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Thread: I'm getting a Pager?

  1. #221
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Posted by scfire86...


    Both those professions would be too dangerous for Bobbby... he might burn his fingers taking something out of the oven or get nipped by a Chihuahua....
    How could he get burned? He wouldn't go in the kitchen it would be to hot in there.

    How would he get nipped? Being within 10 feet of that dog would risk his financial future!!
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  2. #222
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    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator

    Given that I have done this for 30 years before being hired, and still continue to do it as a volunteer in a seperate department, I hardly think that money is my motivator.

    It has been your excuse for not acting to even attempt to rescue a civilian you came upon "OFF DUTY." Which is a funny term for a volunteer firefighter since so many like to claim they are "On the job 24/7/365."

    No, that's not about making money. I's about the ability to meet my obligation, or the obligation of any volunteer to be able to fufill thier responsibilities at home. Sorry, but no work means no food, heat, gas or mortgage payment and that is, like it or not, far more important than anything we'll ever respond to.

    That is why volunteer injuries are such a hot button issue with me.


    I guess if you want to call staying the hell out of abondoned buildings unless there's a damned good reason to go inside, reducing the number of offensive operations to savable property and realistic rescues, slowing down, buckling up, expanding the manpower pool for VFDs by adding exterior positions and training on local conditions and resources as determined by the local fire department vs. following a generic cookie-cutter standard certification class that may or may not meet the actua operational needs of your departmentl, so be it.

    Nice attempt at a diversion, but it is TOTALLY irrelevant to what we are talking about about. We are clearly talking about coming upon a car fire where the occupants need assistance getting out of the car, or a structure fire where occupants need help escaping the building. How about you stay on topic for once instead of trying to change the subject to some other nonsense?

    You just don't get it and never will.


    And guess what ... that is the responsibility of the local fire department who will arrive with members in PPE, water and the right tools to do the job. It's not the responsibility of off-duty or out of district firefighters in a POV with none of the above.

    I fully support any trained resoponder doing what nthey can until the AHJ arrives, but that does not mean becoming injured and not being able to work in the process.I have done it countless times in my career, but there is alimit, and that situation was something that I would not have become involved in, nor recoomend that any off-duty firefighter become involved in.

    You may be right. I probably don't "get it".

    My obligation to provide for my wife and kids does take priority in my life, especially in my volunteer role where age and medical protections are limited or non-existant. In the end, they are more important than the citizens.

    That's what "I get".

    If you call that not being in the tradition of a selfless fireighter, so be it.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-13-2012 at 05:04 PM.
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  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    This paragraph by you shows what a hypocritical out of touch with reality person you really are. You want to save lives of firefighters by not running lights and sirens, but have shredded the importance of annual physicals that very well might detect the heart disease of the 400 pound exterior firefighter and save his life.
    I have no issues with physicals as long as there is assistance to pay for them in rural VFDs that will not force them to take money away from an already limited budget to meet this mandate, and that there be some form of outside assistance to deal with the manpower losses that will result.

    That has been my position all along.
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  4. #224
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    Yup.

    It's a good thing you understand that injuring a volunteer has the potential to cost him, and more importantly his family, a lot of money, especially if he is injured operating out of his district where his department's medical insurance and workman's comp policy would likely not apply.

    But that's not important as he has kept up the "traditions of the fire service".

    Of course, that's not going to buy his family food or pay the rent, but that's really not that important after all.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-13-2012 at 04:57 PM.
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  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty42 View Post
    Here is the difference that separates you from the rest of us.....BROTHERHOOD. Knowing that fellow brothers and sisters in the fire service would step up and pitch in where needed in a time of need provides me the comfort that I would not have to hesitate to jump in off duty and do the right thing. Service to your fellow man....what a concept!
    And I am sure that there would be brother firefighters that could do what they can, but even those resources are limited and in the event of a serious or long-term injury, that support, especially financial support, would waiver.

    The point is that an out of district injury that would require time off from work could be devestating to a family, especially those living on the edge, which in this area, constittues the bulk of our volunteer base. As supervisors, preventing injury to them does need to be probably the most important concern at the scene of an incident, even if that means additional property damage and the decsion not to attempt a high risk/low probability rescue.
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  6. #226
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Thanks guys....got some good chuckles these last few pages....
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #227
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup.

