Cities that don't need paid personnel but have them..

[LVFD301]

They refuse to call volunteers from surrounding areas, and tend to use the brown outs and closures to make up for their short comings on the fire ground.
?

Ah yes, despite your pleas of non shat stirring, here it is in a nutshell. Do you need a bigger spoon to stir the shat with?

A community will get just the amount of fire protection they are willing to pay for.

It is not a question of volunteer garbage men. No one would volunteer to do an unexciting or unrewarding job such as that, so it is never going to happen. Many cities do have volunteer cops (aka reservists, etc). Our Sheriffs office has an auxiliary, which is nothing more than part timers who get put into positions befitting their experience, such as guard duties at the hospital, etc, and some are used on patrol.

If the city does not call you for fires, then man up, pull up your panties and go get hired. No amount of foot pounding here on Firehouse will change that.

[VinnieB]

Soooo.... You are getting at....what again?

[LVFD301]

Soooo.... You are getting at....what again?

I like pink poseys.

[tree68]

If you get paid, you are not a volunteer.

Strictly speaking, you're right. My compensation consists of exactly that - workman's comp. By your description, I'm not a volunteer.

But I think of a nearby city with a career-staffed FD (15 FF's on shift). A first alarm for a structure fire dumps all the houses.

A second alarm involves a pager-based recall of one or more off-duty shifts - just like a volunteer fire department (and it's a crapshoot regarding exactly how many people they'll actually get).

If things really get out of hand, they'll call in the surrounding volunteers (including one which their current chief is a past chief of).

To me, the differentiation is not whether a firefighter is paid or not - it's whether their primary vocation is as a firefighter for the department involved or is some other field (gotta factor in the career firefighters who do volunteer). So, unless you write down "firefighter" under occupation on your tax returns, you're a volunteer (previous exception notwithstanding).

As for the original question - I don't believe there is a set answer. Ideally, maintaining full staff is the answer. But there are options, if the city isn't an "island." F'rinstance, as I hear it, Pontiac, MI is planning to (or has) shut down their fire department, instead contracting with neighboring Waterford for fire coverage. They've taken similar action with their police department, contracting with the county sheriff.

I think it was West Milwaukee that closed down their tiny fire department and let Milwaukee take over.

Some cities don't have that option, as there are no neighbors that can help as such. Then, as already suggested, it comes down to how to best meet their service requirements/workload, and what the populace demands/is willing to accept.

[CHATTAFD12]

If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. 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If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. 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If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer.

You may be a poorly paid firefighter, you may be a paid on call firefighter, you may have heros who are volunteers and you just can't give up the label, but the fact remains,

If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer.

Maybe the gentleman will now understand the difference between paid and volunteer.

[scfire86]

Maybe the gentleman will now understand the difference between paid and volunteer.

Given his previous writings, what leads you to believe that will occur?

[CHATTAFD12]

Strictly speaking, you're right. My compensation consists of exactly that - workman's comp. By your description, I'm not a volunteer.

But I think of a nearby city with a career-staffed FD (15 FF's on shift). A first alarm for a structure fire dumps all the houses.

A second alarm involves a pager-based recall of one or more off-duty shifts - just like a volunteer fire department (and it's a crapshoot regarding exactly how many people they'll actually get).

If things really get out of hand, they'll call in the surrounding volunteers (including one which their current chief is a past chief of).

To me, the differentiation is not whether a firefighter is paid or not - it's whether their primary vocation is as a firefighter for the department involved or is some other field (gotta factor in the career firefighters who do volunteer). So, unless you write down "firefighter" under occupation on your tax returns, you're a volunteer (previous exception notwithstanding).

As for the original question - I don't believe there is a set answer. Ideally, maintaining full staff is the answer. But there are options, if the city isn't an "island." F'rinstance, as I hear it, Pontiac, MI is planning to (or has) shut down their fire department, instead contracting with neighboring Waterford for fire coverage. They've taken similar action with their police department, contracting with the county sheriff.

I think it was West Milwaukee that closed down their tiny fire department and let Milwaukee take over.

