View Poll Results: Should NFPA 1001 FFI be the MINIMUM training requirement for ALL FFs (career or vol)?

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  • No

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Thread: Poll: NFPA 1001-Based Training for New Members

  1. #1
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    Default NFPA 1001-Based Training for Firefighters

    Please answer the poll at the top of this thread.
    Last edited by dfwfirefighter; 07-28-2012 at 12:51 PM.
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    YES, within a reasonable amount of time after the end of probation, we require all members wanting to be interior to obtain the cert within one year after the end of probation (which is one year.)
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    Yes, for personnel wishing to actually fight fires, however I feel that this requirement shouldn't specifically preclude the use of non-FF1 certified personnel in true support based positions within a department.

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    YES, anyone operating at a fire scene, wearing turnout gear and working in the hot, or warm zone of an incident should have Firefighter 1.

    In my opinion support people should stay in the cold zone, and to alleviate confusion should NOT wear the same PPE as firefighters.
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    Yes, da, ja, oui, hai, si!
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    NFPA 1001 (FL Firefighter 1/Minimum standards) is provided to all firefighters at our agency as part of basic training, along with first responder/EMR and all the wildland training
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    YES, anyone operating at a fire scene, wearing turnout gear and working in the hot, or warm zone of an incident should have Firefighter 1.

    In my opinion support people should stay in the cold zone, and to alleviate confusion should NOT wear the same PPE as firefighters.
    I agree, some form of lightweight PPE similar to wildland firefighting PPE should be sufficient for support personnel.

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    As much as I'd like to say yes, I'm going to have to say no...

    Now a days Volunteer fire departments are having more and more problems obtaining members. Mostly because of the amount of time needed to be a fireman. More than half that, is training. I want to agree and say but what about safety, what about this, what about that... But I honestly, as a volly firemen, with a family, with only 1 job, and to maintain a normal life, I don't think FF1 should be needed. Mind you! I do agree that FF1 is an amazing class, a great expirence, and I think in time, every firemen SHOULD have it, but I'm highly against it being a requirement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picc.93Truck View Post
    As much as I'd like to say yes, I'm going to have to say no...

    Now a days Volunteer fire departments are having more and more problems obtaining members. Mostly because of the amount of time needed to be a fireman. More than half that, is training. I want to agree and say but what about safety, what about this, what about that... But I honestly, as a volly firemen, with a family, with only 1 job, and to maintain a normal life, I don't think FF1 should be needed. Mind you! I do agree that FF1 is an amazing class, a great expirence, and I think in time, every firemen SHOULD have it, but I'm highly against it being a requirement.
    As has been said in numerous other threads..... are the fires that volunteer departments get any different than those that a career department gets? Here in Ohio, all that is required for volunteer firefighters is the 36 hr Volunteer Firefighter (FF 1-A) course.... which is ridiculous. It basically covers ppe, scba, search, ladders, and hoses.... or enough to fool someone into thinking that they know enough to fight a fire. Luckily, at my combination department, we are one of the first departments in the state to require that ALL of our volunteer firefighters obtain their full NFPA compliant FF 1 before getting off probation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picc.93Truck View Post
    As much as I'd like to say yes, I'm going to have to say no...

    Now a days Volunteer fire departments are having more and more problems obtaining members. Mostly because of the amount of time needed to be a fireman. More than half that, is training. I want to agree and say but what about safety, what about this, what about that... But I honestly, as a volly firemen, with a family, with only 1 job, and to maintain a normal life, I don't think FF1 should be needed. Mind you! I do agree that FF1 is an amazing class, a great expirence, and I think in time, every firemen SHOULD have it, but I'm highly against it being a requirement.
    I see a few problems with this line of thinking.

    From a PA perspective, the commonly required training course for firefighters in pretty much all departments is the Essentials course, now offered in 4 modules rather than a single all inclusive course. The FF1 testing is based entirely on the curriculum taught in the Essentials course. A person who completes this course should be adequately prepared to challenge the FF1 test. So, the only thing "extra" a person has to do to become FF1 certified is make time to go take the test, possibly traveling some to do it and paying the registration fee if your department won't pay for it.

