Like Tree130Likes

Thread: The danger of LAFE's way of thinking

  1. #51
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Hopefully the future will bring amsarter fire service that understands that you cannot apply career standards to the volunteer fires ervice as the time simply does not exist for them to meet those standards.
    This statement is so remarkable one has to admire its stupidity as it is simple. I pray this isn't the norm in the VFD ranks.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  2. #52
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    It's always funny that bobby thinks volunteers should be held to a different standard in terms of expectations but then, in the same breath, thinks there's absolutely no difference between the two positions. You can't cry for equality and then demand exclusivity. I see no difference in my duty no matter if I'm on the clock or not, there is no difference in what I am expected to do. Being said, why should there be a difference in standards and training? Sure, it's easy to say "but you're paid to train" which is true but I'm paid the same amount to sleep or to fight fire which is exactly the rate of how I'm compensated at my volly.
    Where did I say there was no difference?

    I have always stated that career and volunteers and not the same, and that career members should be held to a higher standard, as it is their job, and they are paid to train.

    To say that we should have the same expectations in terms of training for volunteers and career is simply unreasonable.

    And never have a I cried for equality, as again a career member should be better trained than a typical volunteer, and will in most places, run to more incidents have as such, be more experienced than a typical volunteer. Most volunteers recognize that, and understand that they likely are not the equal of a typical career member in a busy or moderately busy department.

    They certainly both are firefighters and should be called as such, but they bring various levels of training and experience along with that title.

    As I have said before, when career members attend the academy without pay, and are required to make all of their training hours off the clock, when not on duty, and have the same access to training, I'll be more than happy to state that volunteer and career members should have the identical levels of training.

    Until that happens, the playing field is unequal, and to expect the same training levels from career and volunteer members is nothing short of unreasonable.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-29-2012 at 10:32 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  3. #53
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Skaneateles, NY
    Posts
    88

    Default

    I'm making popcorn. Who wants some?
    Weruj1 likes this.

  4. #54
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Where did I say there was no difference?

    I have always stated that career and volunteers and not the same, and that career members should be held to a higher standard, as it is their job, and they are paid to train.
    You're correct. Professional firefighters do the job, and the vollies in your department only pretend to do the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To say that we should have the same expectations in terms of training for volunteers and career is simply unreasonable.
    Only if one is a pretend firefighter such as yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And never have a I cried for equality, as again a career member should be better trained than a typical volunteer, and will in most places, run to more incidents have as such, be more experienced than a typical volunteer. Most volunteers recognize that, and understand that they likely are not the equal of a typical career member in a busy or moderately busy department.
    Could you quantify this statement with something other than your worthless opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They certainly both are firefighters and should be called as such, but they bring various levels of training and experience along with that title.
    In your case, they both certainly are NOT firefighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I have said before, when career members attend the academy without pay, and are required to make all of their training hours off the clock, when not on duty, and have the same access to training, I'll be more than happy to state that volunteer and career members should have the identical levels of training.
    Which is why you are a disgrace to the fire service.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Until that happens, the playing field is unequal, and to expect the same training levels from career and volunteer members is nothing short of unreasonable.
    You may view the playing field as uneven, however the game is the same for both.

    You continue to reveal your idiocy as it relates to what being a firefighter means to those of us who took the profession seriously.
    Chenzo likes this.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  5. #55
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Poconos, Pa
    Posts
    796

    Default

    There really is no excuse for a volunteer to not be as trained or be willing to train to the same standard as a career firefighter..

