Closed Thread
Page 7 of 20 First ... 4567891017 ... Last
Like Tree123Likes

Thread: I'm getting a Pager?

  1. #151
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Could you post something that proves this point? Your opinion doesn't count. We all know it's bogus.
    I have.

    Discussing this any further with you is pointless.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  2. #152
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tajm611's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,071

    Default

    So to summarize, increases in fires are due to poor education and prevention but have nothing to do with education and prevention. Also, arson is not preventable so juvenile fire setting prevention is useless. Got it.

    Also, I see a lot of the word "we" in your response so that signifies to me that it has no basis in the real world. When you realize things are much different everywhere else, you'll realize how stupid your blanket statements are.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  3. #153
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    So to summarize, increases in fires are due to poor education and prevention but have nothing to do with education and prevention. Also, arson is not preventable so juvenile fire setting prevention is useless. Got it.

    Also, I see a lot of the word "we" in your response so that signifies to me that it has no basis in the real world. When you realize things are much different everywhere else, you'll realize how stupid your blanket statements are.
    So exactly how are they different?

    The personnel responsible for prevention and education look at the run data and determine what is causing the fires. The personnel responsible for prevention and education come up with a stragety including target audience, meesage and delivery to address the identified problems. They deliver the programs. they evalaute the results. If there is no change in data, they develop a alternative stragety and implement it.

    That is basic public education planning and management.

    Any community and any department - career, combo or volunteer - can do it as long as they are willing to dedicate staff, time and some money towards it. And make it committmentn that it IS as important as supression and that it will make a difference.

    If you don't have anyone in your department that wants to head it up contact the schools and see if there is somebody with an educational background to head it up. Advertise in the community for volunteers interested in delivering the message. If you in a college town, contact the college and see if they are interested in having the student teachers involved.

    The fact is the development and management of a public education p[rogram does requires specilaized training beyond FFI/FFII. It requires time and effort and a lot of departments, and a lot of firefighters, simply don't want to do that. A lot of departments do and it shows in their fire stats. And yes, an aggressive public education program can have a significant impact on fire activity in most communities.

    As far as juvenile firesetting, most juvenile firesetting is a behavior and can be stopped through education, consueling, and punishment such as restitution, community service and school suspensions. Less than 1% of all juvenile firesetters fall into the patholigical catagory that display and physical and/or pscyologocal need for fire.

    And most juvenile firesetting is not classified as arson.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-07-2012 at 07:23 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  4. #154
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,694

    Default

    this thread is like a bad accident to the public....just can't stop looking.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #155
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,327

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have.

    Discussing this any further with you is pointless.
    No you haven't. You've posted an opinion. That is not proof.

    I have no doubt you don't want to discuss this. It's embarassing to be shown that one's work is worthless.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  6. #156
    MembersZone Subscriber
    BULL321's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Western, NC
    Posts
    3,432

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No you haven't. You've posted an opinion. That is not proof.

    I have no doubt you don't want to discuss this. It's embarassing to be shown that one's work is worthless.
    He doesn't care if he is worthless, remember he could care less if he influences anyone.

    SO. . . . . .. .. .. . . . since he does not care if he influences anyone and he is a fire prevention/educator then he must only care about a paycheck and his own health and welfare.
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
    - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
    -WINSTON CHURCHILL

  7. #157
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tajm611's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,071

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So exactly how are they different?
    When things burn more than once year, and you're actually expected to, oh I don't know, put the fire out then things are much different. We have a very strong prevention and education division. The guys, myself included, genuinely enjoy that part of our job. Besides calls it is the only way we're allowed to interact with the public. When our chief decided that he'd rather send himself to FDIC and not purchase our surplus of smoke detectors, we took it upon ourselves to purchase them. We fully believe in education. That being said, we're not stupid, we know it's not a magic bullet. We know very well that the existence or eradication of the program will not make a dent in our run count. But we all agree that if it saves one life in 10 years, it's worth it. Early detection saves our lives by proxy.

    Our city is being hit hard with fires. It has nothing to do with our lack of being pro-active in prevention and education and everything to do with the socioeconomic climate we're working in. That is a prevalent factor in 99% of the departments with an increase in calls.