    I think your argument of why FF1 shouldn't be needed is pretty weak. The fact is, training is a must in order to be able to perform as a firefighter. In PA, much of that initial training will be the Essentials course. The Essentials course is really not that long and onerous in the grand scheme of things. As I pointed out above, once that course has been completed, it's just a matter of taking a test in order to be FF1 certified. I agree that work and family can take up a lot of ones time. However, if a person can't "suck it up" for a couple of months in order to achieve basic entry level training and certification for something as dangerous as firefighting can be, how are they going to be able to handle the rest of "the job" - calls, trainings, meetings, work details, fundraisers, etc.?

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    Ya, I voted No. I do believe there should be a minimum standard, but not sure FF1 is it. Couple parts of it I'd like removed, couple things added.

    But, NJ State FF1 is what my state has mandated, so its what we go with as minimum. And yes, it is the same for volunteer, paid, and everywhere between.
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    Thumbs up And...........

    I voted yes. We require EMT-B, FF I, and some small things like HazMat Awareness, etc. You have 30 Months to get this from the time you join a VFD in our County. In response to a few who question the limited time that people have to Volunteer these days, I don't see that as a problem. If you can't find Time to train, how are you going to find time to do anything else??.........
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    In Pa. a firefighter completes the Essentials of Firefighting Curriculum and is tested to the level of FF1, and then has to pay to take the same test as in Essentials to become FF1 certified. Sounds like a money racket to me. I remember when I first started it was only a 40 hour class. The curriculum changed and was bumped up to 88 hours. Now it is over 100 hrs. When you take your EMT which is over 100 hrs you complete all your training take a local and state level test and are certified without having to pay extra. There are states that when you finish your essentials and test at the end you are FF1 certified. What do you see wrong with this picture? I personally asked the State Fire Commissioner why the process is the way it is. The answer I got was it is what it is.

    My take on this is my own opinion, but I think if you are a volunteer and you want to become FF1 certified kudos to you. But as far as I am concerned it is only a piece of paper that you paid extra money for. I am not a professional, I have the same training as a professional but to pay for a piece of paper that I already took a test for paid nothing and passed. I think it is just a financial burden on volunteers and volunteer departments due to the current state of affairs and the process needs to be changed.

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    I voted NO....at least until FF1 training becomes FUNDED. It's obviously a goal evey VFD should strive for, but many can barely afford to put gas in the trucks. (and yes I mean gasoline, because their trucks are that old) I'd say better than half of the FF's on my POC dept. have FF1 or better. Those that don't, but have been around for a while probably have the cumulative equivilant to FF1 due to all the training we do, they just don't have the paper. That is another thing that should be looked at, aquiring the certification over 3-4 years. It's nice to sit around and play what if's and shoulds', but until a real solution comes up it's kinda moot. I'm just glad my POC dept. puts a strong emphasis on training and building on the 36 hr. cert in Ohio.

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    Voted Yes.

    Sorry to see that it is lost on some that certification is just a piece of paper rather than verification that the cumulative training one has recieved truely does meet a national standard.

    A few in my dept. still stick to this ideology, but only a few.

    Time allowances should be made for volunteers, however as previously stated...fire is not forgiving if you dont heed the necessary training and cares not about your paycheck.

    Would you want a LEO responding to a shooting in the mall where your wife and kids are in danger without the proper training, or will anyone with a gun do?

    Yes, we all serve with a desire to help, but that desire does not protect us from LODD.

    Every state charges differently, and there should be alleviation of cost for those agencies who really cant afford the certification fee, but I have spent considerably more of my own money when I was a volunteer buying the cool stuff.
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    FF1 is a good baseline standard and here funded by the state using "Essentails". BUT FF1 is only as good as the instructor. Often is just "check the box" which is a waste of everyone's time.

    I took class 10yr ago and out of the 80hr perhaps 5hr were worthwhile. I told chief I'd join FD when I had received entry training (just like when joined the Army). FF1 class consisted of instructor reading powerpoint slides right out of the textbook. He didn't know diddly other beyond that "you guys know how that works". In winter so flowed NO water. Hands on "skills" could be completed in the local station can do in a couple nights. Everyone passed (with from zero to 10yr on FD) in spite of worthless instruction so what does that say about the benefit of the course?