    I'm married, and I try to go to every type of training that I can go to..as most volunteer training is held on nights and weekends, as most of the instructors do this as a second job. If I wasn't married would I attend more training? absolutely, but I have to factor in bills, cost of gas, and the scheduling and locations of the classes that I want to take, but whenever possible, I go and commit myself. When I'm home I go on various websites to read about tactics and I'll even go on YouTube..yes..YouTube and watch how other fire departments conduct operations, good or bad. I try to go out of district sometimes to get a better grasp on basics, we don't have much hydrants where I am from, so I took an engine company class where they run off hydrants, the dept used minute man loads, we used flat loads..learn new things or brush up on basic skills. Do I train every week? no, do I spend 24 hours a month or so training or drilling, or learning? probably more sometimes. My wife understands that I love to do this, and understands that my dream is to be working at a career dept someday, and that although that might not happen, and I'll be "just a volly" that doesn't mean that I shouldn't train as best I can, because she understands the gap in capabilities at our FH and through out the volunteer service in general, and she does not have an issue with me learning how to do my job in order to better protect myself, and others. So, sometimes she gets antsy when I'm gone, and she got mad when I went to the state fire academy for a week, and doesn't like that I'm going to the national fire academy on a weekend when she isn't working..but it is what it is, because she sees my passion, and understands that training is a must.

    I have no time for people who don't train or drill, people whose gear sits on their rack and collects dust in between "big ones"..if you don't drill on our equipment and keep yourself familiar how do I expect to trust you when we work together? I want to have absolute faith in my partner when I go into an IDLH atmosphere, on a roof, or if im cutting a car..if I don't trust you, I'm not going to work with you. it is what it is, I don't care about race, sex,religion..none of that..If you don't put the work in and show me your capable I am not leaving my life in your hands..sorry. If you have other commitments, a second job, a new kid being born, whatever..be a man and step down and focus on whats important. I would re-evaluate my commitment to the FD if I had more important family commitments because I don't want to get rusty because firefighting is a perishable skill, and risk my life or the life of others.

    There is no excuse not to train unless you come from the middle of nowhere Alaska or something, and even then there is the internet to get drill ideas from and you can train to a standard.

    Being paid to train is an added incentive, however, taking something you learned and applying on the fire ground is priceless, weather you train for free or not.
    rescue_1 likes this.

  6. #56
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Again, as was stated before, on the volunteer side it's not so much quantity as it is quality, And maybe your department is getting quality training, but from your ramblings on here I'm not seeing it. And maybe I'm throwing situations I've been in, into this discussion too much, but I've been to more "trainings" than I can count that consisted of "Well, lets go drive the trucks around, just to get them ran." That's not quantity, and it sure as hell ain't quality.

    I fully agree.

    However I disagree with your statement re: my cmbo department. Wwe could argue about this alld ay but they are aggressive and effective. The training, for the most part is relevant and generally effective.

    Have I been to the type of training you are referring to? Sure as hell have, and yes, it's been on every department I have been in plus a couple of classes that I have taken at regional fire schools. I will admit that probably a few of my classes that didn't go quite as planned would fall into that catagory as well. On the department level, that type of training on a consistant basis will drive away members that want to train and learn, and will generally only draw in those that don't.

    On my volunteer side, the training within the previous 12 months has taken a completly different turn. While in the past, from what i have been told, some of the training was worthwhile, much of it was not. The training captain and myself have worked very hard to take it in a very different direction, and from the complasining that we are hearing more and more often about it being too physical and too tiring, we seem to be headed in the right direction. Skills are improving and the time needed to accomplish those skills are decreasing. We still have a little bit to go on getting the basic skills where we want them, but by the end of the year, we should be able to start working on mayday operations ans some advanced stuff.



    As much time as it takes to make them proficient in fire ground operations, and maintain that proficiency. If joining the local VFD takes too much time away from someones family, then maybe they should quit. I don't want a half cocked team of volunteers coming to put out a fire at my house, or to pull my family from a burning car. I want a dedicated group of volunteers, who understand that it takes sacrifice to do what they signed on to do, to come help me when I need it.

    And there is where we disagree.

    In the past,I have given up a lot of time with my wife and kids to train. Was it worth it? maybe, but it definatly played a role in my first marriage not working out. Am I complaining? No. But there can be a cost and that probably plays a role into how I feel about demanding too much time from volunteer personnel for training.

    It's easy to say they should be trained to level X, but at what point does the need to train outweigh the loss of manpower due to training requirements?

    Should they know the basics of residental fire operations? Hell yes, as those are 90% of our incidents.Does that mean they have to be interior? No, and IMO that should be a choice that any volunteer has without being turned away from the department if they feel that the time committment to be interior is too much for them, oe thier famalies, to handle.

