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Thread: Another "what were they thinking" video

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    Hurt my feelings....ok. Not even close, nor could you are anyone even attain that feat. I have courage of my convictions. Ive taught at FH conventions and other venues....i stand by what I say. People can take thier papers and certs and flush them. I measure a members ability by how he performs, not how he BS me. Reputation is all I care about. How its earned on the fireground and in the kitchen. And since you mentioned my dept, which I didnt, nor is it even in my profile....but anyway, since you mentioned it...I was a vollie long before I was paid for it, and in that tome Ive seen many guys with papers that couldnt climb stairs, ladders or stretch lines, but they could speak a good game. Basically who cares! I couldnt even tell you what we have from our academy..

    The only thing that matters is reputation...fireground and kitchen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And if there was a mandated training level of FFI, as some would like it, and they were not trained to that level, there would be no fire department.

    That is the hard cold reality of recruiting and retention in the rural world, and a mandated standard would only make the problem worse.

    Some folks just have a hard time with that reality.
    If the 3 guys leave because you ask them to attain something as basic as FF1- (which again is nothing but a foundation to build your training on) then you arent losing anything of value anyway.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    No it really isn't. It truly is closer to LA's point of view than anything else.
    Fyredup , not wanting to start an argument (not that you would argue) -but I dont see the connection.
    What I take from vinnys statement is that he is against the new "kindler/gentler" fire service training , the "yay its a tie ,everyone wins" type mentality. Our fire academy has taken pressure from the state reps to make their outside training ,no fail. Luckilly rookie school will still flunk you.
    What I take is he is talking about the measure of a fireman is taken when it gets down to the nutcutting. Maybe im wrong -but all I get from la s way of thinking is giving a "firefighter" a pocketful of excuses.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    Hurt my feelings....ok. Not even close, nor could you are anyone even attain that feat. I have courage of my convictions. Ive taught at FH conventions and other venues....i stand by what I say. People can take thier papers and certs and flush them. I measure a members ability by how he performs, not how he BS me. Reputation is all I care about. How its earned on the fireground and in the kitchen. And since you mentioned my dept, which I didnt, nor is it even in my profile....but anyway, since you mentioned it...I was a vollie long before I was paid for it, and in that tome Ive seen many guys with papers that couldnt climb stairs, ladders or stretch lines, but they could speak a good game. Basically who cares! I couldnt even tell you what we have from our academy..

    The only thing that matters is reputation...fireground and kitchen.
    In YOUR world. Did you even read what I posted. Because your response sure doesn't make it seem like you did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Fyredup , not wanting to start an argument (not that you would argue) -but I dont see the connection.
    What I take from vinnys statement is that he is against the new "kindler/gentler" fire service training , the "yay its a tie ,everyone wins" type mentality. Our fire academy has taken pressure from the state reps to make their outside training ,no fail. Luckilly rookie school will still flunk you.
    What I take is he is talking about the measure of a fireman is taken when it gets down to the nutcutting. Maybe im wrong -but all I get from la s way of thinking is giving a "firefighter" a pocketful of excuses.
    The rest of the US is not the FDNY. There are many small and medium size FDs that require, PRIOR to application/hire, both fire and ems certifications. I never said, and if either you or Vinnie had actually read and understood my post, that certs replaced real world experience. What I said was that real world experience needs to be added to the training that got you the certs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The rest of the US is not the FDNY. There are many small and medium size FDs that require, PRIOR to application/hire, both fire and ems certifications. I never said, and if either you or Vinnie had actually read and understood my post, that certs replaced real world experience. What I said was that real world experience needs to be added to the training that got you the certs.
    I read the post, I still dont see how what vinnyb said is even in the same universe as anything la has said.
    Sorry but I cant connect the dots. And maybe I am missing something , but there are certs and there is learning. Sometimes a cert means you learned some times it can just mean you attended. I dont think we disagree that class room and experence are both needed. To me having formal training (again meaningful training) helps me learn from my mistakes. I learned about upsetting thermal balance in a class room setting, but understood it after I "souped" up a room. Without the "formal" training , all I would have know was "I made the room hot and dark" - but with the two combined , a light bulb went off and I thought "thats what the instructor meant" In Arkansas you can get hired with no training, but almost immediatly you are sent to a 6 week rookie school at the fire academy. You leave with an IFSAC FF2 "cert" - but they will send you home if you cant cut it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The rest of the US is not the FDNY.
    ....oh here we go again....../facepalm.....you TOTALLY missed the point......slackjaw picked up on it....as did SCFIRE.....so one last time for the slow folks....