    So I'm not that impressed. Even a 1/2assed FD based program of hands on drills using actual FD owned equipment a much better solution if the goal is FF knowledge. BUT at present state standard is no one goes interior unless have had FF1 so play the game.

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    Voted "No".
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Voted "No".


    Why am I not surprised at this answer?




    Do you guys train firefighters at any level, except as yard members?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    Why am I not surprised at this answer?




    Do you guys train firefighters at any level, except as yard members?
    The majority of our volunteer supression personnel are trained as interior personnel. There are those that have chosen not to be trained as interior or were interior but have since decided to no longer operate as such due to physical conditions or time, and now they operate only as exterior.

    As I stated earlier, 60% of our supression personnel are certified as FFI and about half of them are FFII.

    The fact is our rookie training entails all interior aspects of FFI including at least 8 hours of burn time. We simply have eliminated the extrenous crap that does not apply to our operations.

    My volunteer department uses a 42-hour class which includes no libve structural burn time due a lack of burn facilities. We will periodically use the neighboring LSU's burn building and also do vehicle burns on-site, but live fire training is far more limited than my combo department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-03-2012 at 12:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireinfo10 View Post
    FF1 is a good baseline standard and here funded by the state using "Essentails". BUT FF1 is only as good as the instructor. Often is just "check the box" which is a waste of everyone's time.

    I took class 10yr ago and out of the 80hr perhaps 5hr were worthwhile. I told chief I'd join FD when I had received entry training (just like when joined the Army). FF1 class consisted of instructor reading powerpoint slides right out of the textbook. He didn't know diddly other beyond that "you guys know how that works". In winter so flowed NO water. Hands on "skills" could be completed in the local station can do in a couple nights. Everyone passed (with from zero to 10yr on FD) in spite of worthless instruction so what does that say about the benefit of the course?

    So I'm not that impressed. Even a 1/2assed FD based program of hands on drills using actual FD owned equipment a much better solution if the goal is FF knowledge. BUT at present state standard is no one goes interior unless have had FF1 so play the game.
    First of all, if the instructor was that bad, did anyone complain? Did any chief of any department with members in that class go to the entity presenting the class and state that the instructor was doing a poor job? Did anyone complain BEFORE the class ended? Or did you all suffer through it and THEN complain?

    You see I am a state certified fire service instructor for the local tech college and the very first night of class I tell my students how to contact my boss for any issues we can't deal with in class. I even hand out the end of course instructor eval the first night and encourage them to write comments both good and bad on it all the way through the course. I am dead dog serious about wanting feedback. I talk about my teaching style, I let them know I do NOT stand up in front of the class I like to move around and engage people. I also tell them to IMMEDIATELY tell me if there is an issue with my teaching style, like if they can't hear me, or I am going too fast or too slow.

    Secondly, we do teach in the local firehouses and we use their equipment, unless it is something specialize they don't have, or we are going to the burn tower for evolutions. To me it makes perfect sense to use the equipment they will use. The only time that can get hinky is if you are in a small FD with only 1 engine or 1 tender. You don't want to strip so much equipment that they would be out of service.

    Thirdly, if an FD schedules a class during winter months then they must expect that they will deal with cold and snow. Obviously sub-zero days are an issue, but temps in the 20's and 30's are no big deal and we have done driver operator pumping days with it that cold.

    It is imperative that FDs that are unhappy with training supplied to them make that known to the agency supplying the training. Otherwise nothing ever changes except the location that the bad instructor is teaching at!

    By the way,while I do start with the canned programs supplied to me, I add my own material, more pictures, and an occasional video. I also add some short pertinant stories to help empasize topics, BUT I do NOT devolve into story telling versus educating.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 08-03-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    First of all, if the instructor was that bad, did anyone complain? Did any chief of any department with members in that class go to the entity presenting the class and state that the instructor was doing a poor job? Did anyone complain BEFORE the class ended? Or did you all suffer through it and THEN complain?

