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Thread: I'm getting a Pager?

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    They are acts of God.

    What I can't figure out is- if he is really as passionate as he says he is about protecting the volunteers from injury due to the fact that they have no workmans comp coverage- why does he not either stop them from volunteering alltogether (god forbid they break a fingernail) or use his energy to fight for laws to mandate workmans comp coverage in the state for the volunteers......oh, wait....god forbid they poor, defenseless volunteer departments have to put money out of their pockets for workmans comp insurance instead of the municipality........ as it is right now, anyone who volunteers in the state of La. without workmans comp coverage is certifiably insane....
    All volunteer FDs in Arkansas have workmans comp paid for by the state.And free fire training -and unless I am missing something , AR is as or more rural than LA (lower arkansas)
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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    They are acts of God.

    What I can't figure out is- if he is really as passionate as he says he is about protecting the volunteers from injury due to the fact that they have no workmans comp coverage- why does he not either stop them from volunteering alltogether (god forbid they break a fingernail) or use his energy to fight for laws to mandate workmans comp coverage in the state for the volunteers......oh, wait....god forbid they poor, defenseless volunteer departments have to put money out of their pockets for workmans comp insurance instead of the municipality........ as it is right now, anyone who volunteers in the state of La. without workmans comp coverage is certifiably insane....

    Volunteers have workman's comp coverage for medical bills but there is no compensation for missed days from work.

    Career members either are civil service with full coverage for missed time from work up to 364 days in a calender year or if not a civil service department, does have lost wage protection from workman's comp at I believe 80%.

    There have been numerous attempts, as I understand it, to get LA Workman's Comp to change it's position on the volunteer missed time issue but they have not budged. It was a major fight just to get them to cover Jr. Firefighters who may be injured.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    We've kind of got off topic a bit. I've enjoyed the crap out of it but we still went slightly off into left field. That being said, and in keep with the theme of this thread, how can you justified allowing a 14 year old child to have a pager, when he can't respond? Allowing a child under 18 to ride a the rig code 3, as you stated you do? Would not these actions possible get the child needlessly hurt for little or no gain? As you clearly believe that we are needlessly injuring our men, why are willing to put a child in harms way?



    By the way happy Father's Day to you and rest of the guys. I might not like what you say. I might not hardly ever agree with you, but this is the "Fire House" and we can still be somewhat civil to each other when we not kicking the poop out of one another!
    We allow juniors at 14 to respond on trucks..obviously they get bumped if someone senior comes..they are usually restricted to fire ground support, i.e. help the pump operator, help change packs out and assist in refilling them etc. not allowed to go into an IDLH atmosphere and are not allowed to exit the truck if the road is not totally shut down.

    I don't agree with giving 14 year olds gear, or a pager..I think that if they want to train, go ahead, come to drills, learn the equipment and how to use it etc but there is no need for a 14 year old on a fire truck, fire ground, or accident scene.

    16 year olds on the other hand..in all honesty..if we allow 16 year olds to drive 2500 pound killing machines alone then I don't see an issue with them riding on an apparatus to a call..they can be an asset at times, freeing up senior interior members from tasks that they can perform. just my opinion..

    and happy father's day to all you guys out there.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    All volunteer FDs in Arkansas have workmans comp paid for by the state.And free fire training -and unless I am missing something , AR is as or more rural than LA (lower arkansas)
    Once you get north of Baton Rouge, I would say that both states are equally rural.

    There have been several attempts by LSU Fire training to get a bigger share of the insurance rebate so they could offer free or very low cost training.

    Unfortunately, there has been little support by the fire service as any increase in LSU's share would likely cut into the fire department's share. Obviously, because of the lack of fire service support, there has been even less legislative support.

    Does ARK provide wage protection to volunteers injured during firefighting operations?
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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    We allow juniors at 14 to respond on trucks..obviously they get bumped if someone senior comes..they are usually restricted to fire ground support, i.e. help the pump operator, help change packs out and assist in refilling them etc. not allowed to go into an IDLH atmosphere and are not allowed to exit the truck if the road is not totally shut down.