    Even if you walk into the door of XYZ FD in Someplace US, which ISFANPFAQFY Level I/II/Inst-T....YOU STILL HAVE TO PROVE YOURSELF to the jakes who already work there...and you can fill the toilet stalls with the cert papers....It all matter that you can apply the simple logic we require for this job and back it up by being heads-up, step-up and mostly.....shutting the F up.....congrats, you have papers that say you can try to be a fireman.....now back it up and perform...and be able to take ball breaking or life will be tough.....I think that pretty much sums up ANY professional FD........anywhere.

    Curious....why do you keep mentioning FDNY? No one else is mentioning them, or making reference? I am sensing you have some sort of egodystonic, sycophantic, preoccupation with it all.....what can I do to help you assuage or palliate the conflict?
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    duplicate post
    Last edited by FyredUp; 08-03-2012 at 09:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    ....oh here we go again....../facepalm.....you TOTALLY missed the point......slackjaw picked up on it....as did SCFIRE.....so one last time for the slow folks....

    No, Vinnie, I got your point loud and clear. Your contempt for certifications came through loud and clear. Followed by your almost ridiculously complete failure to read and comprehend what I said about certs being only part of the picture and needing real world experience to complete training.

    This job isnt hard...but these conventions contiune to develop ways to reinvent the wheel...and buffs keep paying to get "certified", because a piece of paper says so....laughable at best.
    As for scfire, it is hysterical that he thinks your post was "perfect" yet he has railed on LA for days now in another topic about making FF1 a national minimum standard. Seems he can'tmake up his mind whether certification is good or not.


    Even if you walk into the door of XYZ FD in Someplace US, which ISFANPFAQFY Level I/II/Inst-T....YOU STILL HAVE TO PROVE YOURSELF to the jakes who already work there...and you can fill the toilet stalls with the cert papers....It all matter that you can apply the simple logic we require for this job and back it up by being heads-up, step-up and mostly.....shutting the F up.....congrats, you have papers that say you can try to be a fireman.....now back it up and perform...and be able to take ball breaking or life will be tough.....I think that pretty much sums up ANY professional FD........anywhere.

    I never disagreed with this. My point was, and is, that certs are a beginning point or a way to add to your training. I never said it replaced having to prove yourself to your fellow firefighters. I never said it replaced real world experience, or shut the **** up, or cleaning toilets, or anything else. I would assume that because of your attitude towards certs that they carry little weight in your career FD. In other parts of this country they are used to show initiative for promotion, or to even get hired. That doesn't eliminate the academy, or real world experience, it supports it.

    Curious....why do you keep mentioning FDNY? No one else is mentioning them, or making reference? I am sensing you have some sort of egodystonic, sycophantic, preoccupation with it all.....what can I do to help you assuage or palliate the conflict?

    Nope. I find the FDNY fascinating, I enjoy reading about what they are doing. I have a special interest in the apparatus, although not as much as when they had all those Mack CFs. I don't think they are Gods to be worshipped though. Vinnie it is well known here you are FDNY. Why are you downplaying that fact now? Frankly, I took the advice of either you or one of the other FDNY guys here that told me one time "Don't do what we do, just because we do it." Maybe the corrolary to that is "Don't tell people not to do what you do and then be a condescending *** to them when they don't."
    Have a nice evening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Have a nice evening.
    Too much red stuff to read....can you maybe try a more succinct approach? Again, I never mentioned I was FDNY...nor did I make any accusation about what we do....I made a casual kitchen minded observation on the topic. So again...you transcend the closing context of my previous approach..unless there is some sort of collusion on my part that I am not privy too.....

    So...I guess you can just slap those certs up on the fridge with a gold star. Why do you strive so hard? I read over the "certs" threads...you were first to answer both the career and vollie one and second to post on the Vollie-Career thread. To me...that's textbook Egodystonic personality, but peaks my interest in a quirky way...so...why is that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    ....oh here we go again....../facepalm.....you TOTALLY missed the point......slackjaw picked up on it....as did SCFIRE.....so one last time for the slow folks....

