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Thread: The danger of LAFE's way of thinking

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Different situation.
    Not as different as you think it is.

    Most states have granted regulatory responsibility to a state agency to regulate and more importantly, license, ambulance transport.
    This is actually irrelevant to the question you were asked, but continually try to dodge answering it.

    The question is pretty simple, you believe that volunteer firefighters should not be held to the same standards as career firefighters. Do you also believe that volunteer EMTs and Paramedics should be held to the same standards as career EMTs and Paramedics. There are many, many volunteer EMS providers working in the same communities that have all volunteer FDs, so we're talking about basically the same work environment.

    Basic logic and reasoning would say that given your view on the fire side of things that you would think the same way about the EMS side of things. Regulatory oversight should not be a factor in this as we're asking for YOUR opinion.

    So, do you think volunteer EMS providers should be held to a different standard than career EMS providers? Yes or No. Why do you feel that way?

    To the best of my knowledge, no state requires a license to operate as a fire department.
    Mine too, but they probably should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    The question is pretty simple, you believe that volunteer firefighters should not be held to the same standards as career firefighters. Do you also believe that volunteer EMTs and Paramedics should be held to the same standards as career EMTs and Paramedics. There are many, many volunteer EMS providers working in the same communities that have all volunteer FDs, so we're talking about basically the same work environment.
    This is a great question. I know two MD's that did volunteer with Doctors Without Borders. Should they be held to a different standard than an MD that is working in private practice or teaching at a university hospital?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This is a great question. I know two MD's that did volunteer with Doctors Without Borders. Should they be held to a different standard than an MD that is working in private practice or teaching at a university hospital?

    They absolutely should be held to different standards.

    No reason for an MD that works primarily with Doctors Without Borders to have to go through in house CPR training, Ethics compliance, Gender Equality training, Blood-born Pathogens, Lifting Safety (don't hurt your back) training, Proper recording of time clock in and out, Etc...all training that I, as a hospital employee, as well as the hospital physicians had to go to last year.

    However regardless of what type of doctor they need to be held to a higher standard in some areas when serving with Doctors Without Borders. In a hospital setting when a code comes into the ER there are Doctors that WILL NOT touch it, there are doctors that do not have the privilege to run a code in the hospital. There are many docs in the hospital that are not allowed to do surgical airways. Many docs that are not allowed to intubate someone. Other docs that may not read Echo's or CT's.

    In the Field when working with Doctors Without Borders you need to be able to do it all. Your specialty training can come in handy but you have to be held to a higher standard on basic lifesaving techniques and basic surgical procedures.

    So in a nutshell, They should absolutely be held to different performance and training standards.

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    Super cool story bro.
    Chenzo likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This is a great question. I know two MD's that did volunteer with Doctors Without Borders. Should they be held to a different standard than an MD that is working in private practice or teaching at a university hospital?
    I would have to say that this question would not be the same question. The heart of LA's argument revolves around training expectations. Initial fire training to be a "firefighter" should be less. Ongoing training should be less. My EMS question, although it may not be clearly stated, follows that thought. Should the requirements to be an EMT or Paramedic be lower because the person is a volunteer? Should the con-ed requirements to maintain certification be lower because the person is a volunteer? My state says NO to both of these questions.

    Your D w/o B question is comparing actual work settings rather than the initial training aspect since both are already MDs. In answer to your question, I think the very nature of how/where D w/o B is providing care requires a different standard than a hospital setting. I don't know that being "held to a different standard" is the right question. I think it requires a little more "latitude" with the care provided and/or how it's provided compared to a more ideal setting like a hospital.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    They absolutely should be held to different standards.

    No reason for an MD that works primarily with Doctors Without Borders to have to go through in house CPR training, Ethics compliance, Gender Equality training, Blood-born Pathogens, Lifting Safety (don't hurt your back) training, Proper recording of time clock in and out, Etc...all training that I, as a hospital employee, as well as the hospital physicians had to go to last year.

    However regardless of what type of doctor they need to be held to a higher standard in some areas when serving with Doctors Without Borders. In a hospital setting when a code comes into the ER there are Doctors that WILL NOT touch it, there are doctors that do not have the privilege to run a code in the hospital. There are many docs in the hospital that are not allowed to do surgical airways. Many docs that are not allowed to intubate someone. Other docs that may not read Echo's or CT's.

    In the Field when working with Doctors Without Borders you need to be able to do it all. Your specialty training can come in handy but you have to be held to a higher standard on basic lifesaving techniques and basic surgical procedures.

