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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I'm curious, what is your annual call volume?
    We are small. This year will be at or close to 235 - 250 calls. We run the gamut from EMS First Responder, Fire, Rescue, Cat in the tree.....

    200 square miles of our coverage, probably 600 sq miles automatic aid for structures

    Very rural. Biggest industry in our area is liquor stores and churches.
    Last edited by LVFD301; 06-20-2012 at 05:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Including your exterior only guys that absolutely no career FD has or allows?
    Yup, including my exterior guys who do the same work on the exterior as any interior firefighter would.

    PS ... My last VFD only had a fandfiul of exterior members, but they fit into the operation seamlessly.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-20-2012 at 05:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup, including my exteriorr guys who do the same work on the exterior as any interior firefighter.

    PS ... My last VFD only had a fandfiul of exterior members, but they fit into the operation seamlessly.
    And you're talking about how efficient your department is? I really hope you are never placed in a position where all of your "interior" firefighters call a MADAY and have to rely on your "exterior" firefighters...


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    Originally Posted by FyredUp

    Dude you wanted to discipline that guy on a ladder, outside of a structure for grabbing that baby.

    Who was not in PPE. Sorry but I have a very low tolerance for 100% preventable injuries, especially if that Dude was a volunteer and just put his famaly's financial situation in jeapordy.

    The firefighter receiving the baby was outside the structure, on a ladder, in no danger. The one in danger was the BABY being handed out the window. Maybe in your cold blooded, calculating, nothing is worth you maybe getting a boo boo logic, not even a baby is worth any risk at all. If that is the case once again I pity you and your absolutely nonsensical way of thinking. If your way of thinking is accepted generally the number of civilian fire deaths will sky rocket. Personally I am beginning to join the crowd that believes you are a coward...I hate pulling that card but I can come up with no other reason for avoiding doing the job as strenuously as you do.

    That's called looking out for the well being of the members when they developp tunnel vision and forget how critical it is to take the time to be safe dispite the stuation around you.

    That is the role of senior personnel


    Turning your firefighters into people that are afraid to act because of a fear of discipline or ridicule by someone who won't do what they might to save a life...No, sorry LA, that is NOT the job of a senior firefighter. If someone had attempted to stop me from going up that ladder for that baby they better be gone when I come back down because I don't need pussies like that working with me.

    You have said repeatedly you would discipline your FD members for acting outside of your fire district off duty.

    Never said they would be disclipined.

    YES YOU DID! And if I cared enough I would go back and find it. I will not let you lie your way out of this.

    I do advise them NEVER to perform in situations outside of the district where there is a liklihood of injury due to the finaincail risks they are taking, but they are not disciplined.

    No, correct that, you advise them NEVER to act at all, anywhere, if there is a trumped up, by you, threat of getting a boo boo.

    They simply will not be covered by workman's comp.


    So doing anything to help your fellow man MUST, in your mind always be prefaced by the fear of not getting worker's compensation? By the way, it is WORKER'S COMPENSATION, that is the politically correct term.

    Let me paint a little scenario for you. You are traveling on a deserted Louisiana country road, in an area with no ccell phone reception, and you come across an obviously pregnant woman, with 3 little kids in her mini-van with a flat tire. You stop to see what the matter is and find out she can't lift the spare out to change the tire. Do you help her change the tire or leave her there pregnant, with 3 little kids in the sweltering LA heat? There is a danger you might get hurt changing the tire. There is a greater danger that if you don't help some bad may befall the woman and her kids....So what do you do? I know 100% what I would do.


    What do you expect people to think when you make comments like those?

    In this business it's very easy to put the mission before thier safety and the financial needs of thier famalies. It's my job as a senior man to watch out for them and do what we need tgo do to ensure that they go home, all the time.

    If you are that afraid of being injured quit the fire department and go back to your safe pre-firefighter days. How do you watch out for them when you say you avoid responding now because you are old and physically not what you used to be?

