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Thread: The danger of LAFE's way of thinking

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Amen, Brother.
    And I agree with that as well.

    The trick is you simply can't demand the same training standards from volunteers as you do career personnel who are paid to train and attend classes.

    Training requirements and department responsibilities must be balanced v. the time ther typical volunteer has avaialble.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The only difference ia that I don't believe state mandated training standards will solve the problems that you described. Given what you described, more than likely they would either ignore them all together or find a way to pencil-whip around the classes and testing. I do beleive that every department needs to develop it's own training standards, or adopt an existing standard such as FFI, and hold thier personnel accountable to meeting that standard, and encouraging them to exceed it.
    Mandated training standards work in every conceivable profession. Medicine, law, piloting, and law enforcement.

    No reason why they won't be beneficial to the fire service.

    You continue to show why you and your department are a disgrace to real firefighters who did the job and didn't just wear the uniform.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Mandated training standards work in every conceivable profession. Medicine, law, piloting, and law enforcement.

    No reason why they won't be beneficial to the fire service.

    You continue to show why you and your department are a disgrace to real firefighters who did the job and didn't just wear the uniform.
    And again, the vast majority of the firefighters in this country do not do it as a "profession".

    You continue to show that you are .... naaaaaaaaaaaaa .... I'm going to stay above your level.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, the vast majority of the firefighters in this country do not do it as a "profession".
    It doesn't matter if it's done as a "profession." It doesn't matter if firefighting is what pays the bills or what you do to help your community. As a volunteer, or POC, you still need to be just as trained, have just as much knowledge (if not more, due to potentially low call volume), then a career department.

    A fire in a volunteer departments jurisdiction is hot, just the same as one in a career departments jurisdiction.

    So, we need to promote safety, especially in volunteer departments, because that isn't a firefighters primary job, and he has to feed his family. But, you're against mandated training, because it may cause you to lose members... Sooooo we'll just stand in the yard and watch it burn down instead?

    It's just unbelievable to read some of your posts, and scarier yet to think that there's a potential that you actually BELIEVE what you type... God save us all if that's what the future of the fire service is going to bring.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    It doesn't matter if it's done as a "profession." It doesn't matter if firefighting is what pays the bills or what you do to help your community. As a volunteer, or POC, you still need to be just as trained, have just as much knowledge (if not more, due to potentially low call volume), then a career department.

    So when do you suggest the volunteer members get the same training as career personnel, who get it while being paid to attend the academy M-f 8-5 for 12-24 weeks and get it while on-shift at the station? How much time should that volunteer take away from his/her family to meet those same requirements that a career member is being paid to meet?

    What exactly is reasonable?


    A fire in a volunteer departments jurisdiction is hot, just the same as one in a career departments jurisdiction.

    Yes, and there may be times when a volunteer department may have to back off and not intervene, or intervene in a defensive manner, as compared to a career department which may be able to intervene in a more offensive manner given increased training.

    So, we need to promote safety, especially in volunteer departments, because that isn't a firefighters primary job, and he has to feed his family. But, you're against mandated training, because it may cause you to lose members... Sooooo we'll just stand in the yard and watch it burn down instead?

    If you cut your membership by 25% due to increased training requirements there are many small VDs that currently have 10-15 active members that may now have no choice but to stand in the yard and let it burn down due to the reduced manpower caused by increased training requirements.

    I am against mandated training levels because there is often material that simply does not apply to rural VFDs, and having to train on that uneeded crap takes time away from the stuff they need to train on that often is not part of the standard. I beleive in relevant and applicable training for the district and the hazards, designed by the district within a set of mandated criteria (example: Class will discuss all applicable water supplies in the fire district) not one size fits all mandated canned training programs.

    Training them on what they need to know in thier departments as determined by local training officers based on local conditions to conduct local operations is what makes firefighters safe. Taking time away from that to train them on sprinklers and standpipes, as example, when none exist in thier district is simply a waste of time.


    It's just unbelievable to read some of your posts, and scarier yet to think that there's a potential that you actually BELIEVE what you type... God save us all if that's what the future of the fire service is going to bring.
    Hopefully the future will bring amsarter fire service that understands that you cannot apply career standards to the volunteer fires ervice as the time simply does not exist for them to meet those standards.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-28-2012 at 01:16 PM.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So when do you suggest the volunteer members get the same training as career personnel, who get it while being paid to attend the academy M-f 8-5 for 12-24 weeks and get it while on-shift at the station?
    Again, as was stated before, on the volunteer side it's not so much quantity as it is quality, And maybe your department is getting quality training, but from your ramblings on here I'm not seeing it. And maybe I'm throwing situations I've been in, into this discussion too much, but I've been to more "trainings" than I can count that consisted of "Well, lets go drive the trucks around, just to get them ran." That's not quantity, and it sure as hell ain't quality.

