reassign the task to somebody else.
    What do you do when all of them say they are uncomfortable performing an assigned task during an incident?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Both departments do allow the volunteers to perform tasks that are within their comfort range and decline tasks and assignments that are not. I see no issues with that.
    Thanks for continuing to let us know you're department and its personnel are jokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That being said, if it does become obvious over a period of time that they do not seem to be able to function physically as a firefighter, in both of my departments they likely will be reassigned to support.
    This just gets better and better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup. Bunch of yardbreathers.
    And if they don't feel that it's safe for them to perform a task, or they are uncomfortable in performing an assigned task, yes, we give them the option to say no and simply reassign the task to somebody else.
    Both departments do allow the volunteers to perform tasks that are within their comfort range and decline tasks and assignments that are not. I see no issues with that.
    What will you do when the majority of the FFs on the scene don't feel comfortable in performing an assigned task, due to the fact that they are out of shape, and or under trained? Who do you reassign the task to?

    Decline a tasks? Oh, you mean refuse to follow an order. That sounds like a great way to do business.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That being said, if it does become obvious over a period of time that they do not seem to be able to function physically as a firefighter, in both of my departments they likely will be reassigned to support.
    And what is the "sign post" that you use to judge their inability to function physically as a FF? A heart attack? A stroke? Their inability to act that causes them to injure or kill another? What?
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    I've been trolling this post for quite a while since I originally posted a few weeks ago..

    but..

    I think that both sides need to step back and look at this argument from the outside in, instead of the inside out..

    for those of us who prefer to do aggressive interior work regardless of the situation..I,myself, pride myself on doing a quick initial size up of my own, and immediately going on an interior assault..weather it be to search or on the nozzle..some surrounding fire depts prefer to "save the foundation" so to speak and don't do a lot of offensive operations. I don't agree with that, I believe that if there is something to be saved, weather it be life, or even property then we should do everything possible to save it, that includes risking health and well being to go interior and put the fire out. If my home was on fire I would want firefighters to save as much as possible, especially since I have 2 dogs who are like my kids, and I do have some heirlooms(spelling?) that I wouldn't appreciate being destroyed. I am very confident in myself and the few brothers who I operate on the fire ground with, not everyone, just the few, because we train, we train on different techniques, I go out of district to learn new things in different areas, I read a lot, I even take things from videos on youtube. I don't feel comfortable with ladders, but if I am assigned to go vent a roof, or inspect a chimney for signs of fire I'll do my absolute best to accomplish what needs to be done..may not be done as fast as spiderman, but I'll get it done safely and correctly.

    And, on another note, with the economy in the state that it is today, we should assume that every vacant property is inhabited by squatters or whatever, esp. in the extreme summer or winter months, it just makes sense, and that has nothing to do with anything other then trying to save someone in the event of a fire, and if that means putting my life in danger then so be it..I volunteered to go to the call, no one put a gun to my head.

    On the topic of physicals, while I do have to agree that most volunteer departments have a hard time paying for basic necessities like apparatus repair, PPE, and equipment that it would be a strain to ask them to pay for a physical as well. However, if when I joined they told me to get a check up I would go to an urgent care type facility and get it done, because I want to do it, and be a firefighter. If you want it bad enough you will get it done.

    On the topic of physical fitness, while like I posted before, It would be unrealistic for some fire depts to go out and buy gym equipment as it is expensive, even the basics..there are things that can be done. We have an agreement that we are allowed to use the gym on the army depot that is in our community, while I am the only 1 that I know of that uses it, the resource is there for our members, and if there is a gym in your first due, or even in a neighboring community maybe you could work out a discounted deal with the owners? something to think about. and if all else fails..doing a couple pushups or situps along with your daily routine will also help.

    As far as LA goes, you guys have to respect him if for nothing else then he stands his ground, right or wrong. I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the stuff he says, some of it makes sense, since I too come from a rural/semi-rural area with little to no public support or funding and we have to pinch pennies also. I'm not taking anyone's side, but maybe something happened to him during his career that made him think the way he does and have the opinions that he does..maybe he knew someone who got hurt? something might have struck a chord to make his thought process be the way it is.

    in closing, I would just like to say that, I'm not trying to take sides, or tick anyone off, but, this went from a kid who wants a pager to 400 pound firefighters and everything in between. I just felt like this needed a breath of fresh air. I really respect what all you guys have done in your respective careers and look forward to being where you guys are at when I'm at my peak.

    take care

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    If this is what the fire service is becoming then god help us.

