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Thread: The danger of LAFE's way of thinking

  1. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Physical fitness isn't a personal choice, it's a requirement. I run nearly everyday, do my Crossfit type workouts, and eat well to increase my chances of survival. Should I go down, I should receive nearly the same chances of survival as you would. If its not a choice (everywhere but in bobby world) on what you need to know, why should it be a choice on what you can actually do?
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey


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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Physical fitness isn't a personal choice, it's a requirement. I run nearly everyday, do my Crossfit type workouts, and eat well to increase my chances of survival. Should I go down, I should receive nearly the same chances of survival as you would. If its not a choice (everywhere but in bobby world) on what you need to know, why should it be a choice on what you can actually do?
    Unless you want to mandate gym time, or have annual physical performance requirements, it actually is the choice of each member as to how little or how much attention they want to pay to physical fitness.

    So I asked a question a couple of posts back ... How much time do think a volunteer should be required to commit to training per week?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And maybe we are. training needs to take place. But to expect a typical married volunteer with children to commit more 2-4 hours a week to training is simply unreasonable, and will do nothing but render the department cronically short of manpower.
    Tell that to his widow and children when he is faced with something that he has little or no knowledge about...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Unless you want to mandate gym time, or have annual physical performance requirements, it actually is the choice of each member as to how little or how much attention they want to pay to physical fitness.

    So I asked a question a couple of posts back ... How much time do think a volunteer should be required to commit to training per week?
    You dont have to go to a gym to stay in shape, just have some want to. And I will answer your question --- weekly is a **** poor way of tracking a vollys training. yearly is better, and I require first year guys to train a minimun of 100 hours the first year and then a MINIMUN of 60 hours.
    ?

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    guess I cant say p1ss ----minimum?
    Last edited by slackjawedyokel; 06-27-2012 at 04:53 PM. Reason: spelling
    ?

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Unless you want to mandate gym time, or have annual physical performance requirements, it actually is the choice of each member as to how little or how much attention they want to pay to physical fitness.

    So I asked a question a couple of posts back ... How much time do think a volunteer should be required to commit to training per week?
    In all seriousness, that's a fairly complex question. It's not the duration but the quality that's important. My present volunteer department (meaning not my career or part time) has over 2-3 hours a week and quite often its 4+ a week. Attendance is outstanding. The problem is the training sucks, and sucks horribly. They're there for close to 4 hours and its a complete waste. My previous department was an hour and a half to two hours a week but those 2 and a half hours were all business, no ****ing around, no bull****ting. It didn't always occur in house, often we went to structures in our district and drilled operations like deploying handlines up stairwells, discussed laddering...etc.

    My current volunteer department is fascinated with discussing fires from years back. Just two training nights and I could tell you damn near everything that went on at every fire they've had in 5 years. When I asked what the hydrant system was like in the 2 year old HIGHLY, HIGHLY luxurious subdivision, no one could answer me.

    So how long should they commit? Enough. You can use that to discredit me how ever you want but just apply a little logic. It takes a few hours for my former volly to train because I'd say its about as big of a district you could have without truly needing staffed stations. Other departments with less than 500 total structures and one fire every few years could get away with less. With that being said, I've always preached that the slowest departments should be the most effectively trained, there is nothing else to do. Regardless if you are compensated, your neighbors and community depend on you and you should give them the absolute BEST you are capable of. Things happen, I miss every third training night because I'm on shift. I've called in when my other two (very fire busy) departments destroyed every ounce of energy left. I'm not saying I should be excused because I'm career, but it's not the worst reason to miss.