    Even if you walk into the door of XYZ FD in Someplace US, which ISFANPFAQFY Level I/II/Inst-T....YOU STILL HAVE TO PROVE YOURSELF to the jakes who already work there...and you can fill the toilet stalls with the cert papers....It all matter that you can apply the simple logic we require for this job and back it up by being heads-up, step-up and mostly.....shutting the F up.....congrats, you have papers that say you can try to be a fireman.....now back it up and perform...and be able to take ball breaking or life will be tough.....I think that pretty much sums up ANY professional FD........anywhere.

    Curious....why do you keep mentioning FDNY? No one else is mentioning them, or making reference? I am sensing you have some sort of egodystonic, sycophantic, preoccupation with it all.....what can I do to help you assuage or palliate the conflict?
    There's two types of reps. One is the rep a person gets on paper. The other is the rep one has in a bar amongst his colleagues.

    I'll take the latter over the former any day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    Too much red stuff to read....can you maybe try a more succinct approach? Again, I never mentioned I was FDNY...nor did I make any accusation about what we do....I made a casual kitchen minded observation on the topic. So again...you transcend the closing context of my previous approach..unless there is some sort of collusion on my part that I am not privy too.....

    So...I guess you can just slap those certs up on the fridge with a gold star. Why do you strive so hard? I read over the "certs" threads...you were first to answer both the career and vollie one and second to post on the Vollie-Career thread. To me...that's textbook Egodystonic personality, but peaks my interest in a quirky way...so...why is that?

    Nah, just first to read the topic and post. Nothing more. But hey, if it makes you feel good to whip out the thesaurus and post $50 dollar words do go ahead. I knew you wouldn't read the post. It is just easier to blather BS than to counter the truth about what you said.

    It was no "casual kitchen remark" you made a stupid condescending remark about firefighters getting certifications. I posted that certs need real world experience to make the education complete.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    There's two types of reps. One is the rep a person gets on paper. The other is the rep one has in a bar amongst his colleagues.

    I'll take the latter over the former any day.
    I am sure you will because now your big city hero is saying certs don't mean jack. Hysterically you have absolutely HAMMERED LA about setting a minimum certification standard for months in multiple topics. How many sides of your face can you post out of scfire? Because it appears you can do at least 2.

    Show me where I said certs were the end all be all. Geezus you guys are so desperate you have to make up **** that I never said to make yourselves look good. Go back to my first post to Vinnie and read what I said, not what you need to believe I said so you can post ultra cool comebacks, but what I actually posted. I clearly said that a combination of certs and real world experience was the key to a good firefighter. I clearly posted my annecdote about the cert heavy/experience lacking firefighter on my POC FD.

    I agree 100% that a cert only firefighter, with no real world experience of making that smoky hot hallway, will never be as good as a firefighter with those experiences. But the fact that a firefighter has certs does not make him some how a horrible firefighter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I am sure you will because now your big city hero is saying certs don't mean jack. Hysterically you have absolutely HAMMERED LA about setting a minimum certification standard for months in multiple topics. How many sides of your face can you post out of scfire? Because it appears you can do at least 2.
    You totally miss his point. I never said certs don't mean jack.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Show me where I said certs were the end all be all. Geezus you guys are so desperate you have to make up **** that I never said to make yourselves look good. Go back to my first post to Vinnie and read what I said, not what you need to believe I said so you can post ultra cool comebacks, but what I actually posted. I clearly said that a combination of certs and real world experience was the key to a good firefighter. I clearly posted my annecdote about the cert heavy/experience lacking firefighter on my POC FD.
    I've never directed any comments towards you. Sounds like you have sensitivity issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I agree 100% that a cert only firefighter, with no real world experience of making that smoky hot hallway, will never be as good as a firefighter with those experiences. But the fact that a firefighter has certs does not make him some how a horrible firefighter.
    Which is the main point with which I agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So I guess you're travelling the same road as SC huh?

    Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
    What's the big deal.. I'm told I look a lot like this character...

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    If the 3 guys leave because you ask them to attain something as basic as FF1- (which again is nothing but a foundation to build your training on) then you arent losing anything of value anyway.
    I think that community would disagree with that train of thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    What's the big deal.. I'm told I look a lot like this character...