    Commercial operations? Probably, yes, but in small community with limited resources that simply may be an area trains to make a quick search and then goes defensive all, or the majority of the time.

    Bottom line is there is a point where the volunteer fire service in most communities has to say we've gone far enough, and we simply can't add any more disciplines to what we do if they feel the training time to handle those responsbilities don't exist within thier departments.

    As an example my VFD does no EMS, no vehicle extrication, no technical rescue and no haz-mat beyond awareness simply because we have come to the conclusion that the time does not exist to adequatly train them to do the job.



    It's reasonable to expect the people that are showing up to my emergency to be trained and proficient in the operations that need to be performed at that incident. And this is the point where we differ, because my definition of "operations that need to performed at that incident" and your definition are very, very different. Your definition lies somewhere in the area of keep it contained so it doesn't spread. Mine lies on the other side of the fence. Maximize rescue of viable victims, and save as much property as possible.

    Those operations are also resource and manpower based.

    As an example, my combo department averages 23 career and volunteer members for a structure fire, which gives us the ability to perform some aggressive firefighting, especially in commercial structures, when conditions permit and the building justifies it, so we train to do so. That response also gives the ability to have our own RIT, so we train as such on it.

    In addition, we are also able to put a lot of water on-scene, which supports that aggressiveness.

    My currently VFD puts 6-7 members on the scene, and that will likely drop as we just lost one of our most active captain to relocation. In addition, a majority of the firefighters are VERY inexperienced. As a result, our training is focused on rapid exterior operations and knockdown, followed up by interior operations when additional personnel from our department or mutual aid arrives, as much as interior operations without the exterior hit. We train them to think defensive first, due to staffing, and then if fire and manpower allows, go interior. You may argue about that being the wrong approach, but it's the approach we have chosen until the manpower situation improves.

    And because of staffing, exterior or defensive operations at commercial buildings from arrival is stressed. like it or not, that is the training path we have chosen due to manpower, and until the situation improves, that is the direction we have to go for the safety of our people.



    The future HAS brought a safer fire service. But a safer fire service doesn't mean that it's not full of risk or danger. And again, why should someone protected by volunteers have a better chance of having their house burned down than by someone protected by a career department. You seem so eager to just settle with time being a valid excuse to not be trained and proficient in what you do. I just can not and will not accept that.
    The fact is that in most places there is a higher risk of losing a home in a volunteer district then a career dsitrict, if for no other reason than response time.

    I'm not eager to settle but I understand there is a finite amount of time that a person has to volunteer, and training can only take a portion of that. Only so much can be covered in that time, and because of that, the training has to be 100% relevant and applicable, and in some cases, choices as to what you will and will not train the members to do. Would I love to be able to train the personnel in my VFD on RIT, vehicle extrication and commercial operations? Hell yes! But I also know that right now, and likely for the foresable future, the time simply does not exist for that to happen.

    So yes, as department, we have limited capabilities, and we accept that because the time simply does not exist for the situation to be any different.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #57
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Poconos, Pa
    Posts
    796

    Default

    I hate that people look down on volunteers, and sometimes, even career people look down on volunteers. I hate when we run mutual aid and there is nothing left but a foundation..because the first due dept "has to much pride, and wants to do the job themselves" but realizes they are in over their head. I hate when I see Volly's with beards, and they think that is ok, but if they get killed on the job and the insurance company goes, hmm..is that facial hair NFPA compliant, and they don't pay his family squat, but that beard made him look really cool. or when a volunteer "truck driver" does not know what he needs to know operating a pump and cavitates the pump and then there is no water going on the fire and another house is lost, ehh, protect exposures..only thing is, that home owners life, is that house, everything he has is in that house, his clothes, his nick knacks, his photos of his grandfather in WWII, maybe even a pet..those things ARE his LIFE, so just because we aren't saving a baby every call, does not mean that we shouldn't put the same effort into making an aggressive interior assault to save the homeowner's LIFE. If my home caught on fire and the fire dept let a room and contents fire turn into a 30 foot by 30 foot by 25 foot fireball and didn't call mutual aid when they only showed up on scene with 3 or 4 good ole' boys I'd be enraged..my head would spin. If you are afraid of fire, or of heat, or of falling through a floor or of doing a hang and drop out of a window because the room is showing pre-flashover conditions and you have no exit route....then go work at Lowe's....When I get on scene, I move with a purpose, I'm not afraid, I'm pre-planning on the way in the apparatus, I do my own little size up and I attack the fire..period..because that is what I would want to see if my house or my friend's or family's house was on fire. Until that thought process is shared by EVERY volunteer house in the country, then we will continue to be a laughing stock amongst a fair share of the civilians, and even some of our own brothers.