    No matter what you say, you are working on the hypothetical belief that stricter standards will hurt you. I'm telling you it works and it works beautifully. When guys see that the training matters, they make more of an effort to attend. We (steering committee) increased training standards partially, the men actually requested to deepen the increases.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Tell that to his widow and children when he is faced with something that he has little or no knowledge about...
    Same question .. What would you then consider an acceptable amount of training time per week for a volunteer?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  8. #28
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Again, you're fixated on concrete SOPS, blanket statements, black and white solutions. It isn't like that in the real world. 30 minutes a week of true, quality, department improving training is far better than 2 hours of cooking and eating and drinking and discussing pick up trucks. Don't focus on time, focus on building better firefighters. Even if you don't think you'll ever do above a 24' ladder raise, train on it, eliminate the need for a 2 or 3 firefighter carry. You claim low numbers, make each firefighter solitarily effective enough to mitigate that problem. It's not difficult, thousands of departments get it.
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    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    In all seriousness, that's a fairly complex question. It's not the duration but the quality that's important. My present volunteer department (meaning not my career or part time) has over 2-3 hours a week and quite often its 4+ a week. Attendance is outstanding. The problem is the training sucks, and sucks horribly. They're there for close to 4 hours and its a complete waste. My previous department was an hour and a half to two hours a week but those 2 and a half hours were all business, no ****ing around, no bull****ting. It didn't always occur in house, often we went to structures in our district and drilled operations like deploying handlines up stairwells, discussed laddering...etc.

    My current volunteer department is fascinated with discussing fires from years back. Just two training nights and I could tell you damn near everything that went on at every fire they've had in 5 years. When I asked what the hydrant system was like in the 2 year old HIGHLY, HIGHLY luxurious subdivision, no one could answer me.

    So how long should they commit? Enough. You can use that to discredit me how ever you want but just apply a little logic. It takes a few hours for my former volly to train because I'd say its about as big of a district you could have without truly needing staffed stations. Other departments with less than 500 total structures and one fire every few years could get away with less. With that being said, I've always preached that the slowest departments should be the most effectively trained, there is nothing else to do. Regardless if you are compensated, your neighbors and community depend on you and you should give them the absolute BEST you are capable of. Things happen, I miss every third training night because I'm on shift. I've called in when my other two (very fire busy) departments destroyed every ounce of energy left. I'm not saying I should be excused because I'm career, but it's not the worst reason to miss.

    No matter what you say, you are working on the hypothetical belief that stricter standards will hurt you. I'm telling you it works and it works beautifully. When guys see that the training matters, they make more of an effort to attend. We (steering committee) increased training standards partially, the men actually requested to deepen the increases.
    Let me tell you a story ...

    When I joined my previous VFD in about 1989, we had close to 60 members, some of who made calls, some of who made training, and some who rarely made either.

    In 1992, the Cheif retired and the then Asst. Chief was promoted.

    He immediattly required that all members make a minumum of 75% of the training and 12 hours of ourside training per year. Within a year, membership dropped to 30. However. the 30 we had were trained and prepared to operate, and as a department, we functioned much smoother, more professionally and far more effectivly on the fireground.

    Training was effective and generally accomplished something every night.

    It was the best thing in the world for the department. And today they are still benefitting from the change.

    Last year, the former Chief of my VFD made a decsion to start enforc ing training requirements. Within 6 months, 25-35% of the members were let go for not making training. Training ebcame harder, and more demanding, and the requiremnents were increased for firerfighter through officers.

    The old Chief retired in Decemeber, and the new Chief has continued the progress,a nd in fact, has requested that myself and the captain responsible for training push them even harder.

    And today, though much smaller, is more effective than it was 2 years ago.

    At this point I would say that our training program is very effectiev and right now is concerntrating on the basics ... getting line on the ground quickly, hose handling, pump operations, search, self-rescue and ladder ops. Wwe have the luxury of not running EMS and not doing any vehicle extrication, so we have the time to be able to concentrate on the fireground basics.

    So yes, there are cases where increasing training requirements and thinning the herd, so to speak, does work. I have seen it happen.

    That being said there are departments where that will not work, and will simply make the department less effective. I know of several area departments with primarily older membership where pushing will force them to retire, leaving a very, very limited number of younger personnel.

