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Thread: The danger of LAFE's way of thinking

  1. #301
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    Got it. I just realized it. Don't give them a legitimate certification and they will have a harder time leaving and going somewhere better. Certify them enough to pretend you're helping but not enough that they could leave if they wanted and go on to bigger and better things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...if he/she wishes to take FFI/II after completing the rookie class to expand his/her general knowledge, or to get a leg up if trying to find a FT firefighters job, great.
    Really? You've changed your stance on this topic once again.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As a department we do not owe them training to operate elsewhere or to progress to a paid position, which at least 12-15 of our volunteers have over the past 5 years.
    Is your beef with folks getting trained by your department and then moving on? That is the nature of the beast anywhere you go in any occupation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...we can isolate the training to structure types and likely incidents.
    You've once again that you train on the likely (and hope it works) and not the potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I simply refuse to take a volunteer's time to teach him irrelevant material as part of a required rookie program.
    Who are you to decide what is relevant and what is not? If you are picking and choosing topics based on a "we ain't never had one of them before" mentality, you will get some of your people hurt or worse, killed. That is reckless and unacceptable. A firefighter's job is dangerous enough. It is not fair to stack the deck against someone by virtue of their training (or lack thereof).
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 07-13-2012 at 10:14 PM.
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    You don't owe them training but I owe my current community another cities paid training by volunteering? How does that make any sense
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    You don't owe them training but I owe my current community another cities paid training by volunteering? How does that make any sense
    BINGO! The final nail in the round and round hypocritical BS that LA spreads. He can't even keep track of his own illogical, nonsensical, hypocritical, basicly stupid troll based arguments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And that's your opinion.

    I simply refuse to take a volunteer's time to teach him irrelevant material as part of a required rookie program. if he/she wishes to take FFI/II after completing the rookie class to expand his/her general knowledge, or to get a leg up if trying to find a FT firefighters job, great.
    This just gets better and better.

    What a disgrace to the fire service.

    What's sad is this is not an uncommon belief in the volunteer ranks of the fire service in America.
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    It is an uncommon belief, and the more you spout your narrow-minded view on volunteers (and everything anything you aren't force fed by your democrat overlords) the more I believe you and bobby one in the same.
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    The truth is short sighted, narrow minded, volunteer and Paid On Call FDs do NOT want to see their firefighters get trained and skilled enough to move on. They see that as a loss and a cost to high to pay.

    I never looked at it that way when I was a Chief and I never look at it that way today as a training officer for 2 POC FDs. I want my guys trained at as high a level as we can get them and if that gets them a full time job I look at that with pride. Why? Because one of my guys was good enough to go full time. Whether we want to admit it or not as vollies, that is the big leagues.

    Selfish fire chiefs, training officers, and more want to hold people back. Visionary leaders know that you can't hold people back and frankly anyone that doesn't want to make themselves better really is falling behind. I find it absolutely ludicrous to with hold training because you are afraid your people might leave for a career job. Then stand up and say that your FD has many Career firefighters. Or that Career firefighters MUST volunteer where they live. Pathetic, indefensible thinking.
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    Fyred, what's a good estimate of the number of volunteers who are/were career elsewhere? I don't know how it is up North but we have a good amount of guys stay on as volunteers or guys move in and are already career elsewhere. We were bull****ting about that to some volunteers yesterday, in fact. One made a good natured joke about us getting paid to do what they're forced to do (speaking of apparatus checks, maintenance, housekeeping, etc.) and it was all just a bunch of firefighters bull****ting. He said he never realized how much it benefits his parish to bring in around 12 guys with very expensive training and priceless experience at minimal cost other than salaries. A majority of the departments have genuinely enjoyed our introduction into their fire district as we take all calls that come in during their normal working hours. This has freed up many of them to continue working unless the four of us on duty feel we need assistance. They are free to respond if they choose and we never turn them away unless its UC. Freeing up their time during the day has dramatically improved response at night, when the good ones happen. The benefit of the paid staff also has cut the maintenance cost nearly in half as what Ferrera charged 90/hour to do, we can do a good amount and they only pay us 9.50-10/ hour. The kicker is all 12 p/t guys are not only career at their main department but 10/12 are volunteer at a third. The cost of training us at our career has greatly benefited two other fire departments at virtually no cost.