    Ok, you got me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Nah, just first to read the topic and post. Nothing more. But hey, if it makes you feel good to whip out the thesaurus and post $50 dollar words do go ahead. I knew you wouldn't read the post. It is just easier to blather BS than to counter the truth about what you said.

    It was no "casual kitchen remark" you made a stupid condescending remark about firefighters getting certifications. I posted that certs need real world experience to make the education complete.
    No...those are $100 words...and one is a $1000 words...I have a certificate on my fridge with a few gold stars that's says I know that for sure.......

    I guess you've never been in a kitchen before.....you are too easy of a target.

    And again with the "big city remarks".....my you really are affirming what I have concluded. You seem to have a self-esteem issue since you try so hard to show everyone your achievements.....why so angry? Come sit on my couch.....we can talk about it......we can begin to unwrap these conflicts.

    I guess you fail to see the logic here. So I'll break it down for you...in simple form so you have a clear understanding.

    -I said "who cares about papers, experience and reputation is what matters, on the fireground and in the kitchen, paper means nothing" (sic)

    -You agreed to that but then go on to say I am ignorant and then contradict your first argument by saying paper means something, but asserting paper needs real world experience.

    -Therefore, paper means nothing, but something, hence the need for real world experience, but because I am supposedly ignorant, my argument is invalid.

    The rest of your posts are just ad hominem. Making them completely invalid. I never up played my dept or my position within it. You assumed my mentality is because of my FD, despite me stating I was a vollie well before I was career. And you continue to use terms like "big city hero" "god like" etc etc without any evidence from me that points to validate those claims. Therefore, it is clear that you are sensitive and have a sort of self-inducted inferiority complex based upon your own attitude you have displayed here. Clearly, your id and superego are at the end of their spectrum's. Your id needs to justify yourself and your existence, basically screaming for attention. And you are extremely judgmental and stern in your beliefs despite actually agreeing to an argument, but that because of your id, your superego does not allow you to validate that argument......

    ...interesting....very interesting.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So I guess you're travelling the same road as SC huh?

    Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
    You have to admit. That's a pretty remarkable resemblance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    No...those are $100 words...and one is a $1000 words...I have a certificate on my fridge with a few gold stars that's says I know that for sure.......

    I guess you've never been in a kitchen before.....you are too easy of a target.

    And again with the "big city remarks".....my you really are affirming what I have concluded. You seem to have a self-esteem issue since you try so hard to show everyone your achievements.....why so angry? Come sit on my couch.....we can talk about it......we can begin to unwrap these conflicts.

    I guess you fail to see the logic here. So I'll break it down for you...in simple form so you have a clear understanding.

    -I said "who cares about papers, experience and reputation is what matters, on the fireground and in the kitchen, paper means nothing" (sic)

    -You agreed to that but then go on to say I am ignorant and then contradict your first argument by saying paper means something, but asserting paper needs real world experience.

    -Therefore, paper means nothing, but something, hence the need for real world experience, but because I am supposedly ignorant, my argument is invalid.

    The rest of your posts are just ad hominem. Making them completely invalid. I never up played my dept or my position within it. You assumed my mentality is because of my FD, despite me stating I was a vollie well before I was career. And you continue to use terms like "big city hero" "god like" etc etc without any evidence from me that points to validate those claims. Therefore, it is clear that you are sensitive and have a sort of self-inducted inferiority complex based upon your own attitude you have displayed here. Clearly, your id and superego are at the end of their spectrum's. Your id needs to justify yourself and your existence, basically screaming for attention. And you are extremely judgmental and stern in your beliefs despite actually agreeing to an argument, but that because of your id, your superego does not allow you to validate that argument......

    ...interesting....very interesting.....
    You should go into politics, you are the master of BS that says nothing with far too many words.

    Frankly Vinnie, you are kind of boring. You pop in and out stir the pot just like the kitchen agitator and when you get called on it you sing and dance and hide behind smoke and mirrors. As for sitting around the kitchen table and busting balls...I don't think you would last long at my career house.

    Since you don't know me your bathroom stall psychiatry really means nothing at all to me.