    How much time should that volunteer take away from his/her family to meet those same requirements that a career member is being paid to meet?
    As much time as it takes to make them proficient in fire ground operations, and maintain that proficiency. If joining the local VFD takes too much time away from someones family, then maybe they should quit. I don't want a half cocked team of volunteers coming to put out a fire at my house, or to pull my family from a burning car. I want a dedicated group of volunteers, who understand that it takes sacrifice to do what they signed on to do, to come help me when I need it.

    What exactly is reasonable?
    It's reasonable to expect the people that are showing up to my emergency to be trained and proficient in the operations that need to be performed at that incident. And this is the point where we differ, because my definition of "operations that need to performed at that incident" and your definition are very, very different. Your definition lies somewhere in the area of keep it contained so it doesn't spread. Mine lies on the other side of the fence. Maximize rescue of viable victims, and save as much property as possible.

    Hopefully the future will bring amsarter fire service that understands that you cannot apply career standards to the volunteer fires ervice as the time simply does not exist for them to meet those standards.
    The future HAS brought a safer fire service. But a safer fire service doesn't mean that it's not full of risk or danger. And again, why should someone protected by volunteers have a better chance of having their house burned down than by someone protected by a career department. You seem so eager to just settle with time being a valid excuse to not be trained and proficient in what you do. I just can not and will not accept that.
    Last edited by Chenzo; 06-28-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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    Chenzo,

    I realize that trainings used to be the drive the truck or run the portable equipment. But you have to admit in the last year that training has become far better and more reality based.

    I have long believed that you teach basic skills and then at a later date tie those skills together in scenario based drills. Like the forcible entry, hose advance, ventilation drill. Or the relay drills we did for both city and rural hitches. Or most recently the blitz attack from tank water, transition to supply line, to handline mop up.

    Drills for volunteers, and for career guys for that matter, should be relevant, relatively brief, 1 or 2 hours in most cases, interesting, and challenging. I have found on both POC FDs I am on the more interesting and challenging I have made the drills the more eager the guys are to participate. Heck Chenzo, you yourself have seen the firefighters want to do the drill over and over because they want to do it better.

    Attitude about training comes from above lots of times. If the officers and chief don't find it necessary neither wll the ground troops.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Chenzo,

    I realize that trainings used to be the drive the truck or run the portable equipment. But you have to admit in the last year that training has become far better and more reality based.
    Very true. I can not deny that training has gotten better and more reality based. I'll take that a step further and say that I believe that on both departments, participation and willingness to drill has gotten better since training has improved.

    I have long believed that you teach basic skills and then at a later date tie those skills together in scenario based drills. Like the forcible entry, hose advance, ventilation drill. Or the relay drills we did for both city and rural hitches. Or most recently the blitz attack from tank water, transition to supply line, to handline mop up.
    Everyone was very pleased with the Blitz attack drill. Everyone has been very pleased with most of the stuff we have run lately. But that's because it's better, more realistic training. It's not just driving the trucks around or watching a 40 year old video anymore.

    Drills for volunteers, and for career guys for that matter, should be relevant, relatively brief, 1 or 2 hours in most cases, interesting, and challenging. I have found on both POC FDs I am on the more interesting and challenging I have made the drills the more eager the guys are to participate. Heck Chenzo, you yourself have seen the firefighters want to do the drill over and over because they want to do it better.
    I agree. Goes back to the "quality not quantity" that was brought up earlier. 1 hour of good, interesting, relevant training beats the hell out of 3 hours of driving trucks in circles.
    And yes, since training has been better and more interesting, people actually WANT to participate and be good at it. That also has to come with the fact that we have those couple newer guys who are hungry for knowledge and aren't too lazy to get it.