    No one joins to get hurt, but if you join expecting firefighting to be 100% safe you are too delusionally stupid to be a firefighter.



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    Quote Originally Posted by WhatNow View Post
    And you're talking about how efficient your department is? I really hope you are never placed in a position where all of your "interior" firefighters call a MADAY and have to rely on your "exterior" firefighters...


    .....my brains..........
    Rarely had problems with having enough members for a RIT, especially after we implemented AMA 24/7. If we did, we would call additional mutual aid for RIT.

    Funny thing was that those other two departments usually didn't have a RIT. Of course, they wouldn't call mutual aid for it either.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-20-2012 at 06:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup, including my exterior guys who do the same work on the exterior as any interior firefighter would.

    PS ... My last VFD only had a fandfiul of exterior members, but they fit into the operation seamlessly.
    No matter how delusionally you keep wanting to believe it is so, it simply is not true your exterior only guys are the equal of an interior qualified guy. Tell me why NO career FDs have exterior only guys? No, I will tell you why, because they don't have to compromise operational standards to fool the community into thinking they have a fully staffed and qualified fire department. YOU DO have to do that, and you do it willingly!

    The fallacy is ANY TRAINED FIRE FIGHTER can do exterior work, but an EXTERIOR ONLY firefighter cannot put on an SCBA and come in to save my butt if the world turn to schitt inside. That is tghe failing of your wonderful exterior only guys. You can sing and dance and use all the smoke and mirrors you want but you can't change that fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never had problems with having enoughmembers for a RIT. If we did. we would call mutual aid for RIT.


    I am calling a full scale BS alert on this post. How do you not have problems with staffing RIT when you can't staff a full response with your VFD? Which is it? You bounce back and forth so many times you must be a super ball.

    It seems like mutual aid is the answer to all of your staffing issues. We can't muster a crew so call mutual aid and let's use their resources and funding to fight our fires...



    Funny thing was that those other two departments usually didn't have a RIT. Of course, they wouldn't call mutual aid for it either.

    Yeah, that's real funny, almost hysterical that they had no RIT fr a structure fire.
    You are so delusional you don;t even know your own version of the truth anymore.
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  8. #108
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    ]Originally Posted by FyredUp

    Dude you wanted to discipline that guy on a ladder, outside of a structure for grabbing that baby.

    Who was not in PPE. Sorry but I have a very low tolerance for 100% preventable injuries, especially if that Dude was a volunteer and just put his famaly's financial situation in jeapordy.

    The firefighter receiving the baby was outside the structure, on a ladder, in no danger. The one in danger was the BABY being handed out the window. Maybe in your cold blooded, calculating, nothing is worth you maybe getting a boo boo logic, not even a baby is worth any risk at all. If that is the case once again I pity you and your absolutely nonsensical way of thinking. If your way of thinking is accepted generally the number of civilian fire deaths will sky rocket. Personally I am beginning to join the crowd that believes you are a coward...I hate pulling that card but I can come up with no other reason for avoiding doing the job as strenuously as you do.

    And exactly how you know that he was in no danger. Gloves and a helemt - 10 to 15 seconds to throw them on, and there would not have been an issue. Hell, even just the helmet and I probably would not have seen an issue.

    Agauin, we need to take the time to ALWAYS take care of ourselves, and then do what we need to do - Sizeup, PPE, whatever needs to happen for us to be safe needs to happen all the time before we do our job. It's that simple.

    He didn't take the time to do that and sorry, but needed to be reminded.

    And yes, our Chief did disclipne people for not wearing the PPE they were issued. And I had no problems at all with that as it that's important - All the time. No exceptions.

    If you want to call me a coward, fine, but we owe it to the famalies that thier husbands/wives don't have to miss work for something as simple as not putting on gloves and a helmet.


    That's called looking out for the well being of the members when they develop tunnel vision and forget how critical it is to take the time to be safe dispite the stuation around you.