Some cities don't have that option, as there are no neighbors that can help as such. Then, as already suggested, it comes down to how to best meet their service requirements/workload, and what the populace demands/is willing to accept.

Very well put. Everyone whines about the easy life firefighters have until they need them. Then you hear these same people talking to the news reporters about how wonderful firefighters are and how they support them in every way. Their support lasts until they have to pay their tax bill for there wonderful firefighters. It's amazing how soon some forget. Al

[CHATTAFD12]

Ouch that one had to hurt LVFD. Al

[LaFireEducator]

If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. 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If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer.

You may be a poorly paid firefighter, you may be a paid on call firefighter, you may have heros who are volunteers and you just can't give up the label, but the fact remains,

If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer. If you get paid, you are not a volunteer.

Ya, I just quoted that.

The fact is we do respond. if we choose, as volunteers when off-duty and recieve volunteer points as such.

There is no requirement to respond off-duty, but all of the members of the paid staff do generally respond to EMS calls in their immediatte areas or major incidents such as structures fires and significant MVAs or wildfires, when off-duty, if avialable as volunteers.

It has always been that way here and hopefully always will.

All career personnel have a job title/rank on the career side as well as a rank on the volunteer side. As an example, on the career side my rank is Public Education Coordinator. On the volunteer side, my rank is Senior Firefighter. Shift Captains on the career side are simply Captains on the volunteer side and are assigned to a station as secondary responsibiliy.

[CHATTAFD12]

I fixed your post for you. No need to thank me.

Most firefighters I know work 24 on and 48 off. Not exactly great hours for family life. Yet I hear the same thing from VFD everywhere I have been. We need the support of Career
Firefighters. Is a Career Firefighter not entitled to a life and downtime?

Please don't get me wrong. Many VFD's man up and are very professional. The problem between VFD's and Career Departments is, when VFD's receive a page, they have a choice to
respond or not respond. Night or Day when a Career Department company gets a bell,
all hands are going to respond. Al

[CHATTAFD12]

I do live in the dsitrict I work in. And I make runs with them as a volunteer when off-duty, as well as volunteering in aneighboring district.

It's just my opinion.

That was very well written LAFIREEDUCATOR. It seems to me far too many citizens want you to work your shift, teach CPR and fire prevention in school classrooms, then hurry on over to the neighboring town with a VFD.

[scfire86]

The problem between VFD's and Career Departments is, when VFD's receive a page, they have a choice to
respond or not respond. Night or Day when a Career Department company gets a bell,
all hands are going to respond. Al

The vollies in my old department were all about the glory of being a firefighter but wanted none of the responsibility. They had a purpose. That being good for parades and PR events where they could hand out sticker badges to kids. Their response rates were absolutely abysmal (less than 20%) and even worse during the weekdays. Yet whenever any discussion of accountability arose they immediately wrapped themselves in the flag and proceeded to bash the career firefighters as mercenaries.

Fortunately for the well being of the public and taxpayer, that program has been significantly curtailed.

[LaFireEducator]

The vollies in my old department were all about the glory of being a firefighter but wanted none of the responsibility. They had a purpose. That being good for parades and PR events where they could hand out sticker badges to kids. Their response rates were absolutely abysmal (less than 20%) and even worse during the weekdays. Yet whenever any discussion of accountability arose they immediately wrapped themselves in the flag and proceeded to bash the career firefighters as mercenaries.

















Fortunately for the well being of the public and taxpayer, that program has been significantly curtailed.

And just out of curiousity, what would you consider an acceptable response rate for volunteers?

Given that career members, working shifts, in theory respond to 33% of a department's runs before accounting for vacations, sick time and other time off, which likely drops that percentage down to below 30%, what is acceptable for a volunteer?

I would consider a response rate of about 20% for a volunteer to be acceptable.

As far as the program, it sounds like it was poorly managed with no or little accountability demanded by the department administration. It sounds like it could have been better run, which may have made the program far more productive.

[CHATTAFD12]

Maybe the LA would like a little family life and some downtime.

