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Thread: Another "what were they thinking" video

  1. #221
    MembersZone Subscriber LVFD301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    If anyone other than you and Booby claim that they didn't have to go look up at least three of those words I am calling bull ****aki on them.
    Really? I think you have been watching too much of these guys...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIZio...layer_embedded


  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    If "they" are not willing to train and/or pay attention to the "little stuff", then "they" should choose something else that they are willing to commit to, regardless of how "convenient" (or inconvenient) it is. Furthermore, if the leadership of that organization condones their unwillingness to train (or whatever the activity in question is) and their lack of desire to pay attention to the "little stuff", then the leadership is just as much at fault (if not more) than the people who are not willing to commit the time and effort.

    I fully agree as it my expecatation that a member of a fire department - career, POC or volunteer - will meet the training requirements of that department. If they don't they should be either fired or in the case of volunteers, removed from the department. And yes, if the leadership allows a member who does not train to continue as a member they are not doing their jobs.

    Training, especially for volunteers, will not always be conveinent. Training for volunteers will involve giving up freetime and will involve giving up a time spent on a sport, activity or simply lesiure time. And they need to be told that upfront when they express an interest or apply. Yes, I expect members to commit. But the other edge of the sword is that the leaders of the department need to develop fair and reasonable expectations regarding performance and participation.

    That being said, training needs must be weighed against what is reasonable to expect from a volunteer. Not only are excessiove training requirements unfair, bit they will also lead to a lack of membership, which will in the long run, decrease the effectiveness of the department.

    You consider FFI for a rural department to be a reasonable request. I don't. That is what this boils down to.



    So the answer is to "dumb down" the fire service by only requiring folks to train and operate in a manner convenient to them? Said another way, if one is unable to commit to the requirements of being a firefighter, why on Earth would I take them into an organization and say "just do whatever you think is fun; don't worry about the rest of the stuff... we don't want you to be inconvenienced, bored, or frustrated"?

    I don't consider not requiring FFI "dumbing down" the fire service. I do consider expecting members to train on the equipment, apparatus and situations they will encounter a member of that fire department as relevant and applicable training, and a fair sized chunk of FFI does not apply. As I have stated earlier, I may consider supporting mandatory certification if there was a Rural FFI class without the Operations Level requirement, which would be shorter and specific to rural operations. That would also, in LA, have to be accompanied by an increase in funding to LSU FETI to either deliver the program or develop a train the trainer program for it's delivery to rural areas.

    I have no issues with any department requiring a minimum entry level training requirement of a reasonable length for all new members, and never stated that I did. I have stated that I beleive that should be the case in all agencies. I just beleive that should be a department-level program, like the 50-hour class used by my previous VFD, the Probtionary Skills Checklist used by my current combo department or the 42-hour Rookie Class recently adopted by my VFD, as compared to a mandated FFI. Again, if you were to voice support for a roughly 50-hour Rural FFI certification, we would have some common ground and could have a discussion. As it stands, we have little common ground.

    In fact, if a department chooses to require FFI, that's cool. Even FFII would be fine. The point is, as a department they looked at their training needs, and as a department, decided that is what they needed. The problem that i have is mandated FFI for all departments, irregardless of size.

    You are hung up on FFI. I'm not and never will be.



    Following an industry standard promotes just what the name implies - it promotes a "standard" level of ability and/or service that can be expected for anyone who meets it.

    And why is that so important?

    There is very little standard about the US fire service. Apparatus? Nope. Radio terminolgy? Hell no. Hose couplings? Nope. department structure? Nope. If you start looking closely every department is very different and yet you want a generic vanillia course to cover all fire departments rookies everywhere. Sorry, but doesn't work.


    A fire will injure and/or kill anyone regardless of your age, gender, experience-level, training, and yes, believe it or not, regardless of whether you get a paycheck or not for being a firefighter.

    Never said it wouldn't, but the hazrads that will kill a firefighter differs greatly from place to place. Yes, my rural guys could be killed operating in a 5-story building just as easily as a urban guy except we have no such animals and they never will be operating in one. The refinery just down the street could kill the paid guys in a city department 40 miles from here, but guess what, they likely never will be called if a fire occurs.