    I don't agree with giving 14 year olds gear, or a pager..I think that if they want to train, go ahead, come to drills, learn the equipment and how to use it etc but there is no need for a 14 year old on a fire truck, fire ground, or accident scene.

    16 year olds on the other hand..in all honesty..if we allow 16 year olds to drive 2500 pound killing machines alone then I don't see an issue with them riding on an apparatus to a call..they can be an asset at times, freeing up senior interior members from tasks that they can perform. just my opinion..

    and happy father's day to all you guys out there.
    IMO 14 is too young.

    We allow 15 year-olds, if they have a relative on the department to be involved. They are assigned to me, and work fire prevention. They are issued gear but do not respond to calls.

    At 16, they are allowed to go on calls and handle support tasks- lugging gear, changing bottles, setting up lighting, etc. They are allowed to participate in active fire supression during training under direct supervision.
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  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Apparently, in LA, empty buildings self combust. There is never anyone inside that caused the fire to start.
    I acknowledged several posts ago that most fires in abandoned structures are started intentionally or accidentally by kids.

    I also stated that in the vast majority of situations, the person or persons that started the fire are long gone by the time the fire department arrives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    IMO 14 is too young.

    We allow 15 year-olds, if they have a relative on the department to be involved. They are assigned to me, and work fire prevention. They are issued gear but do not respond to calls.

    At 16, they are allowed to go on calls and handle support tasks- lugging gear, changing bottles, setting up lighting, etc. They are allowed to participate in active fire supression during training under direct supervision.
    IEEO (In everyone else's opinion) you have no clue. So please quit posting on a topic where it has become obvious that you know nothing about it.

    Your expertise is far better suited here.
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    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I acknowledged several posts ago that most fires in abandoned structures are started intentionally or accidentally by kids.

    I also stated that in the vast majority of situations, the person or persons that started the fire are long gone by the time the fire department arrives.
    How do you know they are gone? You stated your department doesn't make any entry in buildings like this....so how do you know they are gone? Honest question.


    Years ago, we had a 3 story house that was abandoned and boarded up. For a couple years, we would have 2 or 3 fires a year in the house. Was always discussion on whether to let it burn or put it out. Each time we made entry and put the fire out. Found kids/adults in there a few times. I know what we did to see if the building was empty or not....I'm wondering what you do/how you know?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    How do you know they are gone? You stated your department doesn't make any entry in buildings like this....so how do you know they are gone? Honest question.


    Years ago, we had a 3 story house that was abandoned and boarded up. For a couple years, we would have 2 or 3 fires a year in the house. Was always discussion on whether to let it burn or put it out. Each time we made entry and put the fire out. Found kids/adults in there a few times. I know what we did to see if the building was empty or not....I'm wondering what you do/how you know?
    He's stated in the past that other lives don't concern him if it means he might get an owweee.
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    We need a culture of risk management? We -are- risk management. We came about due to the risk towards unprotected, unskilled civilian by unrestrained fire. Our existence was built upon taking on the risk to help the odds of those in danger. Situations and scenarios change but we still exist due to the need for risk management. Boating is also dangerous and one would say that boats are much safer when in the harbor but that's not why boats were invented, is it? The same logic applies to us as we are much safer standing around outside and spraying water in (or not even responding at all) but thats not why we were invented.

    Side note- The S. S. Eastland sank in the Chicago River, and took 884 people with it. That's over half of what the Titanic lost, and the Eastland never left the shore. Boats are safer in the harbor, but still not completely safe. We never invented boats to just float around in the safety of the harbor. We weren't invented to save ourselves, but to save others.
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  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    How do you know they are gone? You stated your department doesn't make any entry in buildings like this....so how do you know they are gone? Honest question.

    And it's a reasonable question. the fact is we respond to very few abandoned building fires (one every 2-3 years) and the building being occupied have never been a problem we encountered. Is that a valid reason? Maybe. Maybe not. But I guess that depends on your point of view. Yes, experiences shapes a department's operations, and that is our experience. The officer does have the flexability to make entry if he/she feels that based on his observations the building may be occupied. The policy also states that we will make entry if information is avaialble that indicates the building may be occupied. We simply feel that unless wehave a reason to make entry the issues and hazards posed by the conditions and hazards of an abandoned structure do make firefighter safety the overriding issue in these structures.