    My question is this: I know cost/value is proportional to the budgets of the two departments but does the money lost to volly invested firefighters moving on end up recouped with career invested firefighters coming in?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Fyred, what's a good estimate of the number of volunteers who are/were career elsewhere? I have many friends that are career on one department and vollies/Paid On Call on 1 or 2 other departments. I am the only career member on both of the POC FDs I am on. In fact there are probably at least 2 dozen on my career FD that are volly/POC/part-time on other FDs. I don't know how it is up North but we have a good amount of guys stay on as volunteers or guys move in and are already career elsewhere. It seems to be that way around here too. Well, unless the career FD has a policy against volunteering or working for another fire department. There are some volunteer/POC FDs that have rules against belonging to more than one FD. We were bull****ting about that to some volunteers yesterday, in fact. One made a good natured joke about us getting paid to do what they're forced to do (speaking of apparatus checks, maintenance, housekeeping, etc.) and it was all just a bunch of firefighters bull****ting. He said he never realized how much it benefits his parish to bring in around 12 guys with very expensive training and priceless experience at minimal cost other than salaries. A majority of the departments have genuinely enjoyed our introduction into their fire district as we take all calls that come in during their normal working hours. This has freed up many of them to continue working unless the four of us on duty feel we need assistance. They are free to respond if they choose and we never turn them away unless its UC. Not too many situations like that around here. Some of the more metro, or busier VFD/POC FDs have full timers for either day time coverage or for 24s to augment staffing. Freeing up their time during the day has dramatically improved response at night, when the good ones happen. Its funny my one POC FD we almost always get a good response, on the other it is hit and miss. The benefit of the paid staff also has cut the maintenance cost nearly in half as what Ferrera charged 90/hour to do, we can do a good amount and they only pay us 9.50-10/ hour. I appreciate the idea behind that. It would have the potential to save us a TON of money. The kicker is all 12 p/t guys are not only career at their main department but 10/12 are volunteer at a third. I know, we all want MORE action, as well as more opportunites to learn the job. The cost of training us at our career has greatly benefited two other fire departments at virtually no cost. Indeed, and in my case has allowed me to be an asset as training officer. AND NO, I don't molly coddle and decimate standards because they aren't career!

    My question is this: I know cost/value is proportional to the budgets of the two departments but does the money lost to volly invested firefighters moving on end up recouped with career invested firefighters coming in? Not a fair question in Wisconsin. All Entry Level and Cert courses are paid for by the State so there is no FD cost for those classes. I would say that it is more than recouped by those volunteer fire departments. Do you know of any VFD/POC FD that sends their Probies through an academy equal to what most career FDs do? The benefit is with a little bit of acclimation to local ops a career firefighter is ready to go to work right now. With better training, and more than likely far more actual experience.
    This absolute BS by LA is just more of how he is proud to hold people back, make them believe they are all they can be, and not support someone trying to better themselves. He has proven time and time again how much he absolutely despises career firefighters, well, unless they are volunteering to help HIM and HIS department.
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    It's sadly opposite here in my town. They have no career firefighter on the small vollie department and the chief works extremely hard to keep them off. In his little fiefdom, progress is unheard of, outside training is non existent, and the day time response is deplorable. A perfect example of what prejudicial, narrow minded leadership provides.
    Seriously, they couldn't save a structure if the alarm came in an hour before the fire started.
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    That's about what I imagined. No VFD or POC sends their jrff's through any academy though I've had my other departments more determined to send me to offsite classes than my paid department. I've never had a chief or coordinator say "why would we send you to that class if you're just going to use it at another department." Never have I seen departments 'compete' like that. I've also never seen a department 'horde' is members and refuse to train some one just incase they decide to leave. It's always been my understanding that every member is a benefit to the service itself. We are beyond each department acting on its own and not wanting to give or receive help. Really makes me rethink the actual reason no one wants bobby or people around their scene.