    From LA "The fact is a fire in abandoned structure does not need to be attacked from the interior. A brush fire does not need to be aggressivly attacked and can be allowed to burn to a defensive perimter. A vehicle fire that is heavily involved on arrival can be put out with a deck gun."
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    What will you do when the majority of the FFs on the scene don't feel comfortable in performing an assigned task, due to the fact that they are out of shape, and or under trained? Who do you reassign the task to?

    I don't know as in 33 years with 8 different departments it has never happened. there have been incident where a couple of members who didn't like heights asked not be assigned to the roof, and other incidents where 1 or 2 firefighters asked not to be assigned to a certain task. It's really not a big deal. They are volunteers, not paid staff, and certainly, IMO, have the right to ask not to be assigned to a task that they are uncomfortable with.

    Decline a tasks? Oh, you mean refuse to follow an order. That sounds like a great way to do business.

    None of those 8 departments had an issue with a member saying after he was assigned a task that he was uncomfortable. In some cases it was a training issue. In other cases he was a little beat up and simply didn't feel physically up to it. And in other cases he simply did not feel comfortable with the level of risk or possibility of injury. Again, IMO, and obviously in the opinion of the command staff of all 8 departments, it wasn't a problem and wasn't viewed as refusing an order. I guess I feel that in a VFD you simply have to give members that leeway as they are not being paid. Being flexible is not a bad thing.




    And what is the "sign post" that you use to judge their inability to function physically as a FF? A heart attack? A stroke? Their inability to act that causes them to injure or kill another? What?

    No. Simple observations. How quickly do they use a bottle of air during training? Do they struggle with simple fireground tasks during training? Do they need a blow sooner that what would be expected? Are they able to keep up with the rest of the crew when performing team tasks? What do their vitals look like on the nights that we perform random medical monitoring?

    Our new members do a lot of little stuff on the fireground until we see how they perform. All of this stuff would come up during training or during the initial phases of being on the fireground, and it would be addressed quickly. Or should I say in past cases, it has been addressed quickly in the past.

    As I said, there are some obvious situations in terms of size and simple body movements where the red flag would come up as soon as they apply and they very well may be asked to produce a physician's note that states they can perform the tasks. That has been requested in the past. In the case of my VFD it would be obvious during the agility test.

    You can tell fairly quickly if there are issues with a members ability to perform the functions.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-16-2012 at 08:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    If this is what the fire service is becoming then god help us.

    From LA "The fact is a fire in abandoned structure does not need to be attacked from the interior. A brush fire does not need to be aggressivly attacked and can be allowed to burn to a defensive perimter. A vehicle fire that is heavily involved on arrival can be put out with a deck gun."
    And why is the above bad thing?

    Abandoned structures are almost always ... abandoned, or at least that's the case in the vast majority of the country. To enter a structure based on the random chance of finding a victim in areas where there is no or a very limited history of such makes no sense and puts members at unreasonable risk. Sorry but until you can show me that you will find victims in a abandoned structure in either my combo or volunteer district, IMO, it's a wanton disregard for member safety to send them in unless there is some credible information indicating that the structure IS occupied.

    The old line "the building is empty until we say so" is a line of crap that in many places is putting members at unnecessary and unreasonable risk, and getting them hurt for no valid reason.

    Are there places where vagrants are common? yes. But they are the exception and not the rule, and they need to play by a difference set of rules when compared to the rest of the country where that is not the case.

    As far as not aggressively attacking a brush fire and simply setting up a defensive perimeter, unless structures are threatened, where 's the problem. Please tell me why we should risk anything for brush?

    And how are we going to change the event on a heavily or fully involved vehicle fire by pulling a line and attacking the fire as compared to simply utilizing a heavy stream from a safe distance? Please tell me why we need to put members at risk for a totalled vehicle?

    Firefighting today needs to be about reducing risk and stress for the members. If we can simply set up defensive perimeter at a point where he have the advantage why not do it. if we have a vehicle burning heavily why not greatly reduce the risk and exertion to the members and knock it down with a master stream then just mop it up with a booster line? Why not simply use a master stream on a well involved structure that likely has been compromised rather than put members in harm's way by operating interior? Please tell me what we gain by being aggressive in these situations.

    The fires are hotter, including vehicles. Wildland fires are more volatile, And structures burn hotter and fail sooner. We owe it to our members to back down what we do a notch or two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And why is the above bad thing?
    Because unlike you he chose to be a firefighter. If all he wanted to do was wear the uniform, he could have gotten one at Galls.
    Last edited by scfire86; 06-16-2012 at 09:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Because unlike you he chose to be a firefighter. If all he wanted to do was wear the uniform, he could have gotten one at Galls.
    BOO YAH!!

    Nice, very nice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Because unlike you he chose to be a firefighter. If all he wanted to do was wear the uniform, he could have gotten one at Galls.
    So in other words, to be a firefighter, you always have to take risks, even when there is no gain in doing so?