  8. #58
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Poconos, Pa
    Posts
    796

    Default

    but, then again...if you don't train, and aren't confident in your abilities...well..it is what it is. At least we saved the neighbor's siding; but then again, if we got there earlier, and made a knock when it was a room and contents, we wouldn't have that problem.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlLzt...eature=related

    prime example..hope the link works.

  9. #59
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    I hate that people look down on volunteers, and sometimes, even career people look down on volunteers.. I hate when I deal with arrogant volunteers that look at me and go "I am a volunteer, I don't need to get PAID to be a firefighter." Like that makes them better somehow. I hate when we run mutual aid and there is nothing left but a foundation..because the first due dept "has to much pride, and wants to do the job themselves" but realizes they are in over their head. I hate that too because then we spend hours wasting time soaking down a pile of smoldering rubble. I hate when I see Volly's with beards, and they think that is ok, but if they get killed on the job and the insurance company goes, hmm..is that facial hair NFPA compliant, and they don't pay his family squat, but that beard made him look really cool. I agree with you, if you want to be a firefighter, lose the beard. or when a volunteer "truck driver" does not know what he needs to know operating a pump and cavitates the pump and then there is no water going on the fire and another house is lost been there, seen that, dan sad, ehh, protect exposures..only thing is, that home owners life, is that house, everything he has is in that house, his clothes, his nick knacks, his photos of his grandfather in WWII, maybe even a pet..those things ARE his LIFE, so just because we aren't saving a baby every call, does not mean that we shouldn't put the same effort into making an aggressive interior assault to save the homeowner's LIFE. Hallelujah BROTHER! I can't tell you how many ties I have been thanked for saving the family photo album, or that special momento, or whatever. If my home caught on fire and the fire dept let a room and contents fire turn into a 30 foot by 30 foot by 25 foot fireball and didn't call mutual aid when they only showed up on scene with 3 or 4 good ole' boys I'd be enraged..my head would spin. As would I. People should be outraged at that nonsense. If you are afraid of fire, or of heat, or of falling through a floor or of doing a hang and drop out of a window because the room is showing pre-flashover conditions and you have no exit route....then go work at Lowe's....Indeed ths job is not for everyone. Too bad they can't admit that to themselves. When I get on scene, I move with a purpose, I'm not afraid, I'm pre-planning on the way in the apparatus, I do my own little size up and I attack the fire..period..because that is what I would want to see if my house or my friend's or family's house was on fire. Until that thought process is shared by EVERY volunteer house in the country, then we will continue to be a laughing stock amongst a fair share of the civilians, and even some of our own brothers. You understand the job, the mission, why people call us in the first place. Nice work Brother.
    Stay safe and keep up the fight.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  10. #60
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    I hate that people look down on volunteers, and sometimes, even career people look down on volunteers. I hate when we run mutual aid and there is nothing left but a foundation..because the first due dept "has to much pride, and wants to do the job themselves" but realizes they are in over their head. I hate when I see Volly's with beards, and they think that is ok, but if they get killed on the job and the insurance company goes, hmm..is that facial hair NFPA compliant, and they don't pay his family squat, but that beard made him look really cool. or when a volunteer "truck driver" does not know what he needs to know operating a pump and cavitates the pump and then there is no water going on the fire and another house is lost, ehh, protect exposures..only thing is, that home owners life, is that house, everything he has is in that house, his clothes, his nick knacks, his photos of his grandfather in WWII, maybe even a pet..those things ARE his LIFE, so just because we aren't saving a baby every call, does not mean that we shouldn't put the same effort into making an aggressive interior assault to save the homeowner's LIFE. If my home caught on fire and the fire dept let a room and contents fire turn into a 30 foot by 30 foot by 25 foot fireball and didn't call mutual aid when they only showed up on scene with 3 or 4 good ole' boys I'd be enraged..my head would spin. If you are afraid of fire, or of heat, or of falling through a floor or of doing a hang and drop out of a window because the room is showing pre-flashover conditions and you have no exit route....then go work at Lowe's....When I get on scene, I move with a purpose, I'm not afraid, I'm pre-planning on the way in the apparatus, I do my own little size up and I attack the fire..period..because that is what I would want to see if my house or my friend's or family's house was on fire. Until that thought process is shared by EVERY volunteer house in the country, then we will continue to be a laughing stock amongst a fair share of the civilians, and even some of our own brothers.
    Excellent post. Unfortunately, the jokes like Bossier Bobby don't get it. They want all the fanfare but none of the responsibility that goes with the job and the title.

