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Thread: Wish List?

  1. #1
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    Default Wish List?

    We are going to apply for the AFG grant this year again. I was wondering if this sounds like a wish list. Ventilation saw, thermal imaging camera, high angle rescue items, scba bottles, and maybe some ppe. Our district is getting 15 wind turbines installed as we speak, so I think the high angle rescue items are a must. Our ppe was new in 2003. What are your thoughts?

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    Sounds like a Wallyworld trip. Usually the hint that it's shopping is when you're entered stuff in more than one Equipment Category of the 5 options:

    Equipment
    Training
    Health/Wellness
    PPE
    Building Modification

    Sole exception being TICs or pagers with PPE or SCBA. Any other crossing of lines isn't the makings of a competitive request.

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    We are applying to replace hose that is more than 15 years old. We are also gonna try for a 3,000 gallon tanker again this year. I think we have a good chance for the hose, the only thing im worried about is the tanker we are borderline on the fleet age 2003,2004,2000,1981 and 1978 trying to replace the 1978

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    I am thinking requesting replacement for our 10 NFPA-1981 Standard, 1992 Edition SCBA's
    8 - 10 Sets of PPE which was purchased in the late 80's early 90's
    and a RIT Pack which we do not have.

    Also, since all the hydrants in the city are multiple thread types,
    Hydrant Adapters so they will all be standard 2.5 / 5" Storz

    Would this be too much of a grocery list?

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    Chappell, could be a list just with PPE and SCBA. Don't really have enough info to give accurate advice, but since NFPA requires a minimum of 12 SCBA to comply with NFPA 1500 and NFPA 1720, plus OSHA 2in/2out you might be shooting yourself in the foot if you don't have other SCBA in the house.

    All projects go by current compliance level, so if you only have 10 people and need 10 sets, that's a good request on PPE. If you have 50 people and only 10 sets need replacement, you're 80% compliant which means you're doing pretty good on your own.

    Hydrant adapters are eligible for regional water supply so wouldn't stick them in with the PPE and SCBA since they're Equipment and the others are PPE so it's crossing my lines mentioned above. But if you can find others in the same boat in the area, it's been done before.

    barton, overall fleet age isn't the first thing checked, it's vehicles in the same category first then fleet. Again not enough info since you don't have types down, but if they're all pumpers then here's how that's seen: the 1981 replaced the 78. 2000 replaced the 81, 2003 replaced the 2000, 2004 replaced the 2003. It's done by age of frontline in the same category. Now if all 3 2000s are pumpers and the 78 is the tanker, why wasn't one of the 2000s a tanker instead of a pumper? Also how that's seen from the outside. Like any other projects how you've spent the money you did get is always analyzed. Same reason that anyone trying to replace a 12 year old ambulance yet has 4 fire trucks newer than that is going to have problems. After all, EMS is 80% of the runs, costs 25% as much as a fire truck, why did you buy something that runs 20% of the calls and 400% more? EMS runs with fire apparatus isn't what it was designed for so even if you put a pumper on EMS first-response it doesn't count as needed because it's a people mover on those runs, not a fire truck. FDs don't need new pumpers to make EMS runs because no water is moving on those calls, hence the reason the purchase of more expensive vehicles for the small end of the business doesn't make sense from the outside. Not being able to buy new fire trucks because you're running the wheels off of the ambulances and replacing those makes sense.

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    BC79er:

    I apologize now for jumping into this particular thread, but appears you have some knowledge and was kind enough to respond to the other individual.

    My question is:

    We are applying for AFG grant for a new Engine/Rescue 1st due out. Now with that in mind, and my understanding that you can apply for a vehicle grant and equipment grant; would it be appropriate to request specific equipment to be used on the new engine/rescue assuming we got the grant for the unit? Equipment specific would be like a light tower and new cascade bottles for the unit. Or, are we shooting are self in the foot?

    Another question, and this is from: http://www.fema.gov/firegrants/afggrants/FAQs2012.shtm

    "Can a grantee utilize sole-source procurement from a vendor if the vendor’s equipment is compatible with the equipment that the grantee already owns?

    Sole source procurement may be used in certain circumstances. The grantee must seek review and written approval from an AFG/FEMA program office representative through the online amendment process prior to engaging in any sole-source procurement."

    This appears to mean we can use our cascade tanks and light tower from the existing unit, but we need to request an amendment. Which means more trouble in the grant process, I would think but honestly have no clue! Your thoughts?

    Also, anyone else that knows, please respond?

    Thank you
    Marc Jackson
    Sipesville VFD
    Somerset, PA

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    Marc, vehicle grants and equipment grants are reviewed by different AFG panelists, so one group will not know of the existence of the other grant request. If you use the philosopy that you are speaking of, you will be making the two grants interdependent upon each other. In other words if one grant does not get approved, the other becomes worthless.I do not think you want to find yourself in that position.

