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  1. #141
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Son, don't get into a battle with this guy. It just ain't worth your time.
    Yeah. Because, you revealed yourself to be a joke.

    So show us a picture of a building that didn't burn because of your prevention and education effort. Shouldn't be too difficult to prove given your self proclaimed expert status.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."


  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Yeah. Because, you revealed yourself to be a joke.

    So show us a picture of a building that didn't burn because of your prevention and education effort. Shouldn't be too difficult to prove given your self proclaimed expert status.
    So you want me to show you a picture of building that didn't burn down because it didn't have a fire that was prevented by public education?

    As far as my expert status, I never claimed that, but my experience in public education and juvenile firesetting both in the field and as an instructor has been recognized.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So you want me to show you a picture of building that didn't burn down because it didn't have a fire that was prevented by public education?

    As far as my expert status, I never claimed that, but my experience in public education and juvenile firesetting both in the field and as an instructor has been recognized.
    Just being recognized is not always a good thing, I mean I could proably recognize mickey mouse from way across a room, doesnt mean I want him to "edumicate" me or my kids.
    ?

  4. #144
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as my expert status, I never claimed that, but my experience in public education and juvenile firesetting both in the field and as an instructor has been recognized.
    Recognized? Yea sure, just like when someone farts in the middle of a Sunday morning church sermon! "We like to recognized the loud smelly guy in the 5th row, 3rd from the left!"
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    He is his "mini-minion"
    So LA --- is it true that you are assembling an unholy army of mini "educators" ?
    I can picture it now - an army of 14 year olds-proudly wearing their minitor 5s, sporting stick on maltese cross tats, arms laden with bert and ernie coloring books, proudly marching through the parish, the sound of their marching wafting through the pines
    "I dont know, but ive been told" -You dont live long , when you are bold
    Folks may be trapped, but I dont care -I wont go in, cause it hot in there."
    FWDbuff, BULL321 and Chenzo like this.
    ?

  6. #146
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So you want me to show you a picture of building that didn't burn down because it didn't have a fire that was prevented by public education?
    Yes. You're making the claim that fire loss has decreased since you started your education program.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as my expert status, I never claimed that, but my experience in public education and juvenile firesetting both in the field and as an instructor has been recognized.
    By who and for what?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  7. #147
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    So LA --- is it true that you are assembling an unholy army of mini "educators" ?
    I can picture it now - an army of 14 year olds-proudly wearing their minitor 5s, sporting stick on maltese cross tats, arms laden with bert and ernie coloring books, proudly marching through the parish, the sound of their marching wafting through the pines
    "I dont know, but ive been told" -You dont live long , when you are bold
    Folks may be trapped, but I dont care -I wont go in, cause it hot in there."
    Just wiped the coffee off my screen. Well done.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  8. #148
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    You seem to have conveniently "missed" this so I'll post it again. I eagerly await your response, I need a good laugh.



    Your own words, unchanged saved for only posting the relevant portion.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...having a lot of responses and working fires generally indicates they are not taking that primary role seriously enough or not doing a very good job in terms of prevention and education...
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...yes, in some cases increases in fires have nothing to do with a departments prevention and education program. And yes arson is one of those reasons.

    Never did I say that an increase in fire activity was due to a lack of a public education program, however, if a department that has no significant program in place, in most cases, would see much less of an increase as many times, there is a preventable element in any increase, even if just a part, in an increase in fire activity.
    Just to summarize:

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...having a lot of (...) fires (...) indicates they are not (...) doing a very good job in terms of prevention and education...
    vs.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never did I say that an increase in fire activity was due to a lack of a public education program
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  9. #149
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    Tajm ...

    Given that most structure fires are preventable with behavior modification - education - unless you have a severe arson problem, like say, Detroit, I will stand by my statement that if a department is experienceing a lot of fire activity it's likely that they are not doing very much prevention or the prevention is ineffective, for a variety of reasons.

    If the increase is due to arson, that is not preventable. If the increase is due to causes related to inproper behaviors, they are preventable and the trend can be reversed through increased education and prevention activities.

    In 2010, we saw a significant increase in brush incidents, including 5 structure fires caused by brush fires, due to the drought. Even though conditions in 2011 were worse, we responded to less than 50% of the brush fires we had in 2010, with no structure fires resulting. Why? because we significantly ramped up our prevention messages targeted at brush fires combined with an increased awareness of the situation within the community. We still saw more brush activity than usual but it was far less than every nieigboring department.