    I would really love for you to walk into a department or fire house and tell the men there that they're seeing more fire because they're not working hard enough to teach the public. Please, I'll give you my paycheck from both of my departments for you to spend one day in my district going door to door and attempting to teach prevention and fire safety. I'll be sure to call LE and have them shadow you for the inevitable slap you receive upside your head. Pass by my firehouse, explain to my men that with a severe shortage of manpower we need more people dedicated solely to prevention instead of the 21 line positions that need to be filled desperately. Then go to my neighboring department that is looking at brownouts and layoffs and tell the men there to reinstate the budget for P&E they had cut in half to save men on the line. You really need to get your head out of your ***, prevention is important but extinguishment is our duty. As much as I love going to fires, I don't want to see anyone lose their lives or property but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to priorities.
    slackjawedyokel and scfire86 like this.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  8. #158
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Look at it this way. If you start at 14 you can retire at 39..........Right?............J/K.

  9. #159
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    When things burn more than once year, and you're actually expected to, oh I don't know, put the fire out then things are much different. We have a very strong prevention and education division. The guys, myself included, genuinely enjoy that part of our job. Besides calls it is the only way we're allowed to interact with the public. When our chief decided that he'd rather send himself to FDIC and not purchase our surplus of smoke detectors, we took it upon ourselves to purchase them. We fully believe in education. That being said, we're not stupid, we know it's not a magic bullet. We know very well that the existence or eradication of the program will not make a dent in our run count. But we all agree that if it saves one life in 10 years, it's worth it. Early detection saves our lives by proxy.

    Good. And likely if you did not have a strong public education and prevention division and program you likely would be having even more fires. And that was my point.And your line personnel, unlike some department's line personnel, according to what you have said see the value in prevention and education and genuinely seem to support the effort. Again, very good.

    Our city is being hit hard with fires. It has nothing to do with our lack of being pro-active in prevention and education and everything to do with the socioeconomic climate we're working in. That is a prevalent factor in 99% of the departments with an increase in calls.

    Again if your department is aggressive regarding public education likely you are not seeing the increase you would be experiencing without that effort.

    I would really love for you to walk into a department or fire house and tell the men there that they're seeing more fire because they're not working hard enough to teach the public.

    According to you, they are. That being said there are many career members that do not give a damn about prevention and education, and make only token efforts or do only what they have to. And that applies to some folks who are assigned to prevention because they were dumped there are well as line personnel.

    Please, I'll give you my paycheck from both of my departments for you to spend one day in my district going door to door and attempting to teach prevention and fire safety. I'll be sure to call LE and have them shadow you for the inevitable slap you receive upside your head.

    In some areas, that's not practical or safe. But there are other ways to get the message out.


    Pass by my firehouse, explain to my men that with a severe shortage of manpower we need more people dedicated solely to prevention instead of the 21 line positions that need to be filled desperately.

    Have no idea of your staffing - suppression vs. dedicated prevention/inspection and education-assigned personnel. I will say that there have been plenty of posters here that have advocated cutting prevention ad education to the bone or eliminating it completely to replace line positions. Sorry, but that doesn't fly. Cutting prevention to staff suppression just creates more demand for repression, and does little to solve the line staffing issues, especially given the generally very limited number of prevention/education positions available to be cut.

    Then go to my neighboring department that is looking at brownouts and layoffs and tell the men there to reinstate the budget for P&E they had cut in half to save men on the line. You really need to get your head out of your ***, prevention is important but extinguishment is our duty.

    Prevention AND extinguishment are our duties and they are equally important so no, we don't rob staffing from prevention to augment line. Sorry, that we disagree on. Prevention needs to be staffed. I'm sorry if line is cut but cutting prevention just guarantees an increased workload, and as I said, the limited number of positions gained from prevention will be overwhelmed by that increased workload.

    The simple fact is that a professional fire department owes the public a professionally delivered inspection and education program in addition to suppression.


    As much as I love going to fires, I don't want to see anyone lose their lives or property but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to priorities.
    Preventing the fire will cut down on the workload, and without a staff capable of delivering programs in prevention, fires will not decrease and likely will increase. Yes, suppression needs to be staffed but NOT at the cost of gutting prevention.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #160
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    He doesn't care if he is worthless, remember he could care less if he influences anyone.

    SO. . . . . .. .. .. . . . since he does not care if he influences anyone and he is a fire prevention/educator then he must only care about a paycheck and his own health and welfare.
    Was referring to other fire service personnel and my department members.

    I really don't give a dam if I influence them, but it is one of my jobs to teach them.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #161
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,327

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Preventing the fire will cut down on the workload, and without a staff capable of delivering programs in prevention, fires will not decrease and likely will increase. Yes, suppression needs to be staffed but NOT at the cost of gutting prevention.
    Disagree. I can point to numerous instances where my suppression effort had results. You've yet to prove that Prevention has prevented one fire.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  12. #162
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,239

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Was referring to other fire service personnel and my department members.