    Vehicle grants state that the truck should be NFPA 1901 compliant, to include loose equipment, and allowances are made for that equipment to be on that truck . What you should be concerning yourself with is making sure that the truck's cost is economically feasible enough to make it past the computer scoring it will face.

    That is where your call volume and population will come into play in figuring the cost per person and frequency of use formulas. If you cannot get it past the computer, then a human being never reads a word you write.

    There is so little money in the program this year, just as in last year, that vehicle awards will be limited to only a little over 300 awards, so the thing to be concerned with here is getting 10 wheels, a chassis, pump and drivetrain parked in your apparatus bay first, and then worry about adding light towers and extraneous equipment later.

    Also a word to the wise here, "rescue" vehicles are not a priority for rural departments so if you are in that catagorey I would lose all reference to "a rescue engine" and simply request an engine.
    Last edited by ktb9780; 06-13-2012 at 09:17 AM.
    Kurt Bradley
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    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Anything that goes on an existing truck vehicle is generally an Ops app. Adding a cascade and light tower or foam systems have been Ops, anything more involved like pump/tank refurbs are Truck grants. Here you wouldn't want to apply to an Ops grant to move existing equipment to a truck you don't have, it doesn't make sense. Now arguing that you'll keep the costs down on the new truck by reusing stuff from the old one is a cost-saving measure.

    Sole-source doesn't even come into play on that from what you listed off since the light towers and cascades aren't truck vendor specific.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcMJackson View Post
    Marc Jackson
    Sipesville VFD
    Somerset, PA
    Judging by your current fleet, don't put too much time and effort into an application. Always worth giving it a shot, but it's a long shot at best.

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    [QUOTE=BC79er;1330901]
    barton, overall fleet age isn't the first thing checked, it's vehicles in the same category first then fleet. Again not enough info since you don't have types down, but if they're all pumpers then here's how that's seen: the 1981 replaced the 78. 2000 replaced the 81, 2003 replaced the 2000, 2004 replaced the 2003. It's done by age of frontline in the same category. Now if all 3 2000s are pumpers and the 78 is the tanker, why wasn't one of the 2000s a tanker instead of a pumper? Also how that's seen from the outside. Like any other projects how you've spent the money you did get is always analyzed. Same reason that anyone trying to replace a 12 year old ambulance yet has 4 fire trucks newer than that is going to have problems. After all, EMS is 80% of the runs, costs 25% as much as a fire truck, why did you buy something that runs 20% of the calls and 400% more? EMS runs with fire apparatus isn't what it was designed for so even if you put a pumper on EMS first-response it doesn't count as needed because it's a people mover on those runs, not a fire truck. FDs don't need new pumpers to make EMS runs because no water is moving on those calls, hence the reason the purchase of more expensive vehicles for the small end of the business doesn't make sense from the outside. Not being able to buy new fire trucks because you're running the wheels off of the ambulances and replacing those makes sense.[/QUOTE

    yea i should have been a little more detailed its a 2003 light rescue (no tank or pump) 2004 brushtruck, 2000 engine (1,000 gal. tank, 1250 gpm) 1981 pumper(750 gal. tank,1500 gpm) and 1978 tanker (3,000 gall. tank) We purchased the 1981 a couple of years ago to help keep a pumper in our area since we run so much mutual aide. The big question that was asked of us at the grant workshop was why did we not try to replace the dangerous tanker in 2004 when we bought the other trucks. He didnt seem to understand the fact that the truck was not dangerous 7 whole years ago. At the time our area had a bigger need for the rescue and brushtruck.

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    It's only going to really compare the tanker age first, then look at pumpers, the brush really won't come into play and neither will the rescue. Smaller fleet doesn't count so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktb9780 View Post
    Marc, vehicle grants and equipment grants are reviewed by different AFG panelists, so one group will not know of the existence of the other grant request. If you use the philosopy that you are speaking of, you will be making the two grants interdependent upon each other. In other words if one grant does not get approved, the other becomes worthless.I do not think you want to find yourself in that position.

    Vehicle grants state that the truck should be NFPA 1901 compliant, to include loose equipment, and allowances are made for that equipment to be on that truck . What you should be concerning yourself with is making sure that the truck's cost is economically feasible enough to make it past the computer scoring it will face.

    That is where your call volume and population will come into play in figuring the cost per person and frequency of use formulas. If you cannot get it past the computer, then a human being never reads a word you write.