    It's a good thing you understand that injuring a volunteer has the potential to cost him, and more importantly his family, a lot of money, especially if he is injured operating out of his district where his department's medical insurance and workman's comp policy would likely not apply.
    If there is such a concern for getting injured, this is the wrong profession.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But that's not important as he has kept up the "traditions of the fire service".
    Which is of course a nonsense claim. Your belief is that fear of injury should allow one the rationalization to not act at all. Which is a much different standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Of course, that's not going to buy his family food or pay the rent, but that's really not that important after all.
    Then he (or she) should find something else to occupy their time instead of pretending to be a firefighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you call that not being in the tradition of a selfless fireighter, so be it.
    Yup. That's what it is called. JFK had a sign on his desk that read "know thyself." Seems to us you've got that one down.
    Last edited by scfire86; 06-13-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    If there is such a concern for getting injured, this is the wrong profession.

    The trick is for a volunteer this isn't a profession. the full-time job that pays the bills is. They are simply doing it to help the community. Helping the community shouldn't mean they have to accept an injury as part of the job, and not be able to work and pay the bills.


    Which is of course a nonsense claim. Your belief is that fear of injury should allow one the rationalization to not act at all. Which is a much different standard.

    You use the word fear. This isn't fear. this is about realizing the concequences to a volunteer member's family when an injury occurs and making the prevention of injuries an operational priority.


    Then he (or she) should find something else to occupy their time instead of pretending to be a firefighter.

    Maybe they should. or maybe the department should recognize the impact of injuries to a volunteer's family and eithere enatct additional wage and medical protections, such as department-funded subsadies to make up the difference between the workman comp's check and the volunteer's actual paycheck, like some department's have done, or operate in aless aggressive manner to minimize the chance of injuries, like others have done. Or both.

    Again, if a volunteer tells me he does not want to perform atask because he is concerned about injury, I fully respect that. That's not fear.



    Yup. That's what it is called. JFK had a sign on his desk that read "know thyself." Seems to us you've got that one down.
    I know exactly what I will and will not do.
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  9. #229
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The trick is for a volunteer this isn't a profession. the full-time job that pays the bills is. They are simply doing it to help the community. Helping the community shouldn't mean they have to accept an injury as part of the job, and not be able to work and pay the bills.
    The public doesn't differentiate nor does it care when they need someone to help them. The risk of injury is part of the job from the time a unit is dispatched. I've had several of my colleagues whose careers were ended because the units they were riding were hit by careless motorists. Using your logic they would be justified in not responding because the roadways can be too dangerous.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You use the word fear. This isn't fear. this is about realizing the concequences to a volunteer member's family when an injury occurs and making the prevention of injuries an operational priority.
    You just restated what I wrote with a bunch of nonsense to rationalize your not doing your job.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Maybe they should. or maybe the department should recognize the impact of injuries to a volunteer's family and eithere enatct additional wage and medical protections, such as department-funded subsadies to make up the difference between the workman comp's check and the volunteer's actual paycheck, like some department's have done, or operate in aless aggressive manner to minimize the chance of injuries, like others have done. Or both.
    Or maybe they should do something else if they are that concerned about being injured by doing their jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, if a volunteer tells me he does not want to perform atask because he is concerned about injury, I fully respect that. That's not fear.
    Of course you would. You also don't want to do anything. It makes perfect sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I know exactly what I will and will not do.
    Which is pretty much nothing other than wear the uniform and pretend you know what you are doing.
    Last edited by scfire86; 06-13-2012 at 05:35 PM.
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  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The public doesn't differentiate nor does it care when they need someone to help them. The risk of injury is part of the job from the time a unit is dispatched. I've had several of my colleagues whose careers were ended because the units they were riding were hit by careless motorists.

    So we do what we can to minimize that risks. Fewer interior operations. No operations in abondoned structures. Quicker pull out when situations go bad. Requiring PPE all the time - NO excuses. Drive slower. Stop fully at every single intersection. Fewer hot responses. Seatbelts. We simply do not need to be injuring 100,000 firefighters per year. That is simply unacceptable.

    Do you that probably sounds like not doing the job. To me it's simple risk management and injury reduction.




    You just restated what I wrote with a bunch of nonsense to rationalize your not doing your job.

    Again, how you define and I define the job are two very different things.


    Or maybe they should do something else if they are that concerned about being injured by doing their jobs.

    Or maybe we just make the fireground a safer place by minimizing risk.


    Of course you would. You also don't want to do anything. It makes perfect sense.

    I would hardly say I don't want to do anything but I would love to see the service realize they are taking risks in structures that simply are no longer justifiable due to fire load, construction and manpower.

    We need to significantly change the way we do business. Some departments get that. Others are working towards it. Sadly there are some that don't get it and likely never will.

    There are times that risk is justifable. Sadly, much of the risk we take is not.



    Which is pretty much nothing other than wear the uniform and pretend you know what you are doing.
    If that's what you say. It's not the case, but hey, say what you wish.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-13-2012 at 05:40 PM.
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  11. #231
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no issues with physicals as long as there is assistance to pay for them in rural VFDs that will not force them to take money away from an already limited budget to meet this mandate, and that there be some form of outside assistance to deal with the manpower losses that will result.