    I can't, for the life of me, figure out why a department would choose to compete with other departments. No matter if it benefits you directly or not, we're all in this together. If anything, I've always seen departments extend invitations to others for training, seminars, and drill nights. Builds camaraderie and improves communication which is important for that rare chance they get 'the big one'. Of all the things bobby has done or said, this is the worst. I chalk up 99% of it to him just being a brain dead moron with no understanding of what the fire service does and what it's suppose to do. But this...... this is sad because it is apparent that those who are actually in charge agree with this mindset and promote the degradation of standards in a pathetic attempt to keep numbers. I know what it is like to work a department that forces training to the back burner and then only cooks up enough to shut you up and pretend they're doing their duty but not enough to keep you full. It's heart breaking, spirit breaking, and dangerous. I'm truly thankful for the other two departments I work that have their priorities in order and feel horrible for those who have to endure bobby but don't have anywhere else to turn.

    It's an abusive relationship. Ask them to risk their lives for you but don't provide them with every measure possible to prevent injury and death. They can't leave because they don't have anything other than a piece of paper bobby prints and puts a gold star on. The amount of people who flee the department is a clear indication of the sheer number of people who have met him and are disgusted by his hypocritical stupidity. Good thing he doesn't find a need to train on 35' ladders, some one might climb up his high horse and beat him with the white flag of safety he pretends to wave when everyone else knows he's just surrendering the community to a certain death to prevent his own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    It's sadly opposite here in my town. They have no career firefighter on the small vollie department and the chief works extremely hard to keep them off. In his little fiefdom, progress is unheard of, outside training is non existent, and the day time response is deplorable. A perfect example of what prejudicial, narrow minded leadership provides.
    Seriously, they couldn't save a structure if the alarm came in an hour before the fire started.
    Shamefully those are the Volly FDs that taint everyones perception of volly FDs. There are some incredibly well trained and professional Volly/POC FDs in my area. They have minimum standards for membership, some FF1, some FF2 and other certs as they seek promotion, they train regularly, they offer outside training opportunities, and are always looking at ways to be better. Some struggle with finances, and some with staffing, but they make no excuses and do their best to move forward.

    Narrow minds always think of what you are doing TO them and not what they can do FOR you. These so called chiefs are the perfect example of them thinking you doing it TO them by wanting to improve yourself and your lot in life. Perhaps if those same chiefs did more FOR the firefighters they would be inclined to stay if they could after being hired as a career firefighter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    That's about what I imagined. No VFD or POC sends their jrff's through any academy though I've had my other departments more determined to send me to offsite classes than my paid department. I've never had a chief or coordinator say "why would we send you to that class if you're just going to use it at another department." Never have I seen departments 'compete' like that. I've also never seen a department 'horde' is members and refuse to train some one just incase they decide to leave. It's always been my understanding that every member is a benefit to the service itself. We are beyond each department acting on its own and not wanting to give or receive help. Really makes me rethink the actual reason no one wants bobby or people around their scene.

    My career FD offers a wide variety of advanced training inhouse, using our training officers and firefighters, and also outside instructors when appropriate. I can honestly say I get far more outside the FD training from my POC FDs than I do from my career FD. All 3 FDs benefit from the training I receive, NO MATTER WHERE IT COMES FROM.