    So in a nutshell, They should absolutely be held to different performance and training standards.
    Your post is proof that you have no clue. Now run along.. some body puked in the ER and it needs cleanup.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    They absolutely should be held to different standards.

    No reason for an MD that works primarily with Doctors Without Borders to have to go through in house CPR training, Ethics compliance, Gender Equality training, Blood-born Pathogens, Lifting Safety (don't hurt your back) training, Proper recording of time clock in and out, Etc...all training that I, as a hospital employee, as well as the hospital physicians had to go to last year.

    However regardless of what type of doctor they need to be held to a higher standard in some areas when serving with Doctors Without Borders. In a hospital setting when a code comes into the ER there are Doctors that WILL NOT touch it, there are doctors that do not have the privilege to run a code in the hospital. There are many docs in the hospital that are not allowed to do surgical airways. Many docs that are not allowed to intubate someone. Other docs that may not read Echo's or CT's.

    In the Field when working with Doctors Without Borders you need to be able to do it all. Your specialty training can come in handy but you have to be held to a higher standard on basic lifesaving techniques and basic surgical procedures.

    So in a nutshell, They should absolutely be held to different performance and training standards.
    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I would have to say that this question would not be the same question. The heart of LA's argument revolves around training expectations. Initial fire training to be a "firefighter" should be less. Ongoing training should be less. My EMS question, although it may not be clearly stated, follows that thought. Should the requirements to be an EMT or Paramedic be lower because the person is a volunteer? Should the con-ed requirements to maintain certification be lower because the person is a volunteer? My state says NO to both of these questions.

    Your D w/o B question is comparing actual work settings rather than the initial training aspect since both are already MDs. In answer to your question, I think the very nature of how/where D w/o B is providing care requires a different standard than a hospital setting. I don't know that being "held to a different standard" is the right question. I think it requires a little more "latitude" with the care provided and/or how it's provided compared to a more ideal setting like a hospital.
    The difference is that all (those working and those volunteering) doctors go through the same initial training and have the same requirements in order to keep their licenses that enable them to practice.

    Bobby believes that volunteers shouldn't have to be held to the same standard. Please try not to convolute the argument.

    The bottom line is that Bobby and his department are a disgrace to the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    I've already posed this question to him in other threads (more than once) and I see the response that you got from him is pretty much what I expected. Nothing but a song and dance response that evades actually answering the question. So, he's either too stupid to understand the fairly obvious point being made or he's well aware of the point being made, knows he's been busted and is just dodging and weaving trying to get out of answering it.
    There are a couple of major differences between EMS and firefighting, as I have stated earlier.

    First of all, EMS has to do with direct patient contact on every run. Fire on the other hand sees, in most places, very little "patient contact", unless the department runs EMS. Very few calls, as a percentage of runs has anything to do with providing direct intervention with the public. Non-rescue structure fires, vehicle fires, brush fires, trash fires, alarm investigations, power lines down .. etc etc has to do with stuff and things, not people. this is even more true for rural volunteer departments.

    Secondly, there is not a lot of variation regarding medical problems that need to be treated nationwide and there is no variation between volunteer and career in the same geographic area. Sure, there are a very few environmental such as heat/cold and poisonous snakes bites but other than that, there is not much in the way of variation that a nationwide medical response cirriculum has to account for.

    That is not the case where urban fire hazards and rural fire hazards vary greatly, not to mention the resources available for the operation. Sorry, but the concept that a certification program can accommodate high-rises, subways and large industrial facilities can also accommodate large brush fires, farm fires, rural water, silo fires and a host of rural issues is something I simply do not buy into.

    As I have said, I may buy into FFI if and only if it is broken down into a minimum of 2, but preferably 3 classifications - urban, suburban (which would apply yo my last VFD) and rural (likley my current combo but definatly my current VFD) FFI.

    I have already outlined my other considerations - funding by the state, especially in LA, to provide the training, certification cost and manpower cost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have already outlined my other considerations - funding by the state, especially in LA, to provide the training, certification cost and manpower cost.
    And that's why real firefighters consider you a disgrace to the fire service.
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    I just had a thought -if la somehow ended up with Chief Woods -< "problem solved"> rescue. First thing he would do is get up there with a rattle can and change it to < "aww come on now - anything is better than nothing">
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    And that's why real firefighters consider you a disgrace to the fire service.
    So you believe in an unfunded mandate where rural department with budgets of 20K are now expected to meet the same standards as departments with 200K, 500K, 1M and more without state assistance through an increased fire service training budgets to get them there and support the mandate?

    Really.

    And where do you expect this money to come from?