    That has been my position all along.
    Just admit that you are okay with that 400 pound firefighter dying of a heart attack from an easily detected and possibly fixable heart ailment because physicals cost too much. His death is more financially acceptable to you than finding a way to fund physicals. Do you realize how pathetic that sounds?
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Just admit that you are okay with that 400 pound firefighter dying of a heart attack from an easily detected and possibly fixable heart ailment because physicals cost too much. His death is more financially acceptable to you than finding a way to fund physicals. Do you realize how pathetic that sounds?
    Tell me how a rural department operating on 30K is going to "find" a couple of hundred dollars per man to fund physicals?

    So what do we cut? The PPE that NEEDS to be replaced? The 30-year old SCBA on the first due engine? New radios that actually work? The brakes on that second out tanker that are a "little sketchy"?

    Tell me what is more important... the chance that he may die on the fireground from a cardiac issue or the chance that the 30-year old SCBA may finally fail in a fire, or the gear that should have been taken out of service will fail at the next response. Which one is the most severe risk?

    The fact is physicals would be a great thing. But so would gear that actually would pass inspection, modern SCBA, modern radios and apapratus with 100% reliable brakes. 30K won't buy all of that. In fact, it will buy very little. So which one is the priority?

    In the long run, firefighting is a personal choice and so are the concquences that go with it. maybe that physical is the responsibility of that firefighter, not the taxpayers. Maybe he should be getting his own physicals.
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  13. #233
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Tell me how a rural department operating on 30K is going to "find" a couple of hundred dollars per man to fund physicals?

    So what do we cut? The PPE that NEEDS to be replaced? The 30-year old SCBA on the first due engine? New radios that actually work? The brakes on that second out tanker that are a "little sketchy"?

    Tell me what is more important... the chance that he may die on the fireground from a cardiac issue or the chance that the 30-year old SCBA may finally fail in a fire, or the gear that should have been taken out of service will fail at the next response. Which one is the most severe risk?

    The fact is physicals would be a great thing. But so would gear that actually would pass inspection, modern SCBA, modern radios and apapratus with 100% reliable brakes. 30K won't buy all of that. In fact, it will buy very little. So which one is the priority?

    In the long run, firefighting is a personal choice and so are the concquences that go with it. maybe that physical is the responsibility of that firefighter, not the taxpayers. Maybe he should be getting his own physicals.
    So you are actually saying here, in print, that a firefighter death from a heart attack is acceptable to you. You are also saying that that 400 pound firefighter, that any doctor, even a veterinarian, would say has no business on a fireground, is more responsible for his health and safety than the fire department is. Despite the fact that anyone with a lick of common sense would tell you the guy is a walking heart attack waiting to explode and die right there.

    Keep making excuses, keep shunning the repsonsibility "Oh Great and Powerful FIRE EDUCATOR." It is hysterical how you run from any danger that may cause you a hang nail but are perfectly okay with the obese tub of lard dropping over from a heart attack because physicals are too expensive. God you are now beyond pathetic and into pathological...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  14. #234
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So what do we cut? The PPE that NEEDS to be replaced? The 30-year old SCBA on the first due engine? New radios that actually work? The brakes on that second out tanker that are a "little sketchy"?
    Why, the Fire Prevention budget of course!
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  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If that's what you say. It's not the case, but hey, say what you wish.
    It's actually what you say. I'm sure you think you're being very clever in making it difficult to quote your posts. That's fine, it doesn't change the fact that you're disgrace to the fire service.

    But you already knew that.
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  16. #236
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Tell me how a rural department operating on 30K is going to "find" a couple of hundred dollars per man to fund physicals?

    So what do we cut? The PPE that NEEDS to be replaced? The 30-year old SCBA on the first due engine? New radios that actually work? The brakes on that second out tanker that are a "little sketchy"?

    Tell me what is more important... the chance that he may die on the fireground from a cardiac issue or the chance that the 30-year old SCBA may finally fail in a fire, or the gear that should have been taken out of service will fail at the next response. Which one is the most severe risk?

    The fact is physicals would be a great thing. But so would gear that actually would pass inspection, modern SCBA, modern radios and apapratus with 100% reliable brakes. 30K won't buy all of that. In fact, it will buy very little. So which one is the priority?

    In the long run, firefighting is a personal choice and so are the concquences that go with it. maybe that physical is the responsibility of that firefighter, not the taxpayers. Maybe he should be getting his own physicals.
    Then just accept the fact that your joke of a department is staffed by jokes like you.
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  17. #237
    Forum Member Chenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Tell me what is more important... the chance that he may die on the fireground from a cardiac issue or the chance that the 30-year old SCBA may finally fail in a fire, or the gear that should have been taken out of service will fail at the next response. Which one is the most severe risk?
    You're kidding me, right? Like, this is a joke? I'm on Punk'd right now right? Ashton Kutcher is gonna run down the hallway any second and scream "WE GOTCHUUUU!!!!!!"