    That is the role of senior personnel

    Turning your firefighters into people that are afraid to act because of a fear of discipline or ridicule by someone who won't do what they might to save a life...No, sorry LA, that is NOT the job of a senior firefighter. If someone had attempted to stop me from going up that ladder for that baby they better be gone when I come back down because I don't need pussies like that working with me.

    It's not about fear but instilling in them that we are more important than the civilians. Sorry, but that is the way that I feel and likely always will. It's instilling in them that we have the right to take the time to do what we need to do on-scene to make the operation as safe as possible for us before taking actions to change the situation, even if that delays a rescue by 15 or 30 seconds.

    Some folks respond to training and will learn to do the right thing, and take care of themselves before they take care of business. Others will respond to reminders and not do the wrong thing mnore than once or twice before coming around. And yes, there are those that may not take care of themselves before they take care of otehrs unless they are disciplined.

    That's not fear but simply letting folks know what the expectations are, and punishing those that after repeated training, remeinders are warnings simply chose not to get with the program.

    There are members that need that final step.

    If you think going up that ladder without a helmet was the right thing to do, we are operating in two very different places.


    You have said repeatedly you would discipline your FD members for acting outside of your fire district off duty.

    Never said they would be disclipined.

    YES YOU DID! And if I cared enough I would go back and find it. I will not let you lie your way out of this.

    At one point we did tell them that they were not allowed to use our PPE in one particulair city after there had been some issues with a couple of members operating before they arrived. that was at the request of the city fire department, abnd yes, it was told to all members that if they operated in that city, they would likely face discipline.

    It is the right of that department to give us that direction.


    I do advise them NEVER to perform in situations outside of the district where there is a liklihood of injury due to the finaincail risks they are taking, but they are not disciplined.

    No, correct that, you advise them NEVER to act at all, anywhere, if there is a trumped up, by you, threat of getting a boo boo.

    There is a big difference between bumps and bruises, which we get all the time, and serious injury that will put a member out of work, withoutt wage protection, and cost them potentially a very large sum of money if they do not have health insurance, or inadequate health insurance, if they are operating out of the district.

    I'm not concerned about the "boo-boo's", but I am very concerned about them doing soemthing that will change thier lives, and thier famalies lives for many, many years.
    They need to be made fully aware of the potential concequences of thier actions and the affects it could have on their famalies.


    They simply will not be covered by workman's comp.

    So doing anything to help your fellow man MUST, in your mind always be prefaced by the fear of not getting worker's compensation? By the way, it is WORKER'S COMPENSATION, that is the politically correct term.

    If you have family responsibilites, yes, that need's to be a part of the decsion making process.

    Let me paint a little scenario for you. You are traveling on a deserted Louisiana country road, in an area with no ccell phone reception, and you come across an obviously pregnant woman, with 3 little kids in her mini-van with a flat tire. You stop to see what the matter is and find out she can't lift the spare out to change the tire. Do you help her change the tire or leave her there pregnant, with 3 little kids in the sweltering LA heat? There is a danger you might get hurt changing the tire. There is a greater danger that if you don't help some bad may befall the woman and her kids....So what do you do? I know 100% what I would do.

    Minimal risk. Certainly not comparbable to entering a burning building off-duty without PPE, handline, tools and a radio, or the nowe famouus "kid in the car" incident. Obviously I would assist them, much like I have extinguished car fires, assisted other VFDs, performed CPR and other medical car and assisted at MVAs numerous times before.

    But it's all about the level of risk and controlling the risk in those situations, which may mean, not performing high-risk rescues without the proper gear, and waiting for equipped responders, even if that means putting a life at risk. yes, it's all about risk.


    What do you expect people to think when you make comments like those?

    In this business it's very easy to put the mission before thier safety and the financial needs of thier famalies. It's my job as a senior man to watch out for them and do what we need tgo do to ensure that they go home, all the time.

    If you are that afraid of being injured quit the fire department and go back to your safe pre-firefighter days. How do you watch out for them when you say you avoid responding now because you are old and physically not what you used to be?