    The fact is FFI does not talk about many rural hazards that my rural guys need to know but does talk a lot about surburban and even urban issues that will have zero affect on thier ability to stay alive as they will likely never be operating in such. All it does is taskes time away from what they truly need to spend time on.

    As I have stated there are many things in FFI that will have zero impact on them not being killed or injured.


    To say a "volunteer" firefighter does not need to meet the same standards as a "career" firefighter is absurd. It has nothing to do with getting a paycheck. It has everything to do with safely operating on an incident scene with regards to yourself, your fellow firefighters, and the people in the community you serve.

    If most career members covered the same type of areas as rural volunteers did I would agree 100%, but that's not the case. Urban areas, which are generally covered by career personnel, have a greater variety of structures and hazards, requiring a far greater skill set. There is no way that you can disagree with that.

    Volunteer skill sets can often be easily identified, and taught in a shorter time frame. If you disagree with that, so be it.



    I'll answer that again.

    You cannot see the forest because of the trees. You repeatedly cite the standpipe example. It's a bigger issue than "standpipes". It is providing people with knowledge to perform their jobs effectively and safely. Furthermore, learning the stuff you think is irreleavant or not applicable to your jurisdiction provides them with a knowledge base in which to draw upon.

    And I do believe in doing just that. Our disagreement is what defines there job. I define the job as the operations of that fire department. You define the job as envisoned by a committee composed of members from a variety of fire departments. I am training personnel to function as a member of my specific department - either my combo or VFD - and not training them to perform as a firefighter based on general view of the fire service.

    If they have the time and drive to expand thier knowledge through either non-certification or certification classes, or certifcation tesing, I encourage that. I'll teach it. I'll pay for them to take the class and hotels for out of town classes. I'll pay for their testing. I'll reward them. I'll acknowledge it by posting thier names on a certification board for the entire department and visitors to see. But i'm not going to require it and drive off perfectly capable members because they don't have the time or desire for promtion or general knowledge. Sorry, it just won't happen.



    Since you seem to be really interested in my opinion of standpipes in rural Bossier Parish, let me help think this one through a bit. You said you have zero, i.e. "none" standpipes in your district correct? What other tools, equipment, and accessories have characteristics that are similar to standpipes?

    Certainly there are links to other operations, but again, how relevant is it to day to day operations?

    In a perfect world we would have unlimited time to teach therm everything we think they should know, but the world isn't perfect, and we have a finite amount of time for training, especially volunteers. That means deciding what is the most important.

    We just had this discussion regarding getting into vehicle stabilzation on my VFD. We currently do no vehicle stabilzation or extrication, and rely on a neighboring department 100% for all extrication operations. We recently have decided to purchase rescue struts and cribbing to stabilze while we wait for the neighboring department. There was significant discussion regarding the additional training and would we be adding training requirements that would overload them in terms of additional training time, as it was a legtimate concern. In fact, there was far more discussion over this than there was over the cost.

    We decided, with some disagreement, to move ahead, but in the end we may overlaod them, and the cost will likely be a couple of mebersunable to commit. The cost may also be a choice down the line between keeping up stabilzation skills at the cost of fire skills.

    As far as FFI, it has it's place. In the rural enviroment, IMO it's place is not as a mandated rookie class.



    I support honing a firefighter's skills and knowledge based upon the needs of the district he or she protects after completion of an NFPA 1001 training program based upon industry standards.
    And again, that's our fundamental disagreement. I see required department developed specific training (which could include FFI if that is what the department decided) followed by optional general knowledge training - FFI/FFII - as the way to train rural personnel
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-01-2012 at 04:58 PM.
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  3. #223
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    I don't consider not requiring FFI "dumbing down" the fire service. I do consider expecting members to train on the equipment, apparatus and situations they will encounter a member of that fire department as relevant and applicable training, and a fair sized chunk of FFI does not apply.
    What of these very basic requirements are not applicable to your department?
    1 firefighter orientation
    2 firefighter safety and health
    3 fire behavior
    4 building construction
    5 firefighter ppe
    6 portable fire extinguishers
    7 ropes and knots
    8 rescue and extrication
    9 forcible entry
    10 ground ladders
    11 ventilation
    12 water supply
    13 fire hose
    14 fire streams
    15 fire control
    16 Fire Detection, Alarm, and Suppression Systems
    17 loss control
    18 Protecting Fire Scene Evidence
    19 Fire Department Communications
    21 Emergency Medical Care
    22 Introduction to Hazardous Materials
    23 Operations at HazMat Incidents