    And it is for that reason many regard the fire service as a second priority when it comes to resources.
    Chenzo likes this.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  11. #61
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Poconos, Pa
    Posts
    796

    Default

    and as far as firefighters not doing things they aren't comfortable with..I HATE..with a passion ladders..I hate heights, climbing ladders..but I've climbed a 35 foot into a 4th story window for training, and I know that if I get the job im going for, I'm going to be doing alot of things that require heights..something that puts me out of my comfort zone:but its part of the job and if my officer tells me to go up onto a roof and cut a hole to vent, or go into a 3rd story window and VES guess what I'm doing? yep, because its part of the job, and its my assignment and I have an obligation to my officer, to my crew, and to the civilians to do that to the best of my ability..I might not fly up the ladder, and I might be scared but I'm going to do it in a safe manner and accomplish the mission. sometimes you have to face fears and overcome them and it makes you a better person for it.

    And, on the topic of physical fitness, I studied for my NFPA 1006 core exam, while walking on a treadmill. I killed 2 birds with 1 stone.

    I'm not belittling anyone who doesn't have the same feelings as me, I respect everyone for what they are. I just wanted to add my 2 cents here.

    Everyone stay cool out there, and have a safe weekend, I'm going to flip a tractor tire in my driveway and hit it with a sledgehammer..
    Weruj1 and DeputyMarshal like this.

  12. #62
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,087

    Default

    Do you think they have a bobbette ,that is the designated bottleturneroner guy in bossier parish???
    ?

  13. #63
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    This thread started off with "my way of thinking" for inaction at a Canadian Mall Collapse.

    Now it seems that "LA Fire's way of thinking" is responsible for the lack of training by some volunteers departments nationwide.

    I never kn ew that I had such influence. Maybe I should go on a speaking tour.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #64
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Irwin, PA
    Posts
    226

    Default

    Let me put a little different spin on this since I am currently dealing with this situation myself. If you think that standards should be different for firefighters in volunteer fire departments, should training and con ed requirements for EMS, be it medic, EMT or whatever level you would like, be different for volunteers and paid personnel?
    Thomas Anthony, PE
    Structures Specialist PA-TF1 & PA-ST1
    Paramedic / Rescue Tech North Huntington Twp EMS
    The artist formerly known as Captain 10-2

    No, I am not a water rescue technician, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

  15. #65
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Poconos, Pa
    Posts
    796

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    This thread started off with "my way of thinking" for inaction at a Canadian Mall Collapse.

    Now it seems that "LA Fire's way of thinking" is responsible for the lack of training by some volunteers departments nationwide.

    I never kn ew that I had such influence. Maybe I should go on a speaking tour.
    This is just a discussion, on my end anyway..not trying to bash others just saying that there is no excuse for preparation i.e training..if you have other obligations, there is no shame in committing to a full time job or a second job or wife or kids..Firefighting is a major endeavor, weather it be career, volly,POC, or whatever. We are responsible for our actions, esp. in the age of social media where every thing we do can be seen on the news, or youtube. add to the fact that someone's life may depend on us because as everyone here knows, we are not only responsible for the safety of everyone who lives in our area, but all those who travel through our area....for some that could mean upwards of 100,000 or more depending on where you live. If you go fishing or hunting, no one depends on you to catch fish or shoot a deer for food, if you golf no one's life depends on you going X under par. If you can't commit to being a full fledged firefighter, there are administrative membership duties and things of that nature, and on the career side, your paycheck depends on how well you do your job.