    Still operate on the fireground at major incidents and most fires, but to a limited extent with my combo department. So i am still there for most working incidents.

    Still operate 100% with my VFD.


    No one joins to get hurt, but if you join expecting firefighting to be 100% safe you are too delusionally stupid to be a firefighter.


    But that doesn't mean that we encourage them not to do what they ashould be doing. Very few of most department responses require immediatte action without being able to take the time to slow the truck dowen and come to a full stop at intersections, bunker out 100% of the time, perform proper size ups and take our time getting lines on the ground and ladders up.

    Very, very few require the risk and immediatte action of a rescue.

    Most injuries are preventable if we evaluate if the actions that lead to them are truly needed in those situations, we take the time to wear all of our PPE and we take the time to have precautions in place. True, it's not 100% safe but we can make it far, far safer than it is now.

    Sadly, there are still departments that see injuries as a "cost of doing business", a"part of the job" or a badge of how rough and tumble you are as a firefighter. Those attitudes are simply no longer acceptable.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You are so delusional you don;t even know your own version of the truth anymore.
    If you look at the post this refers to, I was discussing my previous VFD.

    We generally didn't have a problem with a RIT as we were responding 2-3 additional departments as part of an AMA package.

    If they couldn't provide what we needed there were 2 other VFDs within 10 minutes that we could call and they would provide manpoer for RIT.

    As far as AMA, yes, it was the answer for every VFD in that area, especially for daytime manpower. It worked. And everybody benefitted as they came to us and we went to them.

    In reality, what is the difference between AMA and a 3-4 station department dumping all thier resources onto an incident? At least in our AMA system, there was backfill if it was a working incident.

    yes, y current VFD does have issues with manpower and RIT initially. It can be filled with mutual aid, but it takes a few minutes for that to happen. Again, we do rely on mutual aid for structure fires and likely always will, even if we are able to recruit additional volunteers, as paid staffing is simply not an option and likely never will be.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-20-2012 at 06:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ]Originally Posted by FyredUp

    Dude you wanted to discipline that guy on a ladder, outside of a structure for grabbing that baby.

    Who was not in PPE. Sorry but I have a very low tolerance for 100% preventable injuries, especially if that Dude was a volunteer and just put his famaly's financial situation in jeapordy.

    The firefighter receiving the baby was outside the structure, on a ladder, in no danger. The one in danger was the BABY being handed out the window. Maybe in your cold blooded, calculating, nothing is worth you maybe getting a boo boo logic, not even a baby is worth any risk at all. If that is the case once again I pity you and your absolutely nonsensical way of thinking. If your way of thinking is accepted generally the number of civilian fire deaths will sky rocket. Personally I am beginning to join the crowd that believes you are a coward...I hate pulling that card but I can come up with no other reason for avoiding doing the job as strenuously as you do.

    And exactly how you know that he was in no danger. Gloves and a helemt - 10 to 15 seconds to throw them on, and there would not have been an issue. Hell, even just the helmet and I probably would not have seen an issue.

    Agauin, we need to take the time to ALWAYS take care of ourselves, and then do what we need to do - Sizeup, PPE, whatever needs to happen for us to be safe needs to happen all the time before we do our job. It's that simple.

    He didn't take the time to do that and sorry, but needed to be reminded.

    And yes, our Chief did disclipne people for not wearing the PPE they were issued. And I had no problems at all with that as it that's important - All the time. No exceptions.

    If you want to call me a coward, fine, but we owe it to the famalies that thier husbands/wives don't have to miss work for something as simple as not putting on gloves and a helmet.


    That's called looking out for the well being of the members when they develop tunnel vision and forget how critical it is to take the time to be safe dispite the stuation around you.

    That is the role of senior personnel

    Turning your firefighters into people that are afraid to act because of a fear of discipline or ridicule by someone who won't do what they might to save a life...No, sorry LA, that is NOT the job of a senior firefighter. If someone had attempted to stop me from going up that ladder for that baby they better be gone when I come back down because I don't need pussies like that working with me.