    What is the benefit in being aggressive on a brush fire when there are no structures threatened? What is the gain on a heavily or fully involved vehicle fire? What is taking risks going to affect regarding the outcome?

    I will acknowledge that the abandoned house situation does have some variables, such as the frequency of occupancy in each area. But as has been discussed, there is very high unlikelihood that there will be anyone in an abandoned structure in this area, while at the same time abandoned structures offer a much higher likelihood of firefighter injury. The very low likelihood of gain simply does not match the high likelihood of injury. I simply find it impossible to justify the risk in my area unless there is some specific outward evidence or information indicating occupancy.

    Your logic that because you are firefighter you should pull and handline rather than a master stream or fight a fire aggressive rather than letting it burn out to a defensive perimeter simply makes no sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    BOO YAH!!

    Nice, very nice.
    Again, justify the risk with no gain.

    And because you are a firefighter does not justify it.

    There comes a time when every profession needs to look in the mirror and ask if it's operations are doing everything it can to minimize employee injuries.

    Saying we have to do something "because we are firefighters" does not make any sense.
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  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So in other words, to be a firefighter, you always have to take risks, even when there is no gain in doing so?

    What is the benefit in being aggressive on a brush fire when there are no structures threatened? What is the gain on a heavily or fully involved vehicle fire? What is taking risks going to affect regarding the outcome?

    I will acknowledge that the abandoned house situation does have some variables, such as the frequency of occupancy in each area. But as has been discussed, there is very high unlikelihood that there will be anyone in an abandoned structure in this area, while at the same time abandoned structures offer a much higher likelihood of firefighter injury. The very low likelihood of gain simply does not match the high likelihood of injury. I simply find it impossible to justify the risk in my area unless there is some specific outward evidence or information indicating occupancy.

    Your logic that because you are firefighter you should pull and handline rather than a master stream or fight a fire aggressive rather than letting it burn out to a defensive perimeter simply makes no sense.
    Blah blah blah. All your bellyaching does is prove you have no interest in doing this job other than trying to claim you are something you aren't.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, justify the risk with no gain.

    Who said anything about risk with no gain? I am not going to charge into a structure that is fully involved or suffering partial collapse. Why? Because those odds of victim survival are very low. You want any sign of involvement as an excuse not to enter at all. Sorry, we aren't even in the same universe on this topic. You keep repeating the same nonsense that those of us that aren't in your camp are suicidal maniacs that charge in blindly to every situation. Not a chance, we use all of of training, education, experience and instincts to know when we belieive it is viable or not. That is what truly galls you, the fact that your blanket statements are a bunch of BS and in your heart of hearts even you know it.

    And because you are a firefighter does not justify it.

    And because you have done everything you can to decimate the honor and traditions of the fire service with your idiotic rantings that you simply can't defend, it doesn't justify your calling yourself a firefighter.

    There comes a time when every profession needs to look in the mirror and ask if it's operations are doing everything it can to minimize employee injuries.

    And WE do. The fact that we refuse to stand on the curb and lob water into anything more than a trash can fire doesn't mean we don't strive to reduce firefighter injuries and deaths. We spend time training, and reviewing incidents elsewhere, to make us better at decision making and tactics and strategies. We don't make every fire or every scene too dangerous to enter. That seems to be your agenda.

    Saying we have to do something "because we are firefighters" does not make any sense.

    Neither does justifying doing the barest of minimums because you might get injured. You just can't see the difference between inaction and smart decision making based action. My job is to protect life and property, the citizens, my Brother firefighters, and my own. My job is not to do nothing because I might get a boo boo.
    I am sick to death of people trying to make firefighting 100% as safe as laying in your bed at home. It is IMPOSSIBLE. I am not saying accept injuries and deaths. But I am saying the odds of them occurring increase when you actually go inside buildings on fire to search for victims and to put out the fire.

    I am sick to death of safety sallies, nancy boys, arm chair warriors, and pussies, that pontificate about the fire service when they don't know their a s s from a hole in the ground. The job is saving lives and property WHENEVER WE CAN. That entails risk. if you aren't willing to put forward ANY RISK AT ALL to your safety to do this job then please be quiet and go lay down by your water dish. It has nothing to do with a death wish, it has to do with DOING THE JOB!
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-16-2012 at 11:18 PM.
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  25. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Blah blah blah. All your bellyaching does is prove you have no interest in doing this job other than trying to claim you are something you aren't.
    So "doing the job" means you always should take risks even when there is nothing to save and there is a far less risky way to accomplish the same goals?


    That is simply asinine.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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