    We now have far fewer kitchen fires, heating fires and brush fires because those were the areas that we harped on and the result is a significant drop in those fires, as well as fires overall.

    Bottom line is if you look at departments - volunteer and career - with aggressive, staffed and professionally run either by certified educators or trained fire department personnel, you will find departments that run fewer fires than departments without such a program.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-07-2012 at 01:20 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #150
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Bottom line is if you look at departments - volunteer and career - with aggressive, staffed and professionally run either by certified educators or trained fire department personnel, you will find departments that run fewer fires than departments without such a program.
    Could you post something that proves this point? Your opinion doesn't count. We all know it's bogus.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Could you post something that proves this point? Your opinion doesn't count. We all know it's bogus.
    I have.

    Discussing this any further with you is pointless.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #152
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    So to summarize, increases in fires are due to poor education and prevention but have nothing to do with education and prevention. Also, arson is not preventable so juvenile fire setting prevention is useless. Got it.

    Also, I see a lot of the word "we" in your response so that signifies to me that it has no basis in the real world. When you realize things are much different everywhere else, you'll realize how stupid your blanket statements are.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    So to summarize, increases in fires are due to poor education and prevention but have nothing to do with education and prevention. Also, arson is not preventable so juvenile fire setting prevention is useless. Got it.

    Also, I see a lot of the word "we" in your response so that signifies to me that it has no basis in the real world. When you realize things are much different everywhere else, you'll realize how stupid your blanket statements are.
    So exactly how are they different?

    The personnel responsible for prevention and education look at the run data and determine what is causing the fires. The personnel responsible for prevention and education come up with a stragety including target audience, meesage and delivery to address the identified problems. They deliver the programs. they evalaute the results. If there is no change in data, they develop a alternative stragety and implement it.

    That is basic public education planning and management.

    Any community and any department - career, combo or volunteer - can do it as long as they are willing to dedicate staff, time and some money towards it. And make it committmentn that it IS as important as supression and that it will make a difference.

    If you don't have anyone in your department that wants to head it up contact the schools and see if there is somebody with an educational background to head it up. Advertise in the community for volunteers interested in delivering the message. If you in a college town, contact the college and see if they are interested in having the student teachers involved.

    The fact is the development and management of a public education p[rogram does requires specilaized training beyond FFI/FFII. It requires time and effort and a lot of departments, and a lot of firefighters, simply don't want to do that. A lot of departments do and it shows in their fire stats. And yes, an aggressive public education program can have a significant impact on fire activity in most communities.

    As far as juvenile firesetting, most juvenile firesetting is a behavior and can be stopped through education, consueling, and punishment such as restitution, community service and school suspensions. Less than 1% of all juvenile firesetters fall into the patholigical catagory that display and physical and/or pscyologocal need for fire.

    And most juvenile firesetting is not classified as arson.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-07-2012 at 06:23 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #154
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    this thread is like a bad accident to the public....just can't stop looking.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  15. #155
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have.

    Discussing this any further with you is pointless.
    No you haven't. You've posted an opinion. That is not proof.

    I have no doubt you don't want to discuss this. It's embarassing to be shown that one's work is worthless.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  16. #156
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No you haven't. You've posted an opinion. That is not proof.

    I have no doubt you don't want to discuss this. It's embarassing to be shown that one's work is worthless.
    He doesn't care if he is worthless, remember he could care less if he influences anyone.

    SO. . . . . .. .. .. . . . since he does not care if he influences anyone and he is a fire prevention/educator then he must only care about a paycheck and his own health and welfare.
    Stay Safe
    Bull


    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
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    Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
    -WINSTON CHURCHILL

  17. #157
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So exactly how are they different?
    When things burn more than once year, and you're actually expected to, oh I don't know, put the fire out then things are much different. We have a very strong prevention and education division. The guys, myself included, genuinely enjoy that part of our job. Besides calls it is the only way we're allowed to interact with the public. When our chief decided that he'd rather send himself to FDIC and not purchase our surplus of smoke detectors, we took it upon ourselves to purchase them. We fully believe in education. That being said, we're not stupid, we know it's not a magic bullet. We know very well that the existence or eradication of the program will not make a dent in our run count. But we all agree that if it saves one life in 10 years, it's worth it. Early detection saves our lives by proxy.

    Our city is being hit hard with fires. It has nothing to do with our lack of being pro-active in prevention and education and everything to do with the socioeconomic climate we're working in. That is a prevalent factor in 99% of the departments with an increase in calls.