    What would pushing tougher training requirements do to my current combo department? I'm really not sure but I know it would drive some of the older members out and may drive some of the career members from other departments who volunteer for us to leave as well. Would we still be functional? yes, but we would not have the numbers and be far less able to handle multiple calls.

    Right now the training at my combo department is good. We just finsihed a FFI class which was partly intergrared into weekly training.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-27-2012 at 05:31 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Dang LA -my little hick STATE mandates 16 hours a year (down from 24) of state certifed outside training.
    ?

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    [QUOTE=slackjawedyokel;1332864]Dang LA -my little hick STATE mandates 16 hours a year (down from 24) of state certifed outside training.[/QUOTE

    That's great.

    LA requires zero hours of training.

    That being said my combo department requires attendence at one training a month (should be more) and my VFD requires 2-3 a month (which isn't bad)
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #32
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Same question .. What would you then consider an acceptable amount of training time per week for a volunteer?
    One to two hours per week with one saturday a month. It doesn't have to be complicated.. street drills, hazmat recognition and identification, SCBA emegency procedures, search and rescue drills.

    As far as losing membership.. when they joined they made a committment. I they are there for the fun stuff like BBQ fundraisers or just for the Tshirt.. you don't need them, as they obviously don't need the FD.
    Chenzo likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    All bull**** aside, I've asked many times but you never really give me an answer. Why does it have to be mandated for you to do it? I'm not saying go balls to the wall but try and push for stricter standards and see where that takes you. Losing a guy because you want him to be prepared isn't a real loss to your department, no matter what your manpower looks like. Thats why you can't seem to get the support/firefighter problem through your head. Keep your support operations, keep your exterior only guys, but not at the expense of your firefighters. Your priority is firefighters, support and exterior only guys are a luxury.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    One to two hours per week with one saturday a month. It doesn't have to be complicated.. street drills, hazmat recognition and identification, SCBA emegency procedures, search and rescue drills.

    As far as losing membership.. when they joined they made a committment. I they are there for the fun stuff like BBQ fundraisers or just for the Tshirt.. you don't need them, as they obviously don't need the FD.
    I have no issues at all with training every week for 2-3 hour with a minimum standard of 75%. I have no problem with that as to me that should be the norm.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    All bull**** aside, I've asked many times but you never really give me an answer. Why does it have to be mandated for you to do it? I'm not saying go balls to the wall but try and push for stricter standards and see where that takes you. Losing a guy because you want him to be prepared isn't a real loss to your department, no matter what your manpower looks like. Thats why you can't seem to get the support/firefighter problem through your head. Keep your support operations, keep your exterior only guys, but not at the expense of your firefighters. Your priority is firefighters, support and exterior only guys are a luxury.
    All BS aside, you are the one that wants to mandate.

    You want to mandate FFI as the state minimum. I want to leave firefighter training minimum in the hand of each fire department to dictate where they want their firefighters to be in terms of training. How much training they want should be left up to the department to decide, not mandated by the state.

    You stated that firefighters should be fit as a requirement .. a mandate. I stated that firefighter fitness is a personal choice and there should not be department level fitness requirements they have to meet in order to operate as a firefighter. The department should encourage and promote fitness, but not mandate a specific level.

    As far as training, my combo department has a skills checklist that mirrors FFI with the skills that apply to our operations. That is training program that functions well and there is absolutely no need to change it.

    My volunteer department now utilizes a 42-hour rookie class, which again, will work very well for our situation. That is a fine, working minimum.

    I encourage FFI but there is no pressing need for a firefighter on either one of my departments to have it. None.

    The fact is there are absolutely no issues with support personnel and exterior firefighters. Both of those classifications have zero impact on the interior folks. All three classifications are equally important and none, and I mean NONE, are more important in terms of fireground operations than the other two. Support and exterior members are not and never will be a luxury - they are a critical and essential component of our fireground operations an equal in operational importance to our interior personnel.