    The facts are many fire departments, as PART of their training, require certifications. That isn't an end all be all, it is a baseline that the FD builds on with their inhouse training and real world experience. Maybe that isn't how your FD works, but it is VERY common around here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The simple fact is that we will never see eye-to-eye on this. I will conced that FFI has been established as the industry standard. That being said I will not agree that it is the best method to train rookie members in the rural enviroment. It simply is too generic, too irrelvant and simply not time effective.
    If you were paying better attention to the discussion you would know that we are not touting FF1 in and of itself as the "best method to train rookie members" in any environment. We are advocating a combination of FF1 training/certification in conjunction with in-house training providing that depth needed for local conditions.

    Your opinions on FF1 are laughable at best since you can't seem to stick to anything about it other than it shouldn't be mandated. You assert that FF1 not applicable to rural areas, but state that your in-house training is based on a lot of FF1 content. You complain that it is irrelevant to rural departments because it's geared towards urban/suburban areas, but then claim that its curriculum is too generic. You claim that most of FF1 isn't applicable to rural areas, but then state that a firefighter should be trained in many of the things that FF1 covers.

    I'm willing to admit that the FF1 curriculum may be "too generic" and should cover some areas it doesn't or doesn't cover well enough. I'm even willing to admit that some of the classes/instructors may not employ the most effective use of their class time. Could it be improved overall? Absolutely. However one thing it isn't in its current form is irrelevant. The vast majority of the content is applicable to all firefighters, well at least the ones actually doing the work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Exactly which state's version of NFPA1001 are you touting as the "industry standard"? The basic 90 hour class offered in LA? The 160 hour class offered by another state? The 240-hour version offered by PA?

    The simple fact is the basic FFI class was designed to be the "national standard". The problem is most states have bastardized the course so that it will be unique. There are some states that require either the wrtitten or the practical portion of the test be re-taken if you want to transfer. There are some states will not accept it as a transfer without an IFSAC seal. There are others that will not accept it as a transfer without a ProBoard seal. And there are others that do not accept transfers at all.

    So where is the "industry standard'?

    Again, if I could take the basic 90-hour class here and transfer it to any state, that would be a national standard. As it sits now, that's not the case.
    Yes, there are variations from state to state. Yes, there are states that will not recognize certifications from certain other states. Yes, it would be great if the certification was uniform nationwide.

    Regardless, the common thread of it being the "industry standard" comes from it all being based on the content of the NFPA 1001 standard.

    All of the above descriptions can be used to describe EMS certification in this country. The "industry standard" for EMS provider training (ambulance based in particular) is EMT at it's various levels from Basic to Paramedic. All of the training programs are derived from the same source - DOT National Standard Curriculum. Most states have their own variations in use. Not all states will grant reciprocity for another states certification. Even though there is a National Registry certification for EMTs, not all states recognize it.

    Sure, it would be nice if it wasn't that way and one could easily transfer certification from one state to any other. However, the fact that you can't doesn't preclude the various levels of EMT from being the "industry standard" for EMS.

    So, the arguement that the lack of a national commonality/reciprocity for FF1 detracts from it being the industry standard is weak at best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You have to admit. That's a pretty remarkable resemblance.
    His, mine or both?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Actually it took me awhile to decide if I should acknowledge it or not ....

    It was sorta funny, but also sorta sad.
    I've removed your photo per your request.

    Although you mentioned reporting it as a "Terms of Service" violation, I am unsure if using a photo readily-available via the internet would be considered as such. Regardless, I am not here to offend anyone so I removed it as requested.

    Do "rural" Bossier Parish firefighters enjoy agitation around the kitchen table like every other firefighter in the USA? I guess not.
    DFW



    "There's no such thing as a free lunch."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    I've removed your photo per your request.

    Although you mentioned reporting it as a "Terms of Service" violation, I am unsure if using a photo readily-available via the internet would be considered as such. Regardless, I am not here to offend anyone so I removed it as requested.

    Do "rural" Bossier Parish firefighters enjoy agitation around the kitchen table like every other firefighter in the USA? I guess not.
    Good natured kidding, ribbing and ball busting are not part of any NFPA 1001/Firefighter1-2 course, even Bobby's bastardized versions, so obviously it is not part of Bobby's curriculum.

    Come to think of it.. one has to have to have balls in order to bust them...
    slackjawedyokel likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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