    I would really love for you to walk into a department or fire house and tell the men there that they're seeing more fire because they're not working hard enough to teach the public. Please, I'll give you my paycheck from both of my departments for you to spend one day in my district going door to door and attempting to teach prevention and fire safety. I'll be sure to call LE and have them shadow you for the inevitable slap you receive upside your head. Pass by my firehouse, explain to my men that with a severe shortage of manpower we need more people dedicated solely to prevention instead of the 21 line positions that need to be filled desperately. Then go to my neighboring department that is looking at brownouts and layoffs and tell the men there to reinstate the budget for P&E they had cut in half to save men on the line. You really need to get your head out of your ***, prevention is important but extinguishment is our duty. As much as I love going to fires, I don't want to see anyone lose their lives or property but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to priorities.
    slackjawedyokel and scfire86 like this.
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  18. #158
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Look at it this way. If you start at 14 you can retire at 39..........Right?............ J/K.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    When things burn more than once year, and you're actually expected to, oh I don't know, put the fire out then things are much different. We have a very strong prevention and education division. The guys, myself included, genuinely enjoy that part of our job. Besides calls it is the only way we're allowed to interact with the public. When our chief decided that he'd rather send himself to FDIC and not purchase our surplus of smoke detectors, we took it upon ourselves to purchase them. We fully believe in education. That being said, we're not stupid, we know it's not a magic bullet. We know very well that the existence or eradication of the program will not make a dent in our run count. But we all agree that if it saves one life in 10 years, it's worth it. Early detection saves our lives by proxy.

    Good. And likely if you did not have a strong public education and prevention division and program you likely would be having even more fires. And that was my point.And your line personnel, unlike some department's line personnel, according to what you have said see the value in prevention and education and genuinely seem to support the effort. Again, very good.

    Our city is being hit hard with fires. It has nothing to do with our lack of being pro-active in prevention and education and everything to do with the socioeconomic climate we're working in. That is a prevalent factor in 99% of the departments with an increase in calls.

    Again if your department is aggressive regarding public education likely you are not seeing the increase you would be experiencing without that effort.

    I would really love for you to walk into a department or fire house and tell the men there that they're seeing more fire because they're not working hard enough to teach the public.

    According to you, they are. That being said there are many career members that do not give a damn about prevention and education, and make only token efforts or do only what they have to. And that applies to some folks who are assigned to prevention because they were dumped there are well as line personnel.

    Please, I'll give you my paycheck from both of my departments for you to spend one day in my district going door to door and attempting to teach prevention and fire safety. I'll be sure to call LE and have them shadow you for the inevitable slap you receive upside your head.

    In some areas, that's not practical or safe. But there are other ways to get the message out.


    Pass by my firehouse, explain to my men that with a severe shortage of manpower we need more people dedicated solely to prevention instead of the 21 line positions that need to be filled desperately.

    Have no idea of your staffing - suppression vs. dedicated prevention/inspection and education-assigned personnel. I will say that there have been plenty of posters here that have advocated cutting prevention ad education to the bone or eliminating it completely to replace line positions. Sorry, but that doesn't fly. Cutting prevention to staff suppression just creates more demand for repression, and does little to solve the line staffing issues, especially given the generally very limited number of prevention/education positions available to be cut.

    Then go to my neighboring department that is looking at brownouts and layoffs and tell the men there to reinstate the budget for P&E they had cut in half to save men on the line. You really need to get your head out of your ***, prevention is important but extinguishment is our duty.

    Prevention AND extinguishment are our duties and they are equally important so no, we don't rob staffing from prevention to augment line. Sorry, that we disagree on. Prevention needs to be staffed. I'm sorry if line is cut but cutting prevention just guarantees an increased workload, and as I said, the limited number of positions gained from prevention will be overwhelmed by that increased workload.

    The simple fact is that a professional fire department owes the public a professionally delivered inspection and education program in addition to suppression.


    As much as I love going to fires, I don't want to see anyone lose their lives or property but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to priorities.
    Preventing the fire will cut down on the workload, and without a staff capable of delivering programs in prevention, fires will not decrease and likely will increase. Yes, suppression needs to be staffed but NOT at the cost of gutting prevention.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    He doesn't care if he is worthless, remember he could care less if he influences anyone.

    SO. . . . . .. .. .. . . . since he does not care if he influences anyone and he is a fire prevention/educator then he must only care about a paycheck and his own health and welfare.
    Was referring to other fire service personnel and my department members.

    I really don't give a dam if I influence them, but it is one of my jobs to teach them.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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