    I can't, for the life of me, figure out why a department would choose to compete with other departments. No matter if it benefits you directly or not, we're all in this together. If anything, I've always seen departments extend invitations to others for training, seminars, and drill nights. Builds camaraderie and improves communication which is important for that rare chance they get 'the big one'. Of all the things bobby has done or said, this is the worst. I chalk up 99% of it to him just being a brain dead moron with no understanding of what the fire service does and what it's suppose to do. But this...... this is sad because it is apparent that those who are actually in charge agree with this mindset and promote the degradation of standards in a pathetic attempt to keep numbers. I know what it is like to work a department that forces training to the back burner and then only cooks up enough to shut you up and pretend they're doing their duty but not enough to keep you full. It's heart breaking, spirit breaking, and dangerous. I'm truly thankful for the other two departments I work that have their priorities in order and feel horrible for those who have to endure bobby but don't have anywhere else to turn.

    Believe me I do not see this as a wide spread problem. Most FDs and Chief officers are smart enough to know that training and experience is good, no matter the source. Like I said I only know of a couple FDs in my area that require you only belong to their FD. One I was on tried to make an issue of it with me until I said my career FD is MY JOB, the way I PAY MY BILLS, in that way it is no different than anyone else's job. That opened some eyes...

    Bobby is just another example of the small town fire officers that look at anyone smarter, or better trained, or wanting to improve themself, as a threat. A threat to status quo, a threat to their "power", a threat to their "superiority", and the most serious...a threat to their self importance.


    It's an abusive relationship. Ask them to risk their lives for you but don't provide them with every measure possible to prevent injury and death. They can't leave because they don't have anything other than a piece of paper bobby prints and puts a gold star on. The amount of people who flee the department is a clear indication of the sheer number of people who have met him and are disgusted by his hypocritical stupidity. Good thing he doesn't find a need to train on 35' ladders, some one might climb up his high horse and beat him with the white flag of safety he pretends to wave when everyone else knows he's just surrendering the community to a certain death to prevent his own.

    The truth is, and you know this as well, the guys that want to be a career firefighter will do what is needed on their own. Only those with no drive, no ambition, and no willpower will never look outside the miniscule world's of those like Bobby paints.

    He has said over and over he would let his own family die, he would let his friends, and neighbors die. He has said any building he deems abandoned will NOT be searched. Homes with no cars in the driveway or no trashcans will be considered vacant. Bobby is all about saving Bobby while trying to act in the guise of a firefighter. I am no suicide mission firefighter but if I am willing to risk nothing at all then why play firefighter? Go do something else safe like collecting stamps.
    He is what he is and it is an embarassment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Yeah, I've given and graded the ****ing test, my girlfriend could pass it after reading a sprinkler schematic for 5 minutes. I never said FF1 was complete, I've said time and time again I'd expand it. If you can add a very technically demanding aspect such as extrication, then you can teach them how to throw a god damn 24' or 35' ladder.

    There is nothing difficult about the standpipe portion. The only portion that really asks about standpipes is to identify and O.S. and Y valve, Siamese, and wye's. The sprinkler portion asks you to identify 2 types of sprinkler heads. The portion on building construction is applicable to EVERYONE. There is no way in hell every house is identical and no new construction will ever take place, go feed that bull**** to the idiots around you. You have no businesses in your district? NO one has an alarm? No one has a sprinkler? Don't act like I'm as stupid as you.

    We have businesses in our district. We have one business that has an alarm system. We have a supermarket and one strip mall that has a sprinkler system.

    So you complain that it's just too damn difficult to train your men to FF1 and then, in the same breath, try and boast that you can do it all in-house yourself?

    Wasn't boasting. Just proving that a department can design a program to train them to what you consider minimum standards without making them certify to FFI. You are the one that seemingly has you panties in a bunch now because I proved it could be and is being done.


    So is the problem that no one wants to go through you to get certified because they all know you're a dolt?

    Any requests for testing go through the Deputy Chief, not me. We have several that are cleaning up thier haz-mat requirements now, and will be testing FFI once that is taken care of.

    Is it a lack of motivation because you're constantly telling them lies like "you'll never need this"?

    Given that over 50% of our volunteers have FFI and many of them have FFII, obviously a healthy chunk does choose to test.