    If your system works in your area..that's great, everyone's area is different, and everyone's fireground is different..but like your signature says "train to fight the fires you fight" key word being training.

  16. #66
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    I found this on the Beaverton Fire Department. From the information available this appears to be about the department in question:



    h all the problems that we in America are facing today with our day today troubles and wearies we now have terrorist who are tying to cause fear in our every day lives. Fear to travel or to gather in our nations malls or places of commerce.
    With all these things going on we all have been made aware of just how important The men and women of our fire and rescue are to us. Those of us that are blessed to live in a Country that has men and women who are willing to put all at risk for the people we love and our homes. We don’t have to live in a big City like New York or Washington DC. Even in small town America they are just a phone call away.
    In our part of small town America we have people that volunteer the same kind of services, The Beaverton volunteer fire department. I remember in the early 1970’s a small group of men and women getting together to form the Beaverton fire and rescue. I remember some of the first fire calls that were made. The Beaverton Fire dept. was first organized in the early 1970’s with only a few members and they were James Pickle, Cloves Cannon, Guy White and Frankie Guyton. The current fire dept. was formed in 1981 with Joe Brown as fire Chief.Members were Marion Brown, Charles and Joan Mosley, Bill and Eva Green, Frankie Guyton, Harrell And Sharon Cantrell, Sherman Hughs, Robert Hughs, Robert Taylor, Don Taylor, Ed McDonald, Willie B. Mosley, Kerry and Joyce White, Grice Webb. The present members are Charles Mosley, Heath Mosley, Joan Mosley, David Trentelman, Christy Trentelman, Myron Spence, Jenny Spence, Chris Spence, Raymond Spence, Jan Spence, Mike Cannon, Billy Pickle, Eddie Pickle, Freddie Pickle, Joe Mike Taylor, Bill Green, and Sherman Hughs.
    After a lot of hard work and plenty of paper work the Beaverton Fire dept is pretty well equipped for a small town. 16 sets of fall out gear, 8 SCBA,s and spare cylinders, 40 sections of hose, 7 nozzles, 1980 Grumman pumper, 1976 tanker truck with a 1500 gallon Tank and a 1976 Chev. Pumper and tanker with a 750 gallon tank. The Beaverton fire dept has responded to 227 fire calls from 1981 through 2003, 111 of these calls were structure fires. Not all homes can be saved from total destruction but for the ones that are, if only a few, makes it worth the effort. Not only do they keep our insurance cost down they make our Towns and Cities more attractive to industry and places of commerce and maybe even make us fell a little safer knowing that they are just a phone call away.
    Lets not forget the men and women that volunteer there time, day and night to serve use when we need there help. I haven’t had to call for your help, but I would like to just say to the Beaverton fire dept. (Thanks for being just a phone call away)


    32 year-old and 36-year old engines, and a 36 year old tanker.

    16 sets of "fall-out" gear, likely older.

    8 SCBAs, likely older.

    About 10 calls a year.

    That's what they got to work with.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-29-2012 at 06:18 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #67
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PATF1engineer View Post
    Let me put a little different spin on this since I am currently dealing with this situation myself. If you think that standards should be different for firefighters in volunteer fire departments, should training and con ed requirements for EMS, be it medic, EMT or whatever level you would like, be different for volunteers and paid personnel?
    Different situation.

    Most states have granted regulatory responsibility to a state agency to regulate and more importantly, license, ambulance transport.

    To the best of my knowledge, no state requires a license to operate as a fire department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-29-2012 at 06:27 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #68
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    As I have said before, when career members attend the academy without pay, and are required to make all of their training hours off the clock, when not on duty, and have the same access to training, I'll be more than happy to state that volunteer and career members should have the identical levels of training.