    Ya, you need to spend more time out of the city.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    I just had a thought -if la somehow ended up with Chief Woods -< "problem solved"> rescue. First thing he would do is get up there with a rattle can and change it to < "aww come on now - anything is better than nothing">
    And Chief Woods is in a far different situation than a rural fire department with almost no tax base for support, a very limited manpower base and very few fires to build experience.

    And his state provides free fire training.

    Likely if i was in that enviroment I would have a different attitude as the department has money for training and equipment, manpower for operations and runs to gain real worlds experience.

    And ya, the free training too.
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    The same place other departments in your situation who meet that criteria get it from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    The same place other departments in your situation who meet that criteria get it from.
    As i have said before, it's not my combo department that's the issue.

    Out training budget has allowed us to build probably the best training grounds in this aprt of the state, send as many members as want to go to regional classes in LA and TX, send members to Industrial Fire Schools as TEEX and LSU, and even send members to FDIC.

    The training budget at my combo department is just fine.

    MY VFD had a training budget of 5K. With the rolling of the milage forward this year, our overall budget increased and training went to 9K. While not a fortune, it will allow us to do some stuff and send members to a few schools that simple were not possible under the 5K budget.

    The problem is the very rural departments that simply cannot ask the citizens for anymore as the vast majority of the citizens have nothing to give. Sorry, but those departments are abig chunk of th departments in LA, and the nation. It's those departments that simply will not be able to meet mandated training requirements unless either state funding to pay for the classes or increased state funding to the state training agency comes with the mandate to deliver the now required training to small rural VFDs.

    The funds within their departments simply do not exist to meet any new training requirements,
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As i have said before, it's not my combo department that's the issue.

    Out training budget has allowed us to build probably the best training grounds in this aprt of the state, send as many members as want to go to regional classes in LA and TX, send members to Industrial Fire Schools as TEEX and LSU, and even send members to FDIC.

    The training budget at my combo department is just fine.

    MY VFD had a training budget of 5K. With the rolling of the milage forward this year, our overall budget increased and training went to 9K. While not a fortune, it will allow us to do some stuff and send members to a few schools that simple were not possible under the 5K budget.

    The problem is the very rural departments that simply cannot ask the citizens for anymore as the vast majority of the citizens have nothing to give. Sorry, but those departments are abig chunk of th departments in LA, and the nation. It's those departments that simply will not be able to meet mandated training requirements unless either state funding to pay for the classes or increased state funding to the state training agency comes with the mandate to deliver the now required training to small rural VFDs.

    The funds within their departments simply do not exist to meet any new training requirements,
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    You can make plans -- or you can make excuses - we all know which route you chose.
    Bobby's plans are to make excuses....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    LA,

    Let's take the mandate out of it. Eliminate that entirely.

    Now let's get down to brass tacks. I don't care if you are the Podunk Louisiana fire department, or some big city out east fire department, for my comparison and question for you. Please explain tp me how a fire department can't afford to take the troops out and do a rural water movement drill? Or a hose advancement drill? Or a darken the face piece with a trash bag search an rescue drill in the fire station? Or throw ladders up aganst the station, or some other building in the area? Or get a few scrap pallets and practice using the vent saw or practice chopping? Or a myriad of other drills that call for no outside equipment and really nothing more than the ambition to set up the drill...

    You see I am the training officer for 2 POC FDs and I haven't spent a dime to run inhouse drills this year. Well, I suppose you could say that we did because the trucks had to be fueled. But I bought no outside props, paid no instructors, traveled no where, other than the local salvage yard. By the way, we get to tear up cars a couple times a year out there for free.

    So tell me agan how if we stay with your local only training guidelines it costs too much to train...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So you believe in an unfunded mandate where rural department with budgets of 20K are now expected to meet the same standards as departments with 200K, 500K, 1M and more without state assistance through an increased fire service training budgets to get them there and support the mandate?

    Really.

    And where do you expect this money to come from?

    Ya, you need to spend more time out of the city.
    The same place the money comes from to pay for the mandates required for LEO's.

    Thanks for the softball question and your continued proof that you and your department are a disgrace to the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    LA,

    Let's take the mandate out of it. Eliminate that entirely.

    Now let's get down to brass tacks. I don't care if you are the Podunk Louisiana fire department, or some big city out east fire department, for my comparison and question for you. Please explain tp me how a fire department can't afford to take the troops out and do a rural water movement drill? Or a hose advancement drill? Or a darken the face piece with a trash bag search an rescue drill in the fire station? Or throw ladders up aganst the station, or some other building in the area? Or get a few scrap pallets and practice using the vent saw or practice chopping? Or a myriad of other drills that call for no outside equipment and really nothing more than the ambition to set up the drill...