    There will always be that core that wants to be the best and will make the VFD the focal point of their lives. yes, push them and strongly encourage, but even for them, don't mandate minimum training as they will voluntarily exceed that on tier own

    However, that is not the case with many of those on the VFD, and never will be. There are roles for everyone on the fireground, including those who are not the hard chargers. There are members that can and want to participate in firefighting and not go interior to the guy that just wants to drive and pump the engine and the tanker. Pushing people beyond where they want to be because you think they should be better trained and more prepared, will simply make them quit, and no, that it is not a good thing for the department. It leaves the department one person short to fulfill whatever role they were fulfilling. yes, I encourage them to be the best they can be but I also understand that for most volunteers, this is a small part of their lives and many of them are quite happy with a limited role, and maybe not being the best they can be at it. And that's ok, as anything they do helps the department, either on or off the fireground.



    You are the one that seems to want to put demands and mandates on our firefighters, not me.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-27-2012 at 08:53 PM.
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    I agree 100%. The 3 fires a year xyz department faces gives it absolutely zero insight into my departments methods and operations. My fairly busy department has little understanding of Detroit or youngstown's situation and methods. Safety is a priority, not a handcuff. There exist, believe it or not, departments who are constantly going interior and aren't dying enmasse. Safety isn't playing armchair quarterback when we lose a guy, it's doing all you can to prevent it from happening to you or your crew through constant learning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    All BS aside, you are the one that wants to mandate.

    You want to mandate FFI as the state minimum. I want to leave firefighter training minimum in the hand of each fire department to dictate where they want their firefighters to be in terms of training. How much training they want should be left up to the department to decide, not mandated by the state.

    You stated that firefighters should be fit as a requirement .. a mandate. I stated that firefighter fitness is a personal choice and there should not be department level fitness requirements they have to meet in order to operate as a firefighter. The department should encourage and promote fitness, but not mandate a specific level.

    As far as training, my combo department has a skills checklist that mirrors FFI with the skills that apply to our operations. That is training program that functions well and there is absolutely no need to change it.

    My volunteer department now utilizes a 42-hour rookie class, which again, will work very well for our situation. That is a fine, working minimum.

    I encourage FFI but there is no pressing need for a firefighter on either one of my departments to have it. None.

    The fact is there are absolutely no issues with support personnel and exterior firefighters. Both of those classifications have zero impact on the interior folks. All three classifications are equally important and none, and I mean NONE, are more important in terms of fireground operations than the other two. Support and exterior members are not and never will be a luxury - they are a critical and essential component of our fireground operations an equal in operational importance to our interior personnel.

    There will always be that core that wants to be the best and will make the VFD the focal point of their lives. yes, push them and strongly encourage, but even for them, don't mandate minimum training as they will voluntarily exceed that on tier own

    However, that is not the case with many of those on the VFD, and never will be. There are roles for everyone on the fireground, including those who are not the hard chargers. There are members that can and want to participate in firefighting and not go interior to the guy that just wants to drive and pump the engine and the tanker. Pushing people beyond where they want to be because you think they should be better trained and more prepared, will simply make them quit, and no, that it is not a good thing for the department. It leaves the department one person short to fulfill whatever role they were fulfilling. yes, I encourage them to be the best they can be but I also understand that for most volunteers, this is a small part of their lives and many of them are quite happy with a limited role, and maybe not being the best they can be at it. And that's ok, as anything they do helps the department, either on or off the fireground.



    You are the one that seems to want to put demands and mandates on our firefighters, not me.
    You continue to show the rest of us why you and your department is a joke and a disgrace to the fire service.