    There is so little money in the program this year, just as in last year, that vehicle awards will be limited to only a little over 300 awards, so the thing to be concerned with here is getting 10 wheels, a chassis, pump and drivetrain parked in your apparatus bay first, and then worry about adding light towers and extraneous equipment later.

    Also a word to the wise here, "rescue" vehicles are not a priority for rural departments so if you are in that catagorey I would lose all reference to "a rescue engine" and simply request an engine.
    My department has applied for a Engine grant the last several years. We cannot get through the computer scoring. Our newest pumper is a 1977 and oldest is a 1976. Our average age of fleet is 30 years. Both are canapy cabs. Our population is 3500 and district size is 15 sq mile. Average runs are around 60 fire runs and 70 medical runs per year. We ask for $250,000 for a new engine and 14,100 for NFPA reguired eqt and a drivers training program.

    Also we have 31 members and are asking for 15 sets of PPE. We currently have 18 members using gear bought from a AFG 2005 grant, 6 members with old (pre 1992) gear, 2 with gear borrowed from another dept, and 5 with no gear at all.
    In the same ops grant I have also asked to replace 30 year old 5" rubber LDH. It has non locking stortz and we have had sections burst while at recent fires. Also asked for a TIC to replace a 1999 one that is broken and not cost effective to repair.
    According to what you stated earlier does it appear as though Im shopping?

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    Technically yes. After all depending on the applicant, asking for PPE and SCBA in 1 app is a shopping list meaning they aren't competitive enough to have the stats and argument that both are needed while not being able to afford any part of either request. At $5500 a pack, asking for 20, a 5% match says you have $5500 in cash. That's almost 3 sets of gear, so if both are in the same app, shows you can afford part of your request on your own. That's extrapolated to mean you could free up $5500 a year for matching every year, which is 3 sets of gear every year, could be a replacement program going on without federal assistance from the outside.

    Obviously buying 1 SCBA a year gets you nowhere. And yes there are always more conditions that come into play, such as overall number of FFs, etc, but general rule is if you find yourself having the fleeting thought about whether or not you could throw something in, and "yeah I can get away with adding that" floats across your mind, probably means you're starting a list. Only times I'll mix stuff is TIC with just about anything, pagers with PPE or SCBA. Sometimes portable radios, but rarely. Otherwise, single items win the race.

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    OK, last question, what is a reasonable amount to ask for in the grant for a new pumper? I'm thinking, $350,000 - yes/no?

    Also, thank you for all your input, will take the information to the truck committee.

    Thanks
    Marc Jackson
    Sipesville VFD
    Somerset, PA
    Last edited by MarcMJackson; 06-14-2012 at 01:29 AM.

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    I'm planning to request new 5" hose to replace our current 20yr. old 3", and fittings and appliances to match the 5". Also requesting new 1.75" to replace 30yr. old 1.5" and new 2.5" to replace 30yr. old stuff, new 1.75" nozzles, monitors, and a 5" powered hose roller. I was also planning to ask for a laptop, projector, and some other training materials. I'm guessing this sounds like too much of a list. Should I just eliminate the training stuff?

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    Depends, training is supposed to be scoring neutral this year when it's related to the items requested. But at the same time self-taught is the lowest priority. Better to run laptops and projectors off of excess funds. After all in the real world shouldn't be spending more than $400 on a laptop or $600 on a projector anyway. Being the computer nerd I am there's no difference if you're not editing videos or playing 3D games. The average computer in front of the average user still spends 98% of the time it's turned on waiting for the user to do something. Including mine. Plus odds are you can probably within the next 9 months have some retail outlet cut you a deal on a display or returned one. Make the request in uniform and in person and ask if they can run one for store cost. Sometimes had them given for nothing, most times store cost.

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    Yea it does not sound to me like your training curriculm is well planned out at this phase like it would need to be to get funded.
    Kurt Bradley
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    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Kurt and BC79er, do you think it is ok to ask for the supply and attack stuff together?

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    Do it all the time, all water supply related so not really a list in my book. Another way to think of it is if one thing won't work without the other, then they need to go together. So nozzles & hose, applicances etc. Don't want to get the funding for some and still need stuff to make everything functional. Complete solutions are what get funded, sometimes people ask for too little and that's what drops their score. Like not asking for RIT SCBA with SCBA if you don't have one. Need both to have a complete solution.
    blaster668 likes this.

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    I woudl algree with bc79er, nothing to worry about and it offers a complete solution. What good are hoses if you can't hook them up or be interoperable with neighhbors?
    Kurt Bradley
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    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    I am writing the narratives for this application and turning them over to the treasurer. I have never actually seen the format that they enter them in. Should I do water supply and fire attack as separate projects, or should these be just formed into one "hose replacement" project? I understand that there are character limits also, do these apply to separate fields or is it for the entire project.

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