As far the bunch of backwoods rednecks, VFD's have done there far sure to earn the reputation as backwoods rednecks. I know of two VFD's near me here in Virginia, that the firehouse is the happening place. Everywhere Saturday morning most of the members show up. Soon the BUDWEISER is flowing
freely. The drinking coupled with terrible fire or accident performance has earned the legacy you mentioned. Again, I say all VFD's aren't as the ones mentioned above, but the tag the few have earned is now worn by the good VFD's. Al

[CHATTAFD12]

And just out of curiousity, what would you consider an acceptable response rate for volunteers?

Given that career members, working shifts, in theory respond to 33% of a department's runs before accounting for vacations, sick time and other time off, which likely drops that percentage down to below 30%, what is accepatable for a volunteer.

I would consider a response rate of about 20% for a volunteer to be acceptable.

As far as the program, it sounds like it was poorly managed with no or little accountability demanded by the department administration.

The response rate of volunteers is dismal and I think understandably. When the pager goes off at
2 AM and you have to work at your real job the next day, for many the decision isn't hard. Yet what I consider most alarming is the 15-20 minutes which passes from the initial PAGE until the first units are rolling or on scene. I don't think its rocket science to know if a fire has 15 minutes to grow, the potential for loss of life, damage and spread increases dramatically. One has to look no further than insurance rates paid by communities with VFD's versus a Class 1 Career Fire Department. Al

[scfire86]

And just out of curiousity, what would you consider an acceptable response rate for volunteers?

100%. The same as career personnel.

Given that career members, working shifts, in theory respond to 33% of a department's runs before accounting for vacations, sick time and other time off, which likely drops that percentage down to below 30%, what is acceptable for a volunteer?

Actually, career personnel respond to 100% of the times they are called. Your rationalization is further proof of your nonsensical logic we've come to expect from you.

I would consider a response rate of about 20% for a volunteer to be acceptable.

Let's hope you're not one of the 80% victims whose waiting for help that isn't coming.

As far as the program, it sounds like it was poorly managed with no or little accountability demanded by the department administration. It sounds like it could have been better run, which may have made the program far more productive.

Not really. The administration did a pretty good job of trying to accommodate the vollies. After the changes that were enacted at the vollies suggestions, response rates decreased. Wasting even more tax dollars in the process. The night the decision was made there was the usual cast of folks talking about Americana, apple pie, and making a feeble attempt at comparing themselves to the Minutemen at Concord. One of my union directors said that had the Minutemen responded like our vollies we'd still be British subjects.

Why don't just admit it that vollies are really pretty worthless and any city that has them would be better off buying fire insurance for all its citizens instead of having the facade of fire protection.

[CHATTAFD12]

Brownouts put fireman in danger, lives and property in danger. It boils down to as simple as if your first due and the second in company is in a Brownout period, your backup is delayed. Lets go one other step,
what if your Brownout period back up is on another run? It simply means, you wait longer for a second in company.

I just wonder what you would think about the nearest station to your home or loved ones being in a
Brownout period or if the station were closed?

You say you want to be a Career Firefighter. Why would you even mention the word BROWNOUT or
station closure. If things continue the way the are going, the career firefighter train is going to pass
you by BUBBA. Al

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

I do live in the dsitrict I work in. And I make runs with them as a volunteer when off-duty, as well as volunteering in aneighboring district.

It's just my opinion.

And you and your department are in violation of federal labor laws...

[Bones42]

...Actually, career personnel respond to 100% of the times they are called. Your rationalization is further proof of your nonsensical logic we've come to expect from you...

Yes, and when I can schedule a 24 hour block of being at the firehouse (and not on family time, vacation, being sick, or working another job)....I can be %100 response during that time as well.

[BoxAlarm187]

I guess i simply can't understand that if you work as firefighter for a living why you would not take those taklents and put them to work in the community in which you live if it's served by a volunteer or combo department. It simply makes no sense to me at all.

And all cops should become auxiliary cops in the community in which they live as well? (Assuming they don't live in the jurisdiction that they work in)