    Funny, all these apply to my current career (read professional), and my former vollie department.
    On the career side, we added to the basics with firefighter 2, haz-mat ops and specialist training, high rise training, advanced ventilation techniques due to **** lofts and voids due to our area specific construction, large area searches, searching above a fire floor, VES, advance auto, truck, bus, rail extrication due to the interstates and many rail yards, water operations due to the river, ice rescue as we have ice in the winter here, and the list goes on.
    You are very typical of whats wrong with society nowdays, bring everything to the least common denominator, not progress and achieve.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 08-01-2012 at 06:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    What of these very basic requirements are not applicable to your department?
    1 firefighter orientation
    2 hours
    2 firefighter safety and health
    2 hours
    3 fire behavior
    2 hours
    4 building construction
    Could easily be taught in 1 hour in the rural world with heavy focus on Type III, Type IV, mobile homes and farm buildings..
    5 firefighter ppe
    3 hours including some SCBA bottle time.
    6 portable fire extinguishers
    1 hour/2 at the absolute max
    7 ropes and knots
    Not truly applicable in the rural world .. Could be skipped
    8 rescue and extrication
    Not a basic skill for rural firefighters .. Could be taught in a followup class.
    9 forcible entry
    Rural world ... 1 hour
    10 ground ladders
    Basic skills with 24', roof ladders and some practice time .... 2 hours .. 3 hours max.
    11 ventilation
    2 hours .. 3 hours max.
    12 water supply
    Rural world .. 3 hours classroom and practical .. all water shuttle operations.
    13 fire hose
    1 hour
    14 fire streams
    2 hours including practical skills
    15 fire control
    If you include brush and vehicle fires .. 5-6 hours
    16 Fire Detection, Alarm, and Suppression Systems
    Not needed at all in the rural world.
    17 loss control
    1 hour
    18 Protecting Fire Scene Evidence
    Followup class.
    19 Fire Department Communications
    1 hour
    21 Emergency Medical Care
    Unless they run EMS ... not needed, except for maybe CPR as a followup class.
    22 Introduction to Hazardous Materials
    4 hours
    23 Operations at HazMat Incidents
    Not needed as in LA most VFDs use the State Police for haz-mat.

    Funny, all these apply to my current career (read professional), and my former vollie department.
    On the career side, we added to the basics with firefighter 2, haz-mat ops and specialist training, high rise training, advanced ventilation techniques due to **** lofts and voids due to our area specific construction, large area searches, searching above a fire floor, VES, advance auto, truck, bus, rail extrication due to the interstates and many rail yards, water operations due to the river, ice rescue as we have ice in the winter here, and the list goes on.
    You are very typical of whats wrong with society nowdays, bring everything to the least common denominator, not progress and achieve.

    32-36 hours and I can cover the basics for rural operations that will get them started. Throw in 2 hours of search, 2 more hours of SCBA practical, 3 hours of firefighter survival and a 6-8 hours of burn time and I can teach the basics of rural operations in 50-55 hours.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-01-2012 at 09:54 PM.
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  5. #225
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    So it's basically all applicable, the entire IFSTA chapters required for Fire Fighter 1. Fairly contradictory to the root of your argument.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    If anyone other than you and Booby claim that they didn't have to go look up at least three of those words I am calling bull ****aki on them.
    What if I didn't have to look up any of them?

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    So it's basically all applicable, the entire IFSTA chapters required for Fire Fighter 1. Fairly contradictory to the root of your argument.
    Never stated that a majority of the chapters did not apply.

    My argument is that the depth of each area required for rural personnel is not the same as for FFI.

    As you see, I can cover what the rural member needs to know in 1/2 the time required for FFI.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-02-2012 at 04:12 AM.
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  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never stated that a majority of the chapters did not apply.

    My argument is that the depth of each area required for rural personnel is not the same as for FFI.

    As you see, I can cover what the rural member needs to know in 1/2 the time required for FFI.
    Your head is as dense as the concrete and steel protecting the bunker at Norad headquarters in Colorado.

    The components of Firefighter 1 are the basics that every firefighter should know, whether they be urban, suburban or rural.