    Until that happens, the playing field is unequal, and to expect the same training levels from career and volunteer members is nothing short of unreasonable.
    And as I've said before, there are places in which career members do train off-duty and are not paid for that training. My area is one such place and career and volunteer departments have essentially the same access to training. Truthfully, the volunteers probably have better access because a lot of them host formal classes at their stations, but we don't always know the training is available.

  19. #69
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Poconos, Pa
    Posts
    796

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I found this on the Beaverton Fire Department. From the information available this appears to be about the department in question:



    h all the problems that we in America are facing today with our day today troubles and wearies we now have terrorist who are tying to cause fear in our every day lives. Fear to travel or to gather in our nations malls or places of commerce.
    With all these things going on we all have been made aware of just how important The men and women of our fire and rescue are to us. Those of us that are blessed to live in a Country that has men and women who are willing to put all at risk for the people we love and our homes. We don’t have to live in a big City like New York or Washington DC. Even in small town America they are just a phone call away.
    In our part of small town America we have people that volunteer the same kind of services, The Beaverton volunteer fire department. I remember in the early 1970’s a small group of men and women getting together to form the Beaverton fire and rescue. I remember some of the first fire calls that were made. The Beaverton Fire dept. was first organized in the early 1970’s with only a few members and they were James Pickle, Cloves Cannon, Guy White and Frankie Guyton. The current fire dept. was formed in 1981 with Joe Brown as fire Chief.Members were Marion Brown, Charles and Joan Mosley, Bill and Eva Green, Frankie Guyton, Harrell And Sharon Cantrell, Sherman Hughs, Robert Hughs, Robert Taylor, Don Taylor, Ed McDonald, Willie B. Mosley, Kerry and Joyce White, Grice Webb. The present members are Charles Mosley, Heath Mosley, Joan Mosley, David Trentelman, Christy Trentelman, Myron Spence, Jenny Spence, Chris Spence, Raymond Spence, Jan Spence, Mike Cannon, Billy Pickle, Eddie Pickle, Freddie Pickle, Joe Mike Taylor, Bill Green, and Sherman Hughs.
    After a lot of hard work and plenty of paper work the Beaverton Fire dept is pretty well equipped for a small town. 16 sets of fall out gear, 8 SCBA,s and spare cylinders, 40 sections of hose, 7 nozzles, 1980 Grumman pumper, 1976 tanker truck with a 1500 gallon Tank and a 1976 Chev. Pumper and tanker with a 750 gallon tank. The Beaverton fire dept has responded to 227 fire calls from 1981 through 2003, 111 of these calls were structure fires. Not all homes can be saved from total destruction but for the ones that are, if only a few, makes it worth the effort. Not only do they keep our insurance cost down they make our Towns and Cities more attractive to industry and places of commerce and maybe even make us fell a little safer knowing that they are just a phone call away.
    Lets not forget the men and women that volunteer there time, day and night to serve use when we need there help. I haven’t had to call for your help, but I would like to just say to the Beaverton fire dept. (Thanks for being just a phone call away)


    32 year-old and 36-year old engines, and a 36 year old tanker.

    16 sets of "fall-out" gear, likely older.

    8 SCBAs, likely older.

    About 10 calls a year.

    That's what they got to work with.
    We have an 06 KME engine, 02 ALF rescue,99 E-one 95' TL, 99 E-one/kenworth commercial cab squirt, a 1980 mack tanker, and a 2000 kenworth tanker, 40 or so sets of full turnout gear, 30 SCBAs and maybe 30 spare cylinders..We answer about 365 calls a year, 15-20 of those being dwelling fires.

    You don't need to go to a fire academy, or college that offers national certifications, I have the luxury or that because our officers are pro-training, you don't need an instructor or 30 new fire trucks or 100 SCBAs in order to provide real life training on scenarios that you face in your first due.

    Maybe they should consider grants? or fundraising perhaps to get more up to date equipment..

    I'm just saying, not having the newest best equipment is no excuse for not being prepared.

    Our county academy has a 1980 something ford grumman engine, Bucks County Comm. college, where firefighters from all over the country receive training, and instructors go all over the world does just fine with an old Mack CF engine..