    Years ago, we had a 3 story house that was abandoned and boarded up. For a couple years, we would have 2 or 3 fires a year in the house. Was always discussion on whether to let it burn or put it out. Each time we made entry and put the fire out. Found kids/adults in there a few times. I know what we did to see if the building was empty or not....I'm wondering what you do/how you know?
    We don't know. It is a calculated risk. As I said, the officer has the flexibility to make entry.

    Yes, it could be occupied.

    On a personal note, I would never make entry unless I KNEW that the building was occupied or allowing it to burn created the risk of damage to occupied structures. That's just me.
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  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    He's stated in the past that other lives don't concern him if it means he might get an owweee.
    Not the truth and you know it.

    I have stated many times that risk is acceptable for lives and to a limited extent for occupied property with value.

    As far as abondeoned property, in our area, including that VFD the possibility of occupancy is unlikely.

    Again, part of my job is to make sure that my volunteers can go to work the next day. Sure, bruises, strains and sprains will happen but will likely not prevent the family from recievinbg a paycheck. More serious injuries will, and yes, that needs to be a a paramount concern for volunteer fire officers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    We need a culture of risk management? We -are- risk management. We came about due to the risk towards unprotected, unskilled civilian by unrestrained fire. Our existence was built upon taking on the risk to help the odds of those in danger. Situations and scenarios change but we still exist due to the need for risk management. Boating is also dangerous and one would say that boats are much safer when in the harbor but that's not why boats were invented, is it? The same logic applies to us as we are much safer standing around outside and spraying water in (or not even responding at all) but thats not why we were invented.

    Side note- The S. S. Eastland sank in the Chicago River, and took 884 people with it. That's over half of what the Titanic lost, and the Eastland never left the shore. Boats are safer in the harbor, but still not completely safe. We never invented boats to just float around in the safety of the harbor. We weren't invented to save ourselves, but to save others.
    And that is true.

    That being said, the risk of loss of human lives are involvedin avery small percentageof our non-EMS responses. Obviously an urban area will see more of these types of calls but I would still bet that a direst threat occurs less than 5% of the ime, even in the largest urban areas.

    Yet, there are those that seem to treat every call as a direct threat to life. That is irresponsible.

    As I said, in 33 years of doing this, structures were occupied a small handful of the time. And I would bet that most firefighters with a similiar background would have the same experiences. You, and other posters do a lot of talking about "saving victims" and while that does happen, far more often than not it's simply about property, and not saving lives.

    I have saved far more lives running MVAs and EMS than I would ever save in fires. The situations in most communities are simply that infrequent.

    Most of our calls can be handled with a cold response. Some may require a hot response, but in can be very non-aggressive hot response. Only a very small portion of our calls require a truly hot response.

    And in the cases where a vehicle or structure is lost when we arrive, hit it with a master stream, then mop up.

    We have the right to go home every single night and after every single call. The plight of a civilian does not take that right away from us. We have an obligation to do what we can within the resources we have on hand, but that obligation does not oblige us to become seriously injured or die in the effort.

    We disagree on that and always will.
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  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We don't know. It is a calculated risk. As I said, the officer has the flexibility to make entry.

    Yes, it could be occupied.

    On a personal note, I would never make entry unless I KNEW that the building was occupied or allowing it to burn created the risk of damage to occupied structures. That's just me.
    So, for your department based on the last few years....are the officers/crews making that entry more often than not?

    I get your own personal thought/action. I'm wondering about the rest of your department.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    So, for your department based on the last few years....are the officers/crews making that entry more often than not?

    Most of the officers are making entry into abandoned structures. As I said, it's a rare event for us. The last abandoned building fire we responded to was probably 2 years ago. The fire was limited to a couple of windows on arrival and the building was fairly intact.

    The fire previous to that was probably a year sooner. same building and same conditions. Entry was made.

    Both of those were not typical abandoned building fires for us. The majority of the time, abandoned buildings in our area tend to be heavily or fully involved on arrival due to the fact that those types of properties tend to be in the outlying parts of the district, with extended response times for the majority of our manpower/apparatus. In those situations, I would expect that most officers would (and have) operate(d) exterior only.