    In past posts, you have stated that a lot of firefighter 1 doesn't apply to the rural firefighter, flip flopping again, I see...

    There is a saying... "let no man's ghost come back to say that their training failed them"...

    By teaching "Firefighter 1 Lite" and thinking that you are giving rural firefighters the tools needed to perform, the ghosts will come back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never stated that a majority of the chapters did not apply.
    No, you said it. Many times, took me 30 seconds to find just one of those times.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I never said that the topics covered in FFI didn't need to be covered in the rural enviroment, well, with the possible exception of rope. I did say the depth and detail, as well as the generic apporach was not applicable. The fact is rural firefighters don't need to know, as an example, 4 ways to load supply hose, and don't need to know attack hose loads that the department does not use. The same applies with building construction, fire attack and most of the other chapters in FFI.
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    It occurs to me that we need a version of Godwin's Law for this forum, since virtually every thread seems to eventually turn to LAFireEducator and what many view as his skewed views of the fire service.

    LA's Law?
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    its a shame the vid was removed....there's all this discussion and no context

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    It occurs to me that we need a version of Godwin's Law for this forum, since virtually every thread seems to eventually turn to LAFireEducator and what many view as his skewed views of the fire service.

    LA's Law?
    Hey, what the hell .... I like Glenn Beck too.

    First "my line of thinking" was responsible, according to the OP, for the delay in rescue operations in Canada now there's at least on poster that wants to name a law after me.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-02-2012 at 10:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    32-36 hours and I can cover the basics for rural operations that will get them started. Throw in 2 hours of search, 2 more hours of SCBA practical, 3 hours of firefighter survival and a 6-8 hours of burn time and I can teach the basics of rural operations in 50-55 hours.
    You are re-inventing the wheel. For entry level training, NFPA 1001 has already done the work for you AND it is the industry standard for the fire service.

    The "Add 2 hours here; 3 hours there; subtact and hour there; and add a few hours here" aspect is where you hone their training to the apparatus, tools, and incidents that are germane to your department.

    As a side note, I've never been a fan of the whole "hours" thing. I know in theory that if you spend "X" amount of time covering a topic, the average student will be able to meet the learning objectives. I've always liked the "we're going to cover this until you can understand and apply it" approach, regardless if it takes one hour or 100 hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    23 Operations at HazMat Incidents

    Not needed as in LA most VFDs use the State Police for haz-mat.
    Are you really going to sit around for several hours waiting for LSP Haz Mat to come from Baton Rouge or Holden to "rural Bossier Parish"? I have no issue with not intervening with something you are neither equipped nor trained to handle but there are alot of support operations (i.e. HazMat Awareness and HazMat Operations tasks) that will need to be undertaken from the beginning of the incident, while waiting for LSP to arrive, supporting LSP at the scene, and de-escalating the incident.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    No, you said it. Many times, took me 30 seconds to find just one of those times.
    Here's post 153 .....

    hen please explain in detail how the things I cited above are not applicable as baseline information and skill sets for a rural fire department. If you can't see that the information and skill sets contained in the FF1 curriculum is applicable to a rural fire department, then I would have to say that you are unfit to be a fire service instructor/educator of any sorts.

    I never said that the topics covered in FFI didn't need to be covered in the rural enviroment, well, with the possible exception of rope. I did say the depth and detail, as well as the generic apporach was not applicable. The fact is rural firefighters don't need to know, as an example, 4 ways to load supply hose, and don't need to know attack hose loads that the department does not use. Rookie volunteer firefighters in both the rural and surburban enviroments need to learn how to do what THIER department does with THIER departments tools and equipment, not generic information on several possible ways to load hose.

    The same applies with building construction, fire attack and most of the other chapters in FFI.






    Clearly stated in that post all the way back on page 7 that all the chapters, with the exception of one or two would need to be covered, but in much less depth than FFI, as I posted above.

    In SPFDRum's post #223 he listed Extrication, which is a FFII skill, as well as Awareness and Ops, which here are standalone classes that would not be part of FFI.

    If you remove that, most of the topics should be covered in a short rural rookie class.

    Find some other posts. I have clearly stated that most of the topics do need to be covered in some fashion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never stated that a majority of the chapters did not apply.
    Yes you have. I'll be happy to quote you if it'll help "jog" your memory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    You are re-inventing the wheel. For entry level training, NFPA 1001 has already done the work for you AND it is the industry standard for the fire service.