    Let's remove minimum standards, mandates, and requirements for all professions. After all you believe they are just so much nonsense and not necessary.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Lafe- to answer your question briefly, I want mandates because of people like you. When allowed to do what they want, some don't want to do anything. If they do make a standard, it's to satisfy the lowest common denominator. That does absolutely nothing to boost the image of volunteers in this state. I'll tell you with first hand experience that there are some truly horrifying volunteer departments that are more of a liability than anything else. I also have the pleasure of working with volunteer departments that work so well that even Scfire would be amazed. The only difference is one department sets a standard for excellence and nothing less, the other is a drinking club with a firefighting problem. Their trucks are filthy, bottles low, packs have dead batteries but they have the prettiest little traditional leather helmets, their brand new station is disgusting, and one of their two pumpers hasn't started in 6 months but they outfitted it with a brand new e-light system. All on grant money. I think it's bull****. Don't waste that money on people with no desire to utilize it properly. Make a standard, don't want to meet it and that's ok but have fun trying to get money for your new toys. I see nothing wrong with having to prove your men know what they're before handed tons of money. "But I'm just a volunteer" is the most infuriating statement in the world. I work two departments and I still make my training and do my duties at my volly and still enjoy my home life. I feel no pity for people who are to busy to uphold their part of the bargain, want to be a firefighter, great but don't embarrass my passion and profession for attention.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Lafe- to answer your question briefly, I want mandates because of people like you. When allowed to do what they want, some don't want to do anything. If they do make a standard, it's to satisfy the lowest common denominator. That does absolutely nothing to boost the image of volunteers in this state. I'll tell you with first hand experience that there are some truly horrifying volunteer departments that are more of a liability than anything else. I also have the pleasure of working with volunteer departments that work so well that even Scfire would be amazed. The only difference is one department sets a standard for excellence and nothing less, the other is a drinking club with a firefighting problem. Their trucks are filthy, bottles low, packs have dead batteries but they have the prettiest little traditional leather helmets, their brand new station is disgusting, and one of their two pumpers hasn't started in 6 months but they outfitted it with a brand new e-light system. All on grant money. I think it's bull****. Don't waste that money on people with no desire to utilize it properly. Make a standard, don't want to meet it and that's ok but have fun trying to get money for your new toys. I see nothing wrong with having to prove your men know what they're before handed tons of money. "But I'm just a volunteer" is the most infuriating statement in the world. I work two departments and I still make my training and do my duties at my volly and still enjoy my home life. I feel no pity for people who are to busy to uphold their part of the bargain, want to be a firefighter, great but don't embarrass my passion and profession for attention.
    Funny thing is I agree with just about everything that you said.

    The only difference ia that I don't believe state mandated training standards will solve the problems that you described. Given what you described, more than likely they would either ignore them all together or find a way to pencil-whip around the classes and testing. I do beleive that every department needs to develop it's own training standards, or adopt an existing standard such as FFI, and hold thier personnel accountable to meeting that standard, and encouraging them to exceed it.

    As far as "people like me", you don't have a clue about what I beleive or stand for. I fully believe in relevant, applicable training both initially and on an frequent, on-going basis for every firefighter. That is why I supported the 50-hour minimum over FFI as proposed a few years ago by the LSFA as the state minimum, even though I had few problems with the concept. It was relevant and applicable to rural, volunteer departments, and was reasonable in it's time frame, and still gave larger departments the flexibility to utilize FFI or FFII as thier in-house minimum if they choose to do so.

    That's why I taught the 1403 class at my VFD this year, and then developed another set of modules composed of topics not covered in 1403 and incorporated them together as our new 42-hour rookie class.

    That's why I just spent my freetime teaching roughly 50% of a FFI/FFII class at my combo department.

    And that is why I offer courses to departments in both my combo and volunteer parishes, and generally teach 8-10 of them every year ranging from 3 hours to 12 hours.

    You and I are more alike than you think. The difference is that while I do have standards that I want firefighters to meet, i beleive that there needs to be some flexability given not only the department's circumstances but the circumstances, and yes, the limitations, of the members themselves when evaluating thier dedication and commitment to the fire service.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    "But I'm just a volunteer" is the most infuriating statement in the world.
    Amen, Brother.
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