  20. #70
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    We have an 06 KME engine, 02 ALF rescue,99 E-one 95' TL, 99 E-one/kenworth commercial cab squirt, a 1980 mack tanker, and a 2000 kenworth tanker, 40 or so sets of full turnout gear, 30 SCBAs and maybe 30 spare cylinders..We answer about 365 calls a year, 15-20 of those being dwelling fires.

    You don't need to go to a fire academy, or college that offers national certifications, I have the luxury or that because our officers are pro-training, you don't need an instructor or 30 new fire trucks or 100 SCBAs in order to provide real life training on scenarios that you face in your first due.

    Not argueing about that. We have no idea what training they do. My VFD has no fire training props, and we use our imagaiunations, and generally it works, to a limited extent.

    Maybe they should consider grants? or fundraising perhaps to get more up to date equipment..

    The community has 226 residents according to the latest census in 100 households. I highly doubt they ciould eveb come up with the 5% match for a new rig.

    Same with new SCBA at 5g per unit.


    I'm just saying, not having the newest best equipment is no excuse for not being prepared.

    There is a major difference between "not the newest equipment" and a 30 plus year old first due engine.

    Our county academy has a 1980 something ford grumman engine, Bucks County Comm. college, where firefighters from all over the country receive training, and instructors go all over the world does just fine with an old Mack CF engine..

    Big difference between an engine used for training and a engine used for response.
    Bottom line this is a very rural department with very, very limited funding and likely very limited manpower.

    If you want to bang them, so be it.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  21. #71
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Bottom line this is a very rural department with very, very limited funding and likely very limited manpower.

    If you want to bang them, so be it.
    Have no fear. I intend to continue to do exactly that. Especially given all the ammo you've provided.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  22. #72
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Bottom line this is a very rural department with very, very limited funding and likely very limited manpower.

    If you want to bang them, so be it.
    Wah wah wah --- LA -again , I can tell the poor rural FD horror stories with the best of them. I volunteered in very rural ARKANSAS starting in 1980. Electric blankets on our only "engine" till we built a pole barn. I can go on and on ----------But NEVER did we use our lack of funding as an excuse for not trying to be the best we could be. You may think you are helping people by making excuses, but you are doing them great harm. Were you raised by a tribe of the rainbow people ?
    ?

  23. #73
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,281

    Default

    The standard LA post:

    Blather blather blather. Smoke and mirrors. Excuse after excuse after excuse after excuse after excuse. Contradicting himself. Blather some more. End with a mutli-burst excuse megathon.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  24. #74
    Forum Member
    Chenzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Rural WI
    Posts
    1,253

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    This thread started off with "my way of thinking" for inaction at a Canadian Mall Collapse.

    Now it seems that "LA Fire's way of thinking" is responsible for the lack of training by some volunteers departments nationwide.

    I never kn ew that I had such influence. Maybe I should go on a speaking tour.
    The only speaking tour you should go on is one that tells people what a worthless pile of **** you are on a fire scene.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    "Because if you don't think you're good, nobody else will." -- DC Tom Laun (ret) Syracuse

  25. #75
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PATF1engineer View Post
    Let me put a little different spin on this since I am currently dealing with this situation myself. If you think that standards should be different for firefighters in volunteer fire departments, should training and con ed requirements for EMS, be it medic, EMT or whatever level you would like, be different for volunteers and paid personnel?
    I've already posed this question to him in other threads (more than once) and I see the response that you got from him is pretty much what I expected. Nothing but a song and dance response that evades actually answering the question. So, he's either too stupid to understand the fairly obvious point being made or he's well aware of the point being made, knows he's been busted and is just dodging and weaving trying to get out of answering it.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Danger
    By fender in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 09-21-2009, 03:43 PM
  2. Danger Will Robinson. Danger!
    By MalahatTwo7 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-20-2009, 01:47 PM
  3. Danger Zone
    By maverick1862 in forum Fire Wire
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-11-2003, 03:12 PM
  4. WARNING WARNING.. DANGER STAYBACK500 DANGER
    By MalahatTwo7 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 10-21-2003, 08:56 PM
  5. California Fire Danger
    By NJFFSA16 in forum Wildland Firefighting
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-19-2003, 01:31 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register