    The "Add 2 hours here; 3 hours there; subtact and hour there; and add a few hours here" aspect is where you hone their training to the apparatus, tools, and incidents that are germane to your department.

    As a side note, I've never been a fan of the whole "hours" thing. I know in theory that if you spend "X" amount of time covering a topic, the average student will be able to meet the learning objectives. I've always liked the "we're going to cover this until you can understand and apply it" approach, regardless if it takes one hour or 100 hours.

    Not a huge fan of scheduling by hours either, but it gives you an idea of when you are going to cover what. if they get it faster and the schedule can be moved up, great. if they don't get it and the schedule ne3eds to be opushed back, fine too. I have found that most times a class ends up, in terms of total hours, just about on schedule as the plus and minus adjustments tend to even out.

    As far as reinventing the wheel, we're simply adjusting the wheel. Fot all the classes I have mentioned we are using the FFI format, and in some cases, some of the information, but we are also deleting what is not relevant and adding material from department operations that is.

    The simple fact is that we will never see eye-to-eye on this. I will conced that FFI has been established as the industry standard. That being said I will not agree that it is the best method to train rookie members in the rural enviroment. It simply is too generic, too irrelvant and simply not time effective.




    Are you really going to sit around for several hours waiting for LSP Haz Mat to come from Baton Rouge or Holden to "rural Bossier Parish"? I have no issue with not intervening with something you are neither equipped nor trained to handle but there are alot of support operations (i.e. HazMat Awareness and HazMat Operations tasks) that will need to be undertaken from the beginning of the incident, while waiting for LSP to arrive, supporting LSP at the scene, and de-escalating the incident.
    Small operations - a few gallons of diesel or gas on the ground, we handle. If it's a larger running leak, we perfrom D/D/D operations.

    In LA, law enforcement is responsible for haz-mat, so our first call is to the Sheriff's Office for the Haz-Mat Deputy. He will then call the State Police, who will respond the Haz-mat Trooper(s) assigned to the Troop for that area. AS we are quite close to the troop headquarters, response time for the initial haz-mat trooper is generally less than 30 minutes.

    While we wait, we will operate to contain the incident until they arrive but we take only and necessary defensive actions and no offensive actions. State Police is funded to provide haz-mat and we have very minimal resources in the way of equipment, including no splash or chemical resistant PPE for that reason.

    When they arrive on-scene we will assist as requested, but for the most part, the incident is theirs unless the operation requires fire standby, firefighting and/or foam operations.

    If we have techs avaible (which we do not, as again, it's LSP's job, but a couple of the neighboring districts have one or two), we will assist them at that level if requested, as we did last summer at an incident in my VFDs area.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-02-2012 at 10:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwfirefighter View Post
    Yes you have. I'll be happy to quote you if it'll help "jog" your memory.
    Please do.

    I have in the past stated that in many rural VFDs, Ropes & Knots have minimal or no application as well as Supression and Alarm Systems. In many rural VFDs Forcible Entry may also have very minimal applications.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I fully agree as it my expecatation that a member of a fire department - career, POC or volunteer - will meet the training requirements of that department. If they don't they should be either fired or in the case of volunteers, removed from the department. And yes, if the leadership allows a member who does not train to continue as a member they are not doing their jobs.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But i'm not going to require it and drive off perfectly capable members because they don't have the time or desire for promtion or general knowledge. Sorry, it just won't happen.
    You've contradicted yourself again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Hey, what the hell .... I like Glenn Beck too.
    First Limbaugh, and now Beck. Two folks spouting statements that are regularly contradictory, or detached from reality.

    I have no doubt you like them.
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    Although I've already posted most of this previously (to which you never replied), it remains relevant - especially since you requested it.

    Here you go:

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If there truly was a NATIONAL FFI class with the exact same number of hours in EVERY state, I may have slightly different feelings on FFI, but as it stands now, it's basically a load of crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I contention is that FFI is not relevant and applicable baseline training for the rural enviroment.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As I have stated, FFI would be applicable in my previous 2 VFDs, but it's simply not applicable to the needs of either of my 2 current departments.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...FFI is not truly applicable in our situation.
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 08-02-2012 at 10:52 AM.
    DFW



    "There's no such thing as a free lunch."

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