    Attitude about training comes from above lots of times. If the officers and chief don't find it necessary neither wll the ground troops.
    And you have to admit this has gotten better too. Maybe not necessarily all the way from the bottom up to the top, but there have been some good changes in attitude, and in officers, that have helped facilitate better training and keeping people interested. And as far as the 2nd department, there's just a lot of driven people over there who take pride in what they do, and are willing to work their *****es off to learn.
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    It's always funny that bobby thinks volunteers should be held to a different standard in terms of expectations but then, in the same breath, thinks there's absolutely no difference between the two positions. You can't cry for equality and then demand exclusivity. I see no difference in my duty no matter if I'm on the clock or not, there is no difference in what I am expected to do. Being said, why should there be a difference in standards and training? Sure, it's easy to say "but you're paid to train" which is true but I'm paid the same amount to sleep or to fight fire which is exactly the rate of how I'm compensated at my volly.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And again, the vast majority of the firefighters in this country do not do it as a "profession".

    You continue to show that you are .... naaaaaaaaaaaaa .... I'm going to stay above your level.
    And you continue to prove that you're a joke and a disgrace to the fire service.

    Thanks for this post.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Hopefully the future will bring amsarter fire service that understands that you cannot apply career standards to the volunteer fires ervice as the time simply does not exist for them to meet those standards.
    This statement is so remarkable one has to admire its stupidity as it is simple. I pray this isn't the norm in the VFD ranks.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    It's always funny that bobby thinks volunteers should be held to a different standard in terms of expectations but then, in the same breath, thinks there's absolutely no difference between the two positions. You can't cry for equality and then demand exclusivity. I see no difference in my duty no matter if I'm on the clock or not, there is no difference in what I am expected to do. Being said, why should there be a difference in standards and training? Sure, it's easy to say "but you're paid to train" which is true but I'm paid the same amount to sleep or to fight fire which is exactly the rate of how I'm compensated at my volly.
    Where did I say there was no difference?

    I have always stated that career and volunteers and not the same, and that career members should be held to a higher standard, as it is their job, and they are paid to train.

    To say that we should have the same expectations in terms of training for volunteers and career is simply unreasonable.

    And never have a I cried for equality, as again a career member should be better trained than a typical volunteer, and will in most places, run to more incidents have as such, be more experienced than a typical volunteer. Most volunteers recognize that, and understand that they likely are not the equal of a typical career member in a busy or moderately busy department.

    They certainly both are firefighters and should be called as such, but they bring various levels of training and experience along with that title.

    As I have said before, when career members attend the academy without pay, and are required to make all of their training hours off the clock, when not on duty, and have the same access to training, I'll be more than happy to state that volunteer and career members should have the identical levels of training.

    Until that happens, the playing field is unequal, and to expect the same training levels from career and volunteer members is nothing short of unreasonable.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-29-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Where did I say there was no difference?

    I have always stated that career and volunteers and not the same, and that career members should be held to a higher standard, as it is their job, and they are paid to train.
    You're correct. Professional firefighters do the job, and the vollies in your department only pretend to do the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To say that we should have the same expectations in terms of training for volunteers and career is simply unreasonable.
    Only if one is a pretend firefighter such as yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And never have a I cried for equality, as again a career member should be better trained than a typical volunteer, and will in most places, run to more incidents have as such, be more experienced than a typical volunteer. Most volunteers recognize that, and understand that they likely are not the equal of a typical career member in a busy or moderately busy department.
    Could you quantify this statement with something other than your worthless opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They certainly both are firefighters and should be called as such, but they bring various levels of training and experience along with that title.
    In your case, they both certainly are NOT firefighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I have said before, when career members attend the academy without pay, and are required to make all of their training hours off the clock, when not on duty, and have the same access to training, I'll be more than happy to state that volunteer and career members should have the identical levels of training.
    Which is why you are a disgrace to the fire service.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Until that happens, the playing field is unequal, and to expect the same training levels from career and volunteer members is nothing short of unreasonable.
    You may view the playing field as uneven, however the game is the same for both.

    You continue to reveal your idiocy as it relates to what being a firefighter means to those of us who took the profession seriously.
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    There really is no excuse for a volunteer to not be as trained or be willing to train to the same standard as a career firefighter..