    Funny thing is that my combo and volunteer departments do stuff like that about 50-75% of the time. The rest of the drills we do classroom programs. Training for either of my departments is not a problem.

    Of course, my combo department uses live fire a little bit more because we have our own props, but my VFDs training the last 6 months has been primarily physical hands-on stuff with some classroom thrown in.

    As far as any other volunteer departments, I can''t answer that question. I have no idea how they view the role of training and what they want to achieve from training. I know of many volunteer departments in this area that train consistently, and I know of many that do little training. Should those that do not train constantly train more? In my opinion, yes. But that being said I'm not going to look badly on them because I don't know the reasons why they don't train more. Changing a culture can be difficult and maybe the leaders don't have the stomach for it, or don't think it's worth the effort of the costs in manpower. And more importantly, it's simply not my place to judge another departments training program.

    My combo department trains every week. My volunteer department trains every week.


    You see I am the training officer for 2 POC FDs and I haven't spent a dime to run inhouse drills this year. Well, I suppose you could say that we did because the trucks had to be fueled. But I bought no outside props, paid no instructors, traveled no where, other than the local salvage yard. By the way, we get to tear up cars a couple times a year out there for free.

    And so do we. My combo department has several Instructor I and II's as well as those I's and II's that have some very specialized certifications ranging from PubEd and Inspector to Driver/Operator, rope, confined space and swiftwater rescue, so there isn't a lot in the way of classes that we cannot do in-house.

    My VFD has myself and the training Captain and Instructor II and we are very qualified to teach firefighting and limited vehicle rescue.

    Both of our departments spend very little for training props beyond the 3 LNG props and the new burn building my combo department installed within the last 9 months.


    So tell me agan how if we stay with your local only training guidelines it costs too much to train...
    And I'll say this really slow, again, so you understand. training at either on of my departments not an issue. It occurs every week and does the job.

    The increase in my VFDs budget will have very little impact on weekly, local training. It will allow us to send members out of town and give us additional funding for certification testing.

    I know there are other departments, especially rural departments, where it is. part of the reason is cultural, in that there is no real history of aggressive training in those departments, and likely if they tried to change that culture, there would be resistance and likely some loss of membership, so it's just easier for them to continue in the direction they have always traveled in regards to training. Is that right? By my standards, no, but that being said, it's not my call as an outsider to have any expectations for them as a department to train or not to train. Quite frankly, it's none of my business. Unfortunately my VFD has 2 neighboring departments that fall into that catagory. Would I like them to be better trained so that when we call them for MA, they would be able to provide more? Sure as hell yes, but again, that is, in the long run, an internal decision and it's really none of my business.

    One of the issues is interior training, which cannot be done as you describe without a burn facility. Sure, you can stretch lines through the bays simulating fire attack all you want but it in no way prepares new members for actual fire attack. The fact is the majority of the departments in the northern and central part of LA have no practical access to live burn facilities and likely never will due to a simple lack of funding. And that is true in many, many, many regions of this country. Without that access to train new members on interior ops and keep older members skills current, I have NO issues with a department conducting no, or very limited interior operations. if they can't get the real world training, there should be no expectation by anyone in the fire service that they should conduct the real-world skills.

    Yes, they should still train, but to be an exterior-based department.

    I beleive in training, but that being said, why other departments don't train is none of my business, and I have no right to gig them for deciding not to.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-01-2012 at 09:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The same place the money comes from to pay for the mandates required for LEO's.

    Thanks for the softball question and your continued proof that you and your department are a disgrace to the fire service.
    Enlighten me then.. Where do I apply for all of this certification money?
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    So LA, your combo department built this wonderful burn facility. Did you go out to the neighboring FDs and ask them if they wanted to buy in so they could use it too? You see that is called cooperation...thinking outside the box.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There are a couple of major differences between EMS and firefighting, as I have stated earlier.

    First of all, EMS has to do with direct patient contact on every run. Fire on the other hand sees, in most places, very little "patient contact", unless the department runs EMS. Very few calls, as a percentage of runs has anything to do with providing direct intervention with the public. Non-rescue structure fires, vehicle fires, brush fires, trash fires, alarm investigations, power lines down .. etc etc has to do with stuff and things, not people. this is even more true for rural volunteer departments.

    Secondly, there is not a lot of variation regarding medical problems that need to be treated nationwide and there is no variation between volunteer and career in the same geographic area. Sure, there are a very few environmental such as heat/cold and poisonous snakes bites but other than that, there is not much in the way of variation that a nationwide medical response cirriculum has to account for.