    It's not about fear but instilling in them that we are more important than the civilians. Sorry, but that is the way that I feel and likely always will. It's instilling in them that we have the right to take the time to do what we need to do on-scene to make the operation as safe as possible for us before taking actions to change the situation, even if that delays a rescue by 15 or 30 seconds.

    Some folks respond to training and will learn to do the right thing, and take care of themselves before they take care of business. Others will respond to reminders and not do the wrong thing mnore than once or twice before coming around. And yes, there are those that may not take care of themselves before they take care of otehrs unless they are disciplined.

    That's not fear but simply letting folks know what the expectations are, and punishing those that after repeated training, remeinders are warnings simply chose not to get with the program.

    There are members that need that final step.

    If you think going up that ladder without a helmet was the right thing to do, we are operating in two very different places.


    You have said repeatedly you would discipline your FD members for acting outside of your fire district off duty.

    Never said they would be disclipined.

    YES YOU DID! And if I cared enough I would go back and find it. I will not let you lie your way out of this.

    At one point we did tell them that they were not allowed to use our PPE in one particulair city after there had been some issues with a couple of members operating before they arrived. that was at the request of the city fire department, abnd yes, it was told to all members that if they operated in that city, they would likely face discipline.

    It is the right of that department to give us that direction.


    I do advise them NEVER to perform in situations outside of the district where there is a liklihood of injury due to the finaincail risks they are taking, but they are not disciplined.

    No, correct that, you advise them NEVER to act at all, anywhere, if there is a trumped up, by you, threat of getting a boo boo.

    There is a big difference between bumps and bruises, which we get all the time, and serious injury that will put a member out of work, withoutt wage protection, and cost them potentially a very large sum of money if they do not have health insurance, or inadequate health insurance, if they are operating out of the district.

    I'm not concerned about the "boo-boo's", but I am very concerned about them doing soemthing that will change thier lives, and thier famalies lives for many, many years.
    They need to be made fully aware of the potential concequences of thier actions and the affects it could have on their famalies.


    They simply will not be covered by workman's comp.

    So doing anything to help your fellow man MUST, in your mind always be prefaced by the fear of not getting worker's compensation? By the way, it is WORKER'S COMPENSATION, that is the politically correct term.

    If you have family responsibilites, yes, that need's to be a part of the decsion making process.

    Let me paint a little scenario for you. You are traveling on a deserted Louisiana country road, in an area with no ccell phone reception, and you come across an obviously pregnant woman, with 3 little kids in her mini-van with a flat tire. You stop to see what the matter is and find out she can't lift the spare out to change the tire. Do you help her change the tire or leave her there pregnant, with 3 little kids in the sweltering LA heat? There is a danger you might get hurt changing the tire. There is a greater danger that if you don't help some bad may befall the woman and her kids....So what do you do? I know 100% what I would do.

    Minimal risk. Certainly not comparbable to entering a burning building off-duty without PPE, handline, tools and a radio, or the nowe famouus "kid in the car" incident. Obviously I would assist them, much like I have extinguished car fires, assisted other VFDs, performed CPR and other medical car and assisted at MVAs numerous times before.

    But it's all about the level of risk and controlling the risk in those situations, which may mean, not performing high-risk rescues without the proper gear, and waiting for equipped responders, even if that means putting a life at risk. yes, it's all about risk.


    What do you expect people to think when you make comments like those?

    In this business it's very easy to put the mission before thier safety and the financial needs of thier famalies. It's my job as a senior man to watch out for them and do what we need tgo do to ensure that they go home, all the time.

    If you are that afraid of being injured quit the fire department and go back to your safe pre-firefighter days. How do you watch out for them when you say you avoid responding now because you are old and physically not what you used to be?

    Still operate on the fireground at major incidents and most fires, but to a limited extent with my combo department. So i am still there for most working incidents.