    I'm married, and I try to go to every type of training that I can go to..as most volunteer training is held on nights and weekends, as most of the instructors do this as a second job. If I wasn't married would I attend more training? absolutely, but I have to factor in bills, cost of gas, and the scheduling and locations of the classes that I want to take, but whenever possible, I go and commit myself. When I'm home I go on various websites to read about tactics and I'll even go on YouTube..yes..YouTube and watch how other fire departments conduct operations, good or bad. I try to go out of district sometimes to get a better grasp on basics, we don't have much hydrants where I am from, so I took an engine company class where they run off hydrants, the dept used minute man loads, we used flat loads..learn new things or brush up on basic skills. Do I train every week? no, do I spend 24 hours a month or so training or drilling, or learning? probably more sometimes. My wife understands that I love to do this, and understands that my dream is to be working at a career dept someday, and that although that might not happen, and I'll be "just a volly" that doesn't mean that I shouldn't train as best I can, because she understands the gap in capabilities at our FH and through out the volunteer service in general, and she does not have an issue with me learning how to do my job in order to better protect myself, and others. So, sometimes she gets antsy when I'm gone, and she got mad when I went to the state fire academy for a week, and doesn't like that I'm going to the national fire academy on a weekend when she isn't working..but it is what it is, because she sees my passion, and understands that training is a must.

    I have no time for people who don't train or drill, people whose gear sits on their rack and collects dust in between "big ones"..if you don't drill on our equipment and keep yourself familiar how do I expect to trust you when we work together? I want to have absolute faith in my partner when I go into an IDLH atmosphere, on a roof, or if im cutting a car..if I don't trust you, I'm not going to work with you. it is what it is, I don't care about race, sex,religion..none of that..If you don't put the work in and show me your capable I am not leaving my life in your hands..sorry. If you have other commitments, a second job, a new kid being born, whatever..be a man and step down and focus on whats important. I would re-evaluate my commitment to the FD if I had more important family commitments because I don't want to get rusty because firefighting is a perishable skill, and risk my life or the life of others.

    There is no excuse not to train unless you come from the middle of nowhere Alaska or something, and even then there is the internet to get drill ideas from and you can train to a standard.

    Being paid to train is an added incentive, however, taking something you learned and applying on the fire ground is priceless, weather you train for free or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Again, as was stated before, on the volunteer side it's not so much quantity as it is quality, And maybe your department is getting quality training, but from your ramblings on here I'm not seeing it. And maybe I'm throwing situations I've been in, into this discussion too much, but I've been to more "trainings" than I can count that consisted of "Well, lets go drive the trucks around, just to get them ran." That's not quantity, and it sure as hell ain't quality.

    I fully agree.

    However I disagree with your statement re: my cmbo department. Wwe could argue about this alld ay but they are aggressive and effective. The training, for the most part is relevant and generally effective.

    Have I been to the type of training you are referring to? Sure as hell have, and yes, it's been on every department I have been in plus a couple of classes that I have taken at regional fire schools. I will admit that probably a few of my classes that didn't go quite as planned would fall into that catagory as well. On the department level, that type of training on a consistant basis will drive away members that want to train and learn, and will generally only draw in those that don't.

    On my volunteer side, the training within the previous 12 months has taken a completly different turn. While in the past, from what i have been told, some of the training was worthwhile, much of it was not. The training captain and myself have worked very hard to take it in a very different direction, and from the complasining that we are hearing more and more often about it being too physical and too tiring, we seem to be headed in the right direction. Skills are improving and the time needed to accomplish those skills are decreasing. We still have a little bit to go on getting the basic skills where we want them, but by the end of the year, we should be able to start working on mayday operations ans some advanced stuff.



    As much time as it takes to make them proficient in fire ground operations, and maintain that proficiency. If joining the local VFD takes too much time away from someones family, then maybe they should quit. I don't want a half cocked team of volunteers coming to put out a fire at my house, or to pull my family from a burning car. I want a dedicated group of volunteers, who understand that it takes sacrifice to do what they signed on to do, to come help me when I need it.

    And there is where we disagree.

    In the past,I have given up a lot of time with my wife and kids to train. Was it worth it? maybe, but it definatly played a role in my first marriage not working out. Am I complaining? No. But there can be a cost and that probably plays a role into how I feel about demanding too much time from volunteer personnel for training.

    It's easy to say they should be trained to level X, but at what point does the need to train outweigh the loss of manpower due to training requirements?

    Should they know the basics of residental fire operations? Hell yes, as those are 90% of our incidents.Does that mean they have to be interior? No, and IMO that should be a choice that any volunteer has without being turned away from the department if they feel that the time committment to be interior is too much for them, oe thier famalies, to handle.

    Commercial operations? Probably, yes, but in small community with limited resources that simply may be an area trains to make a quick search and then goes defensive all, or the majority of the time.

    Bottom line is there is a point where the volunteer fire service in most communities has to say we've gone far enough, and we simply can't add any more disciplines to what we do if they feel the training time to handle those responsbilities don't exist within thier departments.