    I really don't give a dam if I influence them, but it is one of my jobs to teach them.
    How do you teach without influencing people? I will state further that I don't believe that is even possible.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  13. #163
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,064

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Preventing the fire will cut down on the workload, and without a staff capable of delivering programs in prevention, fires will not decrease and likely will increase. Yes, suppression needs to be staffed but NOT at the cost of gutting prevention.
    Pure BS. We all know there are fires that can not and will not be prevented. However you would rather we staff a division that may or may not have an effect rather than staff the division that absolutely will have an effect WHEN (not if) the fires happen.

    As already mentioned, coloring books, training props and good intentions don't put out fires. Staffed, equipped and trained companies do.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  14. #164
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,065

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    How do you teach without influencing people? I will state further that I don't believe that is even possible.
    Saying you are teaching and actually teaching are two different things. A real teacher doesnt just give classes and presentations, he teaches by example, by SHARING his knowledge - some of the best teachers ,I have ever learned from would have whipped your @ss if you called him a teacher. But he was so full of knowledge (and not surface knowledge, but well rounded , Not just the whats , but the whys.) that you learned things without realizing it. Things that years later , helped you in a time of need. A real teacher is born --- not edumacated.
    ?

  15. #165
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tajm611's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,071

    Default

    So if you were sick and only had the money to choose between medicine that COULD prevent more illness or one that WOULD FIX your illness.... Ah nevermind, I forget how stupid you are.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  16. #166
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    So if you were sick and only had the money to choose between medicine that COULD prevent more illness or one that WOULD FIX your illness.... Ah nevermind, I forget how stupid you are.
    I would rather prevent the illness.

    And asked, i think most people would rather not have a fire than to have a staffed fire department show up and limit the damage, if possible. The fact is there is still damage.

    If we had delivered the message before the fire and the fire never occurred, that would obviously be the best outcome.

    Most rational people will listen to fire prevention messages if they are made relevant to their situation and delivered effectively. The fact that more than one poster has equated fire prevention to coloring books shows either 1) How limited their knowledge of what effective fire prevention is or 2) How limited their department's fire prevention and education program is.

    You have your idea of the effectiveness of prevention. I have mine, based on both the effectiveness of prevention in one of my current and past situations, as well as the results in several other departments. And if that's the way you feel, cool.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #167
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Pure BS. We all know there are fires that can not and will not be prevented. However you would rather we staff a division that may or may not have an effect rather than staff the division that absolutely will have an effect WHEN (not if) the fires happen.

    As already mentioned, coloring books, training props and good intentions don't put out fires. Staffed, equipped and trained companies do.
    There are very few causes of fires that cannot be prevented.

    Some messages are easier to design and deliver than others, but every message can be delivered and fires can be prevented either through education, engineering or enforcement.

    It's just a question of how much effort the department wants to put into preventing the fires.

    I don't think anyone is talking about gutting suppression to staff prevention, but there are those here that would like to gut prevention to staff prevention, even though in larger department it likely represents less than 1% of the force.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #168
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    How do you teach without influencing people? I will state further that I don't believe that is even possible.
    I don't go into class with the intention of influencing people. I go in there with the intention of delivering information and letting them make their own conclusions about what I have delivered.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  19. #169
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Disagree. I can point to numerous instances where my suppression effort had results. You've yet to prove that Prevention has prevented one fire.
    And again, I'll ask you ... How do you prove that prevention prevented a fire that never occurred.

    I can point out situations where a family has been alerted to a fire by a smoke detector that wasn't there before the fire occurred, and they installed a detector because of a prevention presentation. I can tell you about people that put out a small fire with an extinguisher that wasn't there before they bought one because of a presentation.

    But sorry, I can't tell you about a fire that never occurred because of prevention. I know they have .... but can't tell ya about one.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  20. #170
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,239

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I don't go into class with the intention of influencing people. I go in there with the intention of delivering information and letting them make their own conclusions about what I have delivered.
    That isn't teaching. It may be pontificating, but it sure isn't teaching. You may get away with that in a political science class but you sure as heck will not get away with that in a fire fighter class. There is no room for allowing to draw their own conclusions. You teach them a skill and that is that. You teach them fire science and that is that. There is no way to allow for drawing of their own conclusions.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  21. #171
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    That isn't teaching. It may be pontificating, but it sure isn't teaching. You may get away with that in a political science class but you sure as heck will not get away with that in a fire fighter class. There is no room for allowing to draw their own conclusions. You teach them a skill and that is that. You teach them fire science and that is that. There is no way to allow for drawing of their own conclusions.
    Teaching them a skill is not, by my definition, influencing them as in most cases you are telling them one way to perform that skill.