    Still operate 100% with my VFD.


    No one joins to get hurt, but if you join expecting firefighting to be 100% safe you are too delusionally stupid to be a firefighter.


    But that doesn't mean that we encourage them not to do what they ashould be doing. Very few of most department responses require immediatte action without being able to take the time to slow the truck dowen and come to a full stop at intersections, bunker out 100% of the time, perform proper size ups and take our time getting lines on the ground and ladders up.

    Very, very few require the risk and immediatte action of a rescue.

    Most injuries are preventable if we evaluate if the actions that lead to them are truly needed in those situations, we take the time to wear all of our PPE and we take the time to have precautions in place. True, it's not 100% safe but we can make it far, far safer than it is now.

    Sadly, there are still departments that see injuries as a "cost of doing business", a"part of the job" or a badge of how rough and tumble you are as a firefighter. Those attitudes are simply no longer acceptable.
    This post by LA proves the truth in the adage that the insane and the incompetent are always the most committed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No matter how delusionally you keep wanting to believe it is so, it simply is not true your exterior only guys are the equal of an interior qualified guy. Tell me why NO career FDs have exterior only guys? No, I will tell you why, because they don't have to compromise operational standards to fool the community into thinking they have a fully staffed and qualified fire department. YOU DO have to do that, and you do it willingly!

    The fallacy is ANY TRAINED FIRE FIGHTER can do exterior work, but an EXTERIOR ONLY firefighter cannot put on an SCBA and come in to save my butt if the world turn to schitt inside. That is tghe failing of your wonderful exterior only guys. You can sing and dance and use all the smoke and mirrors you want but you can't change that fact.
    I'm not going to get into this again.

    Exterior members allow interior members to go interior in limited manpower situations.

    It works. It's that simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This post by LA proves the truth in the adage that the insane and the incompetent are always the most committed.
    Committed to making what we do a whole lot safer for us, yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm not going to get into this again.

    Exterior members allow interior members to go interior in limited manpower situations.

    It works. It's that simple.
    And everyone qualified to do everything leaves no questions as to who can do what when. 2 in 2 out really isn't true if the 2 out can't go in. Face the reality that you are fooling yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And everyone qualified to do everything leaves no questions as to who can do what when. 2 in 2 out really isn't true if the 2 out can't go in. Face the reality that you are fooling yourself.
    We've had this discussion.

    The system works very well in my current combo department. The system worked very well in my previous department.

    2 In/2 Out isn't an issue with my combo department and was never really was an issue in my previous department for one simple reason - the line rarely made it into the building before additional members arrive POV or with the second due engine. In the the time it took to do the 360, get the line on the ground and get it in the door we had more than enough folks on the fireground to have a RIT crew ready even with some of the personnel on-scene being exterior firefighters.

    And we have/had plenty of personnel in most cases to expand the RIT. If we didn't we simply called additional mutual aid.

    I'm sorry you seem to have such a problem comprehending this. Maybe your system of all interior personnel isn't working to well for ya. If you need a hand expanding your on-scene manpower, just give me a call and I'll help you out with some ideas that work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    We are small. This year will be at or close to 235 - 250 calls. We run the gamut from EMS First Responder, Fire, Rescue, Cat in the tree.....
    Interesting. Each responder has an average 70% response rate? Thats an average of 175 calls for each member at 250 calls/year. We're doing 700/year with 65 members, with members averaging a 15-25% response to calls - 105 to 175 calls per member.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    I'm sorry you seem to have such a problem comprehending this. Maybe your system of all interior personnel isn't working to well for ya. If you need a hand expanding your on-scene manpower, just give me a call and I'll help you out with some ideas that work.
    Nice attempt to redirect. Too bad you couldn't be more wrong. Nice try though but no points will be awarded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That wasn't an issue with my last VFD.
    Since you only mentioned how it wasn't an issue at your last VFD, then it must be an issue with your current FDs.