    If your in house certification is the same as FF1, then how can you say its useless to your department?

    It's not the same as we don't train on alarms, sprinklers and standpipes. We do not teach them about hose loads we do not use and tools we do not use. They train on and must perform relevant skills that we select as such.

    If your 'certification' is equal to FF1 then why can't you justify them receiving FF1 so that they can go ANYWHERE else and not look like they can from podunk vfd?

    We pay for them to take FFI. We hold review sessions so they can study and clean up skills. We pay for the testing. We want them to have FFI but we feel it should be their choice. Some want to progress and test, either for the knowledge, or to have the ability to take other LSU classes requiring FFI, or to be in a position to apply for a job with us or another department. Some have no issues staying where they are with department training.

    Do you realize how big of a hypocrite and even bigger liar you are? How long will you keep this charade up? I don't mind you being an absolute moron, it's expected. Stop trying to lie and manipulate everything and pretend you're somehow justified. I really hope your department doesn't take too long to recover from your ****ty ways after you're eventually kicked to the curb.
    The department has been using this system long before I arrived. I'm not in charge of training. The Deputy Chief is and he likes this system. I happen to like it as well. Nobody in the command staff wants to change it because it works quite well.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-14-2012 at 10:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Got it. I just realized it. Don't give them a legitimate certification and they will have a harder time leaving and going somewhere better. Certify them enough to pretend you're helping but not enough that they could leave if they wanted and go on to bigger and better things.
    Ya, that's why we teach FFI, FFII and other classes. That's why we pay them to attend instructor, officer, extrication, industrial firefighting and technical rescue classes in the case of our career members, and pay for the classes and travel for our volunteers. That's why we pay for the testing and reward them with points which equals $$$ in their points checks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Really? You've changed your stance on this topic once again.

    No, that's exactly what I posted. You were the one with reading comprehension issues so I rephrased it.


    Is your beef with folks getting trained by your department and then moving on? That is the nature of the beast anywhere you go in any occupation.

    Nope. If it was we would not offer the classes or pay for the classes if we didn't offer them and pay for the testing, would we?

    We simply feel that a volunteer should NEVER be forced to certify.



    You've once again that you train on the likely (and hope it works) and not the potential.

    Ya, if that's what you say.



    Who are you to decide what is relevant and what is not? If you are picking and choosing topics based on a "we ain't never had one of them before" mentality, you will get some of your people hurt or worse, killed. That is reckless and unacceptable. A firefighter's job is dangerous enough. It is not fair to stack the deck against someone by virtue of their training (or lack thereof).
    Again, if that's what you say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    This absolute BS by LA is just more of how he is proud to hold people back, make them believe they are all they can be, and not support someone trying to better themselves. He has proven time and time again how much he absolutely despises career firefighters, well, unless they are volunteering to help HIM and HIS department.
    What's really sad is your reading comprehension. I'll repeat this for like the 40th time ...

    We teach certification classes.

    If we don't teach them, we'll pay for them at LSU or another department.

    We send paid personnel to them on department time.

    We pay volunteer travel expenses ans at times will pay for hotels and meals.

    We probably spend 10K a year sending members to other non-certification classes.

    We reward certifications with points.

    Full time members get incentive pay for certs and volunteers who work part-time have incentive pay figured into tier pay rates.

    So exactly where do we not encourage certification and advanced non-certification training?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Got it. I just realized it. Don't give them a legitimate certification and they will have a harder time leaving and going somewhere better. Certify them enough to pretend you're helping but not enough that they could leave if they wanted and go on to bigger and better things.
    I just did some math.

    Over the 10 years that I have been with my combo department 16 of our members have been hired by neighboring all career or combo fire districts.

    Ya, that's right, we're not doing a damn thing to help them move on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    It is an uncommon belief, and the more you spout your narrow-minded view on volunteers (and everything anything you aren't force fed by your democrat overlords) the more I believe you and bobby one in the same.
    All I have is the vollies that worked in my dept. and Bobby as examples.