    As an example my VFD does no EMS, no vehicle extrication, no technical rescue and no haz-mat beyond awareness simply because we have come to the conclusion that the time does not exist to adequatly train them to do the job.



    It's reasonable to expect the people that are showing up to my emergency to be trained and proficient in the operations that need to be performed at that incident. And this is the point where we differ, because my definition of "operations that need to performed at that incident" and your definition are very, very different. Your definition lies somewhere in the area of keep it contained so it doesn't spread. Mine lies on the other side of the fence. Maximize rescue of viable victims, and save as much property as possible.

    Those operations are also resource and manpower based.

    As an example, my combo department averages 23 career and volunteer members for a structure fire, which gives us the ability to perform some aggressive firefighting, especially in commercial structures, when conditions permit and the building justifies it, so we train to do so. That response also gives the ability to have our own RIT, so we train as such on it.

    In addition, we are also able to put a lot of water on-scene, which supports that aggressiveness.

    My currently VFD puts 6-7 members on the scene, and that will likely drop as we just lost one of our most active captain to relocation. In addition, a majority of the firefighters are VERY inexperienced. As a result, our training is focused on rapid exterior operations and knockdown, followed up by interior operations when additional personnel from our department or mutual aid arrives, as much as interior operations without the exterior hit. We train them to think defensive first, due to staffing, and then if fire and manpower allows, go interior. You may argue about that being the wrong approach, but it's the approach we have chosen until the manpower situation improves.

    And because of staffing, exterior or defensive operations at commercial buildings from arrival is stressed. like it or not, that is the training path we have chosen due to manpower, and until the situation improves, that is the direction we have to go for the safety of our people.



    The future HAS brought a safer fire service. But a safer fire service doesn't mean that it's not full of risk or danger. And again, why should someone protected by volunteers have a better chance of having their house burned down than by someone protected by a career department. You seem so eager to just settle with time being a valid excuse to not be trained and proficient in what you do. I just can not and will not accept that.
    The fact is that in most places there is a higher risk of losing a home in a volunteer district then a career dsitrict, if for no other reason than response time.

    I'm not eager to settle but I understand there is a finite amount of time that a person has to volunteer, and training can only take a portion of that. Only so much can be covered in that time, and because of that, the training has to be 100% relevant and applicable, and in some cases, choices as to what you will and will not train the members to do. Would I love to be able to train the personnel in my VFD on RIT, vehicle extrication and commercial operations? Hell yes! But I also know that right now, and likely for the foresable future, the time simply does not exist for that to happen.

    So yes, as department, we have limited capabilities, and we accept that because the time simply does not exist for the situation to be any different.
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    I hate that people look down on volunteers, and sometimes, even career people look down on volunteers. I hate when we run mutual aid and there is nothing left but a foundation..because the first due dept "has to much pride, and wants to do the job themselves" but realizes they are in over their head. I hate when I see Volly's with beards, and they think that is ok, but if they get killed on the job and the insurance company goes, hmm..is that facial hair NFPA compliant, and they don't pay his family squat, but that beard made him look really cool. or when a volunteer "truck driver" does not know what he needs to know operating a pump and cavitates the pump and then there is no water going on the fire and another house is lost, ehh, protect exposures..only thing is, that home owners life, is that house, everything he has is in that house, his clothes, his nick knacks, his photos of his grandfather in WWII, maybe even a pet..those things ARE his LIFE, so just because we aren't saving a baby every call, does not mean that we shouldn't put the same effort into making an aggressive interior assault to save the homeowner's LIFE. If my home caught on fire and the fire dept let a room and contents fire turn into a 30 foot by 30 foot by 25 foot fireball and didn't call mutual aid when they only showed up on scene with 3 or 4 good ole' boys I'd be enraged..my head would spin. If you are afraid of fire, or of heat, or of falling through a floor or of doing a hang and drop out of a window because the room is showing pre-flashover conditions and you have no exit route....then go work at Lowe's....When I get on scene, I move with a purpose, I'm not afraid, I'm pre-planning on the way in the apparatus, I do my own little size up and I attack the fire..period..because that is what I would want to see if my house or my friend's or family's house was on fire. Until that thought process is shared by EVERY volunteer house in the country, then we will continue to be a laughing stock amongst a fair share of the civilians, and even some of our own brothers.