    In both cases, I personnally would likely not have made entry.


    I get your own personal thought/action. I'm wondering about the rest of your department.
    Again, most of my combo department leadership is more aggressive than I. The policy basically stands so that in the event an inexperienced crew responds, they have a policy to follow. Unfortuantly, most of the officers will make entry.

    I disagree with it.
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  16. #316
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    You knew the building was empty before they ever made entry or did they make entry and later find it to be empty?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    You knew the building was empty before they ever made entry or did they make entry and later find it to be empty?
    In assume you are referring to the examples above.

    They did not know if the building was empty or not when they decided to make entry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    We allow juniors at 14 to respond on trucks..obviously they get bumped if someone senior comes..they are usually restricted to fire ground support, i.e. help the pump operator, help change packs out and assist in refilling them etc. not allowed to go into an IDLH atmosphere and are not allowed to exit the truck if the road is not totally shut down.

    No need for 14 year olds on fire apparatus responding hot, or for them to even be on an emergency sene at all.

    I don't agree with giving 14 year olds gear, or a pager..I think that if they want to train, go ahead, come to drills, learn the equipment and how to use it etc but there is no need for a 14 year old on a fire truck, fire ground, or accident scene.

    We do agree on this part of your post.

    16 year olds on the other hand..in all honesty..if we allow 16 year olds to drive 2500 pound killing machines alone then I don't see an issue with them riding on an apparatus to a call..they can be an asset at times, freeing up senior interior members from tasks that they can perform. just my opinion..

    If this is the best argument you have for allowing 16 year olds to ride on fire apparatus and operate on a fire ground al I can do is shak my head in amazement. Do explain how you feel having a driver's license relates in any way to operating on an emergency scene.

    and happy father's day to all you guys out there.

    And the same to you.

    I just see kids on the fireground as dangerous and unnecessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I just see kids on the fireground as dangerous and unnecessary.

    I don't agree with our dept's policy with 14 year olds..it is in place and it is what it is.

    As far as the drivers license justifying letting a 16 year old to ride a fire truck..I'll justify it by saying this..driving emergent to a call..would you say that it is more dangerous then letting a 16 year old go out on a Friday night driving around by himself or worse, with friends trying to impress girls and giving into peer pressure?

    I know what my friends and I did when we were 16 driving around, we thought we were untouchable, and it had nothing to do with how I was raised or my morals/values..it had to do with having a new sense of freedom not having to ride with a parent all the time..it felt like we were adults, however, we obviously weren't.

    Now, your faced with a choice..let your 16-17 year old son/daughter go on a call, with a qualified apparatus/driver operator..and operate under the direct supervision of firefighters like yourself..or giving them the keys to your car and tell him, hey, be back by 11.

    Now, once again, this scenario does not reflect at all on you as a father or your wife as a mother or your parenting skills collectively..things happen, it is what it is. and in all honesty, what makes a 16 year old more mature then an 18 year old..or a 17 year old more mature then an 18 year old..or an 18 year old more mature then a 21 year old? a 16 year old who works 1 or 2 jobs and does good in school, plays sports or a 21 year old who smokes pot does dishes part time and lives in his mothers basement like a leach? maturity/responsibility does not have an age limit..if a 16 year old walks into my firehouse and is like I want to learn how to be a firefighter and he goes through the appropriate training and demonstrates he is responsible and mature there is no reason to not let him on an apparatus to go and assist doing jobs on the fire ground that aren't in the hot zone. Saying that letting a 16 year old child onto a fire truck is insane, but letting an 18 year old man is not..is equivalent to saying..it is insane to let an 18 year old FRESH out of high school to go to war..but it is ok to let a 21 year old to go and fight and die. If letting a 16 year old on a fire truck keeps him away from drugs or trouble and gives him interest in a career field..then I'm all for it.

    good debate..

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In assume you are referring to the examples above.

    They did not know if the building was empty or not when they decided to make entry.
    So, had they pulled some one out, you wouldn't have used them as an example?
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