    Man for man, I would put them against most career departments.
    Coming from you, that doesn't mean much since you consider exterior only personnel and interior personnel as "equals".

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup, including my exterior guys who do the same work on the exterior as any interior firefighter would.
    I know in your mind you can do it, but in the real world, how can you possibly match up man for man with a career department when you include personnel that can't/won't do "half" the job?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That wasn't an issue with my last VFD.

    Man for man, I would put them against most career departments.
    Same guys you argue that they don't need to conform to national standards for FFI&II, or they only need to "Train to fight the fires you fight?" I again call B.S.
    slackjawedyokel likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sadly, there are still departments that see injuries as a "cost of doing business", a"part of the job" or a badge of how rough and tumble you are as a firefighter. Those attitudes are simply no longer acceptable.
    No, what's sad is that you don't understand that injuries truly are a "cost of doing business" and "part of the job". Unless you spend your entire career working in the background, it's virtually impossible to not be injured at some point in your career. However, there's a difference between getting injured doing what you are supposed to be doing and doing something stupid, careless or reckless.

    For example, in my 19 year career I've had 3 "significant" injuries - 2 of which resulted in lost-time. The first was a severe ankle sprain at a structure fire while walking across a street to the fire building. No idea why it happened. I was walking and all of a sudden I'm on the ground in pain.

    The second was early this year, I was venting 2nd floor windows from a snow covered porch roof and ended up with what the Doc said was "tennis elbow" and "golfer's elbow", which is apparently pretty hard to do at the same time.

    The third was last week working at a multiple dwelling fire. I did normal FF stuff and after I came out for a break, I started to have lower back pain that developed into back spasms.

    Three injuries doing exactly what I should have been doing and doing it without being recklessly or doing something stupid. I wasn't operating in unstable abandoned buildings. I wasn't operating on a roof with fire already venting. I was simply doing my job and got hurt.

    I personally don't know any true firefighters that think of getting hurt on the job as a badge of anything.

    There are actually two attitudes that have no place in the fire service. The first is the type of attitude you have. The myopic view that all injuries are avoidable and/or unacceptable plus a sign of "failure". The second attitude is actually the one that you take issue with. The belief that "high risk, low reward" actions must be taken because they can be or they think they should be.

    I wholeheartedly believe that the fire service as a whole needs to make some adjustments in how it has historically operated in order to match current day hazards, like lightweight construction and the proliferation of hotter burning synthetic building contents. However, the job will never be injury free unless we never come to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm not going to get into this again.

    Exterior members allow interior members to go interior in limited manpower situations.
    True. However, they can also be a liability in limited manpower situations. If you need interior tasks done and only have exterior personnel available, then you've got a problem.

    It works. It's that simple.
    It works sometimes, maybe even most of the time, but definitely not all of the time. It's that simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Committed to making what we do a whole lot safer for us, yes.
    You left out "no matter what the cost to the public."
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Interesting. Each responder has an average 70% response rate? Thats an average of 175 calls for each member at 250 calls/year. We're doing 700/year with 65 members, with members averaging a 15-25% response to calls - 105 to 175 calls per member.
    So the total number of calls for each individual is probably fairly close to the same - the total calls for the department throws off the percentage.

    Actually kind of makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Committed to making what we do a whole lot safer for us, yes.
    No one believes that is your goal.

    What people do believe is that you want to wear the uniform but want none of the responsibility that comes with it.

    You don't believe in any standard, you don't believe fitness is a necessary component, and you will look for any reason to avoid doing the job. That's hardly making the job safer for anyone save those who don't want to do the job.
    Last edited by scfire86; 06-21-2012 at 12:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I know in your mind you can do it, but in the real world, how can you possibly match up man for man with a career department when you include personnel that can't/won't do "half" the job?
    For one simple reason.

    There will always be tasks that need to be performed on the exterior. Pump Ops. Water supply. Forcible entry. PPV operations.

    And there will always be a need for those one or two people to perform just those operations.
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