    And what do you mean by "democrat overlords?" What part of the conservative movement right now supports public employees? All that group is spouting is how public employees are overpaid with excessive benefits.

    Keep supporting conservatives. As you buy them the rope they'll use to hang you.
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    It's an abusive relationship. Ask them to risk their lives for you but don't provide them with every measure possible to prevent injury and death. They can't leave because they don't have anything other than a piece of paper bobby prints and puts a gold star on. The amount of people who flee the department is a clear indication of the sheer number of people who have met him and are disgusted by his hypocritical stupidity. Good thing he doesn't find a need to train on 35' ladders, some one might climb up his high horse and beat him with the white flag of safety he pretends to wave when everyone else knows he's just surrendering the community to a certain death to prevent his own.


    Huh?

    Fleeing the department? We have 90 volunteers compared to probably no more than 20 in any other volunteer or combo department in the parish.

    As far as the other crap about me .. prove it.

    If you really want to take this to that level, so be it, but until you can prove half the carp you spit out, that's all it will be.
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    Keep believing that I must be a Conservative if I think you're narrow minded and ignorant. There's a bigger world out there, start thinking for yourself and you might notice it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Keep believing that I must be a Conservative if I think you're narrow minded and ignorant. There's a bigger world out there, start thinking for yourself and you might notice it.
    Dude,

    Seriously you can't post crap like this and not expect to be called a conservative, or a republican, or a tea party member.

    It is an uncommon belief, and the more you spout your narrow-minded view on volunteers (and everything anything you aren't force fed by your democrat overlords) the more I believe you and bobby one in the same.
    That isn't the kind of thing you generally here from a Democrat, or an Independent. It is CLEARLY posted by someone who knows exactly what he said and what it says about him.

    I am no great fan of SC's constant barrage against vollies, but I definitely think you are every bit out of line as he is with this BS. So either nut up and admit what you are, or shut up about it and keep it out of the discussion.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So exactly where do we not encourage certification and advanced non-certification training?
    Right here:

    As a department we do not owe them training to operate elsewhere or to progress to a paid position, which at least 12-15 of our volunteers have over the past 5 years.
    The stupidity of this statement. The reality is the skills you would teach them to valuable to your own department makes them viable for another, even a career department. You have no right to try and hold people back by withholding training that would make them not only better equipped to fight your fires but also more employable elsewhere.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Keep believing that I must be a Conservative if I think you're narrow minded and ignorant. There's a bigger world out there, start thinking for yourself and you might notice it.
    I never stated you were/are a conservative. Read my post again.

    Now you show that you have comprehension problems.

    What part of my statement is close-minded as it relates the current attitude about the conservative movement and public employees?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Right here:



    The stupidity of this statement. The reality is the skills you would teach them to valuable to your own department makes them viable for another, even a career department. You have no right to try and hold people back by withholding training that would make them not only better equipped to fight your fires but also more employable elsewhere.
    The same skill set that applies to our district also applies to just about every combo department in this region, so we are, in essense training them to operate in other places. Our mutual aid departments have a working knowledge of our rookie training and they know what they bring to the table if they have completed it and apply elsewhere.

    We will pay for them to take certification classes. We will pay for them to take non-certification classes and will even pay for travel and lodging if they apply to what they do on the department.

    If they want to get certified as FFI, FFII or just about anything else that's great. If you define not requiring FFI as holding them back, that's silliness. That being said, I stand by my statement that no department owes a member training that does not apply to the district. My combo department doesn't send members, career or volunteer to attend ARFF or trench rescue as examples, because we don't provide those services, don't have the apparatus or equipment for those operations. That is simply a wise use of the taxpayers money. My VFD has the same policy regarding training on operations that we do not perform.

    I know of many VFDs that do not pay for FFI certification for it's members as it's something the department does not require.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-15-2012 at 08:17 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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