    Mr. "Death in the fire service is unacceptable. Injury in the fire service is unacceptable. Unnecessary risk anywhere in life is unacceptable.", Just said that it's okay for the fat guy to die on the fire scene, as long as the guy inside in his SCBA and turnout gear survives. You're ****ting me, right?

    How is allowing a 400lb man/woman/whatever, on the fire ground, without medical clearance not an unnecessary risk? Why is the 400lb "exterior operations only" mans life any less important than the guy you sent inside with $2,200 worth of brand new PPE, a $4,000 brand new SCBA, and a $2,000 fancy new radio?

    PLEASE, I BEG YOU, respond to this post. I would l-o-v-e, LOVE for everyone to see how you try and back peddle out of this one....
    scfire86 and BULL321 like this.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So you are actually saying here, in print, that a firefighter death from a heart attack is acceptable to you. You are also saying that that 400 pound firefighter, that any doctor, even a veterinarian, would say has no business on a fireground, is more responsible for his health and safety than the fire department is. Despite the fact that anyone with a lick of common sense would tell you the guy is a walking heart attack waiting to explode and die right there.

    Keep making excuses, keep shunning the repsonsibility "Oh Great and Powerful FIRE EDUCATOR." It is hysterical how you run from any danger that may cause you a hang nail but are perfectly okay with the obese tub of lard dropping over from a heart attack because physicals are too expensive. God you are now beyond pathetic and into pathological...

    No, a firefighter death is not acceptable.

    But making a rural fire department dip into a budget that barely covers fuel and truck maintenance to pay for physicals is not the answer either. Rural fire departments simply do not have the money to pay for physicals that would likely detect the "underlying cardiac problem" in the example you have mentioned. All that would do is cut into the one or two sets of turnouts they may be able to replace this year or the modern SCBA they may be able to afford to purchase every year.

    Are there things that a department can do to ensure some level of fitness? Sure. Have the local EMS service perform vitals checks every 3 months or so a develop a guideline regarding BP and pulse. Do it in-house if you have medical personnel. if you have access to paramedics run 4-leads and 12-leads for anyone suspicious. Have the department do medical monitoring on-scene and track the vitals for later review. Do a pre-employment obstacle course to determine fitness levels. We have such a pre-employment physical at my VFD where they demonstrate the ability to perform specific tasks within a specific time frame, and if they can't, they are eligible for support but not line firefighting.

    I never said they should do nothing but to dictate a mandate that all fire departments irregardless of their budgets shall ....... will not solve any problems. It will only make the problems in other areas such as PPE, training, SCBA and communications worse, which actually may lead to failures and resulting injuries and deaths.

    It's not my place on either of my departments to make and determine policy. I have no input on matters such as this and quite honestly at this stage in my career I really care not to be in a position where I would be involved in these types of decisions. I enjoy being where I am and what I do and I am perfectly happy leaving these matters to the folks that want to be involved in these matters.

    The command staff has decided that we will not do ,physicals for volunteers and only pre-employment on career personnel. That is the decision of the command staff, and they call the shots.

    Bottom line is most volunteers are big boys, and I'm sure that 400 lb member knows he has issues, but he is a grownup and can decide for himself what he wants to do. Maybe I'm just a believer in that people can take responsibility for their own lives. Should the Chief have a discussion with him? Probably. But that's the job of the Chief, not a LT or Senior Firefighter. And last I checked, Chief not my title.

    Frankly, you should talk. Your willing to allow members operate in an abandoned structure for no reason other than that bull***" lines of "a building isn't empty until we say it is" or "because we are fireman and that's what we are SUPPOSED to do" is IMO just as irresponsible as your feelings regarding my stance on physicals. At least I support not throwing members into abandoned structures like cannon fodure just to maintain some idealistic image or some crap about tradition and pride.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-13-2012 at 10:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Why, the Fire Prevention budget of course!
    I'm sure that any department operating on 30K doesn't have a fire prevention budget.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Then just accept the fact that your joke of a department is staffed by jokes like you.
    Neither of my departments run on 30K.

    My combo department runs on an operating budget of 800K with another 300K dedicated to capital savings.

    My volunteer department runs on 100K with 50K devoted to debt and capital savings.

    But a budget of 30k is not unusual in the rural departments from here to Mississippi and much of central LA.

    Tell them that they need to put less fuel in the trucks and spend that money on physicals. They'll tell you exactly what they think of that idea. And that includes the line firefighters.
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