    You see I am a state certified fire service instructor for the local tech college and the very first night of class I tell my students how to contact my boss for any issues we can't deal with in class. I even hand out the end of course instructor eval the first night and encourage them to write comments both good and bad on it all the way through the course. I am dead dog serious about wanting feedback. I talk about my teaching style, I let them know I do NOT stand up in front of the class I like to move around and engage people. I also tell them to IMMEDIATELY tell me if there is an issue with my teaching style, like if they can't hear me, or I am going too fast or too slow.

    Secondly, we do teach in the local firehouses and we use their equipment, unless it is something specialize they don't have, or we are going to the burn tower for evolutions. To me it makes perfect sense to use the equipment they will use. The only time that can get hinky is if you are in a small FD with only 1 engine or 1 tender. You don't want to strip so much equipment that they would be out of service.

    Thirdly, if an FD schedules a class during winter months then they must expect that they will deal with cold and snow. Obviously sub-zero days are an issue, but temps in the 20's and 30's are no big deal and we have done driver operator pumping days with it that cold.

    It is imperative that FDs that are unhappy with training supplied to them make that known to the agency supplying the training. Otherwise nothing ever changes except the location that the bad instructor is teaching at!

    By the way,while I do start with the canned programs supplied to me, I add my own material, more pictures, and an occasional video. I also add some short pertinant stories to help empasize topics, BUT I do NOT devolve into story telling versus educating.
    That's great. But not all instructors are like you.
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    So here's the ultimate question to make the poll a moot point. How do we make it so that VFD's can afford, and have time, for their members or recruits to get FF1 certification? That's really what we should be looking into. "Should we, or shouldn't we..." is actually moot. The question now is "How do we..."?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    That's great. But not all instructors are like you.
    I agree, and that more or less was the jist of my post. We as students do NOT have to accept poor instructors. I can tell you my immediate supervisor doesn't. Complaints get acted on. The biggest reason poor instructors don't get dealt with is the failure to file a complaint.

    To me, how I instruct comes from how I like to be instructed. If all you are going to do is put Power Points up on the screen, read the slide, and not add anything, your own experiences, additional pictures, information you learned elsewhere, or anything at all, I don't need an instructor. Send me the Power Points on a flash drive and I can read them myself. I want an instructor that can make me want to listen to the information they are passing on. That comes from experience, knowledge, and enthusiasm for instructing.

    I hate to sound like a crusty old dude but part of the problem lies with young, inexperienced firefighters taking Educational Methodolgy and getting their Instructor Certification and believing that alone makes them an instructor. When I started out we were assigned a mentor instructor and we observed, then we taught part of a class and were critiqued and told where we needed to improve. Then we taught an entire night and were critiqued again. We were not allowed to teach on our own until our mentor said we were ready.

    Another problem is instructor laziness, and either new or veteran instructors can fall into this mold. They get handed canned programs, do little or no prep, and go out to teach. These instructors can absolutely KILL enthusiasm for a class by clicking slide after slide and reading them.

    Student firefighters and their Chiefs need to speak up about bad instructors,but the corrolary is they also need to speak up about good instructors too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willy53 View Post
    In Pa. a firefighter completes the Essentials of Firefighting Curriculum and is tested to the level of FF1, and then has to pay to take the same test as in Essentials to become FF1 certified. Sounds like a money racket to me. I remember when I first started it was only a 40 hour class. The curriculum changed and was bumped up to 88 hours. Now it is over 100 hrs. When you take your EMT which is over 100 hrs you complete all your training take a local and state level test and are certified without having to pay extra. There are states that when you finish your essentials and test at the end you are FF1 certified. What do you see wrong with this picture? I personally asked the State Fire Commissioner why the process is the way it is. The answer I got was it is what it is.
    I agree that FF1 certification should be a part of the Essentials course. I firmly believe that it could easily become that way if the volunteer fire service of PA wanted it to be that way. However, I suspect that (overall) they don't want it to be that way.

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    Yes -FF1 is just a foundation to build on. And in Arkansas training is free. Instructors will come to your station and teach weekend classes. Also any firefighter paid or volly can attend rookie school (Firefighter standards FF2-(6 weeks) free.
    And if you allow a 2nd rate clown of an instructor to slide by -SHAME ON YOU. Let their boss know.
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