    That is not the case where urban fire hazards and rural fire hazards vary greatly, not to mention the resources available for the operation. Sorry, but the concept that a certification program can accommodate high-rises, subways and large industrial facilities can also accommodate large brush fires, farm fires, rural water, silo fires and a host of rural issues is something I simply do not buy into.

    As I have said, I may buy into FFI if and only if it is broken down into a minimum of 2, but preferably 3 classifications - urban, suburban (which would apply yo my last VFD) and rural (likley my current combo but definatly my current VFD) FFI.

    I have already outlined my other considerations - funding by the state, especially in LA, to provide the training, certification cost and manpower cost.
    Blah, blah, blah. This post just further proves how much of a baffoon you are.

    All of the stuff you mentioned has absolutely no barring on the actual question you were asked. It was a pretty simple question and despite what you think, it really wasn't about all-encompassing fire service certifications.

    You believe that volunteer firefighters should not be held to the same standards as career firefighters. Do you also believe that volunteer EMS providers should not be held to the same standards as career EMS providers? Yes or No, it's really that simple of an answer. The more complicated part is explaining why you answered yes or no to the question, but that really shouldn't be all that complicated either.

    So until you actually provide a yes or no and an explanation of why you feel that way, I'm just going to assume that you are evading answering the question and attempting to divert attention from it because you know you are backed into a corner you can't get out of.

    If you answer yes, then that means you believe that it's acceptable for a volunteer ambulance crew to be less trained than a career ambulance crew. Taking the ALS aspect out the equation for now, this means that you believe that a BLS level volunteer ambulance does not need to have an EMT on it. My suspicion is that you know how ridiculous that is and don't actually support it.

    If you answer no, then that means you are a hypocrite given your advocating for different volunteer/career fire standards.

    Tough decision. So what's it going to be Bobby, yes or no?

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    For quite a while I've sat back and read through this thread and watched it grow along with seeing other posts by LA. At first I was going to give you a chance seeing maybe that you would see the ridiculousness that is your view on the fire service and how it should be run and trainings and certifications and etc. etc. Now that you continue to prove your ignorance I have no hope for you or your department and I hope for everyone's safety that lives in your area that they never feel ill or have any need to call the FD because it would be a waste of time. Well I'm done, getting off my soap box now to go back to watching you just dig yourself a bigger hole making excuses. However I leave you with this last piece of advice: Reread your post before posting. Your typing skills make me want to slap you up the head with a middle school grammar book since middle school is probably about your learning age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So LA, your combo department built this wonderful burn facility. Did you go out to the neighboring FDs and ask them if they wanted to buy in so they could use it too? You see that is called cooperation...thinking outside the box.
    The burn facility is open to any area department for the cost of the propane.

    My volunteer department will be using it this fall when it cools down.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Blah, blah, blah. This post just further proves how much of a baffoon you are.

    All of the stuff you mentioned has absolutely no barring on the actual question you were asked. It was a pretty simple question and despite what you think, it really wasn't about all-encompassing fire service certifications.

    You believe that volunteer firefighters should not be held to the same standards as career firefighters. Do you also believe that volunteer EMS providers should not be held to the same standards as career EMS providers? Yes or No, it's really that simple of an answer. The more complicated part is explaining why you answered yes or no to the question, but that really shouldn't be all that complicated either.

    So until you actually provide a yes or no and an explanation of why you feel that way, I'm just going to assume that you are evading answering the question and attempting to divert attention from it because you know you are backed into a corner you can't get out of.

    If you answer yes, then that means you believe that it's acceptable for a volunteer ambulance crew to be less trained than a career ambulance crew. Taking the ALS aspect out the equation for now, this means that you believe that a BLS level volunteer ambulance does not need to have an EMT on it. My suspicion is that you know how ridiculous that is and don't actually support it.

    If you answer no, then that means you are a hypocrite given your advocating for different volunteer/career fire standards.

    Tough decision. So what's it going to be Bobby, yes or no?
    It's actually quite easy.

    All EMS personnel should be held to the exact same standard for the reasons outlined in my previous post.

    The same should not be the case with fire and the reasons were outlined above. It is simply unreasonable to expect volunteer personnel to meet the same standards as career personnel. It is also uneccessary.

    An FR, EMT or paramedic should be trained to the same standards and have the same coned requirements.

    As far as the crew itself, and how it's composed, that is a decision that needs to be made by the community regarding the level of care they want provided. If they want paramedic level all the time, they likely will have to have career personnel.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2012 at 08:52 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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