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    but, then again...if you don't train, and aren't confident in your abilities...well..it is what it is. At least we saved the neighbor's siding; but then again, if we got there earlier, and made a knock when it was a room and contents, we wouldn't have that problem.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlLzt...eature=related

    prime example..hope the link works.

  19. #59
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    I hate that people look down on volunteers, and sometimes, even career people look down on volunteers.. I hate when I deal with arrogant volunteers that look at me and go "I am a volunteer, I don't need to get PAID to be a firefighter." Like that makes them better somehow. I hate when we run mutual aid and there is nothing left but a foundation..because the first due dept "has to much pride, and wants to do the job themselves" but realizes they are in over their head. I hate that too because then we spend hours wasting time soaking down a pile of smoldering rubble. I hate when I see Volly's with beards, and they think that is ok, but if they get killed on the job and the insurance company goes, hmm..is that facial hair NFPA compliant, and they don't pay his family squat, but that beard made him look really cool. I agree with you, if you want to be a firefighter, lose the beard. or when a volunteer "truck driver" does not know what he needs to know operating a pump and cavitates the pump and then there is no water going on the fire and another house is lost been there, seen that, dan sad, ehh, protect exposures..only thing is, that home owners life, is that house, everything he has is in that house, his clothes, his nick knacks, his photos of his grandfather in WWII, maybe even a pet..those things ARE his LIFE, so just because we aren't saving a baby every call, does not mean that we shouldn't put the same effort into making an aggressive interior assault to save the homeowner's LIFE. Hallelujah BROTHER! I can't tell you how many ties I have been thanked for saving the family photo album, or that special momento, or whatever. If my home caught on fire and the fire dept let a room and contents fire turn into a 30 foot by 30 foot by 25 foot fireball and didn't call mutual aid when they only showed up on scene with 3 or 4 good ole' boys I'd be enraged..my head would spin. As would I. People should be outraged at that nonsense. If you are afraid of fire, or of heat, or of falling through a floor or of doing a hang and drop out of a window because the room is showing pre-flashover conditions and you have no exit route....then go work at Lowe's....Indeed ths job is not for everyone. Too bad they can't admit that to themselves. When I get on scene, I move with a purpose, I'm not afraid, I'm pre-planning on the way in the apparatus, I do my own little size up and I attack the fire..period..because that is what I would want to see if my house or my friend's or family's house was on fire. Until that thought process is shared by EVERY volunteer house in the country, then we will continue to be a laughing stock amongst a fair share of the civilians, and even some of our own brothers. You understand the job, the mission, why people call us in the first place. Nice work Brother.
    Stay safe and keep up the fight.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  20. #60
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    I hate that people look down on volunteers, and sometimes, even career people look down on volunteers. I hate when we run mutual aid and there is nothing left but a foundation..because the first due dept "has to much pride, and wants to do the job themselves" but realizes they are in over their head. I hate when I see Volly's with beards, and they think that is ok, but if they get killed on the job and the insurance company goes, hmm..is that facial hair NFPA compliant, and they don't pay his family squat, but that beard made him look really cool. or when a volunteer "truck driver" does not know what he needs to know operating a pump and cavitates the pump and then there is no water going on the fire and another house is lost, ehh, protect exposures..only thing is, that home owners life, is that house, everything he has is in that house, his clothes, his nick knacks, his photos of his grandfather in WWII, maybe even a pet..those things ARE his LIFE, so just because we aren't saving a baby every call, does not mean that we shouldn't put the same effort into making an aggressive interior assault to save the homeowner's LIFE. If my home caught on fire and the fire dept let a room and contents fire turn into a 30 foot by 30 foot by 25 foot fireball and didn't call mutual aid when they only showed up on scene with 3 or 4 good ole' boys I'd be enraged..my head would spin. If you are afraid of fire, or of heat, or of falling through a floor or of doing a hang and drop out of a window because the room is showing pre-flashover conditions and you have no exit route....then go work at Lowe's....When I get on scene, I move with a purpose, I'm not afraid, I'm pre-planning on the way in the apparatus, I do my own little size up and I attack the fire..period..because that is what I would want to see if my house or my friend's or family's house was on fire. Until that thought process is shared by EVERY volunteer house in the country, then we will continue to be a laughing stock amongst a fair share of the civilians, and even some of our own brothers.
    Excellent post. Unfortunately, the jokes like Bossier Bobby don't get it. They want all the fanfare but none of the responsibility that goes with the job and the title.

    And it is for that reason many regard the fire service as a second priority when it comes to resources.
    Chenzo likes this.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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