    To me influencing them is trying to change their behavior or thought pattern when tey already are performing a specific skill or tactical procedure - examples may be trying to get them to adopt a new technique such as using 2 1/2" lines for commercial fires instead of 1 3/4"'s, or trying to convince them to adopt 4" supply hose instead of 3".

    When I talk about drawing thier own conclusions I am saying that I may be giving them alternatives, but trying not to influence if they choose the alternative to what they are currently doing. That would not be applicable if I was instructing them on set/standard procedures or techniques.

    Teaching them skills is just that .. teaching them skills. I am referring to skills that they must learn to pass a course, such as FFI or our rookie check sheet. In those situations they do not have alternatives as they do not have an option as to how they can perform the skills - they must perform them in THIS way.

    Even when I am teaching my RIT classes, as an example, I offer alternatives but I am very careful not to endorse any of the alternatives as better than the others, or the current department SOP.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-10-2012 at 12:15 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  22. #172
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,064

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I don't go into class with the intention of influencing people. I go in there with the intention of delivering information and letting them make their own conclusions about what I have delivered.
    You are not a teacher. You are a slide reader.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  23. #173
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,327

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, I'll ask you ... How do you prove that prevention prevented a fire that never occurred.
    Not my problem. It's up to you to prove it. Should be easy given your claims on the effectiveness of your programs.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I can point out situations where a family has been alerted to a fire by a smoke detector that wasn't there before the fire occurred, and they installed a detector because of a prevention presentation. I can tell you about people that put out a small fire with an extinguisher that wasn't there before they bought one because of a presentation.
    Neither of which prevented a fire. They saved a life or helped put out a fire after it started.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But sorry, I can't tell you about a fire that never occurred because of prevention. I know they have .... but can't tell ya about one.
    Thanks. A simple "NO" would have been adequate.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  24. #174
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    You are not a teacher. You are a slide reader.
    Not at all.

    There is a difference between providing information and trying to affect an attitude or behavior, which is what "influencing" is.

    I provide much more information, as a rule, then is on the powerpoint, but it's not my intent when teaching a basic procedure or skills-oriented class to affect their attitudes about the topic. I am not there to lecture them as to why they should train more, or eat better. i am there in that situation to provide them with the technical information required for them to perform.

    As I said, even when teaching self-developed courses, especially if I am teaching to another department, such as Rapid Intervention or reading Smoke, I give them plenty of alternatives as to how to perform a task, but it's not my job to influence their choices as to which one is best. That is up to the officers of that department to influence them which way they would prefer to see it done. up to the department
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  25. #175
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Disagree. I can point to numerous instances where my suppression effort had results. You've yet to prove that Prevention has prevented one fire.
    And I am sure that I could point out many, many times where your suppression efforts, or any departments suppression efforts had no impact on the outcome. The occupants died. The home or building burned and it was bulldozed, or the business never reopened and never employed anyone again.

    This is a discussion that will never have a end. Consistently declining fires, especially if the decline is significantly more than neighboring, similiar departments, do show the effectiveness of public education and fire prevention. You disagree.

    I could ask the same of you. Show me where a 4-man company has saved more lives an property than 3-man companies. And I'm not talking about simulated fires that have demonstrated that they can perform more tasks or the same tasks quicker..... Where is some actual statistical data showing less fire loss and a greater number of life saves?

    FDNY has been reducing staffing yet fewer civilians died in a fire in NYC this year than in any other year. Why? If you want to connect staffing to effectiveness, please explain that piece of data.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-10-2012 at 09:58 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

Closed Thread
Page 7 of 20 First ... 4567891017 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Pager Help
    By Junior22 in forum Fire Explorer & Jr. Firefighting
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-04-2013, 07:54 PM
  2. i'm looking for a pager
    By HFDEXP777 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-08-2004, 09:16 PM
  3. I need I pager.
    By Explorer12 in forum Fire Explorer & Jr. Firefighting
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-01-2001, 10:17 AM
  4. Need a pager?
    By matthewmints in forum Fire Explorer & Jr. Firefighting
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-23-2001, 01:23 PM
  5. Need a pager??
    By matthewmints in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-21-2001, 01:45 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register