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Thread: Load release Hitches

  1. #21
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    Do you know the reasons for this? Just wondering the thinking for the switch. Our training officer seems pretty confident using the mariner.
    After all, a RPM system is defined as Rack, Pulley, Mariner.
    Not knocking the Mariner, if that is what you use and train with, have become profficent with, then use it. If that is the LRH that your boss says to use, than go with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdcalamia View Post
    I can't speak for Drew, but the popular reason seems to be the results of the BCCTR Belay Competency testing. Potential for fusing under shock-load. It is slightly more equipment intensive (3 carabiners instead of 2). Could be an issue for some areas. The RPM comes from out west, California I believe. Anymore when I teach I just replace the "M" with an "L" for load releasing hitch. No need to limit everyone's options simply by using an acronym. The basics are essential to know, but with modern technology and innovations, if you can't afford the MPD the Petzl ID is a less expensive more viable option. If I remember correctly, the BC and the Radium scored the best in all 9 areas examined out of the 30 (34?) some LRHs tested. If you have to use an LRH instead, use one of these, they have proven themselves. Also, since you are newer in your career don't get caught up in thing such as acronyms and one way of doing things. That's the beauty of technical rescue, there are many acceptable ways to accomplish the same task. You're doing the right thing by throwing your thoughts out here, this place is full of great educated and experienced members willing to share their expertise!
    After playing around with many diffrent types of LRH's the radium won out as the perfered method here. The RRH is just simple, and we are trying to keep all our systems as basic as possible.

    I like the Petzel alot, but it is very rope size specific and we only have it for the 12 mil. We have started to use ropes of diffrent sizes (9mil mainly for SRT and personal carry rope, 12mil for hauls and two person). Can't see paying for the MPD when we can do what we need already without.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist


  2. #22
    Moderator ProgressiveRescue's Avatar
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    Its funny this thread caught my eye today because I've been having a similar discussion in a few of my classes. I'm a big fan of the MPD because of it's simplicity, versatility and the fact that it lightens my gear load in an operation. Being that the MPD eliminates the need for a LRH I was curious if you feel guys or departments that have MPD's will lose the skill of building and using a LRH. I agree the price point is a bit high however when you look at the gear it replaces and the time it saves to me it's a good investment.

    -Mike-
    "Training Prepares You...For Moments That Define You

  3. #23
    Forum Member MichaelXYZ's Avatar
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    I know I really don't have the experience to chime in here, but I would think it a mistake for a department to only train exclusively with a MPD. Would it not be prudent to be trained in both? We are often taught to be prepared for back up plans as the ideal world always has a way of tilting in the wrong direction. The what if scenarios should always be priority on a T.O's to do list. What if the MPD breaks or is misplaced? The Jack of all trades but master of none does not work well in the rescue world. Well, that's what I think anyways.

  4. #24
    Moderator ProgressiveRescue's Avatar
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    Great points Mike and I agree. I used to focus a lot on the "what If's" which is good don't get me wrong but if it get's out of hand it could hamper your performance and the operation as a whole. I agree you should be trained in both types and once you've mastered those skills then you can make a personal choice as to what you prefer. I honestly always tend to use the MPD now for a multitude of reasons...but that's just me and what I like.
    -Mike_
    "Training Prepares You...For Moments That Define You

  5. #25
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    The sewn mariners hitches from CMC and Rescue Technology are simply not long enough for all applications. I remember my first exposure to them and I crapped my pants when I was out of throw and still needed a few feet to pass the load!!

    The radium is a great hitch when used with 6 mm cord. Thicker than that and it can have too much friction. The hokie is ok...I don't use it as its just too bulky and troublesome for my liking.

    Many have hit on it but ALL rope buffs should have a mini-haul (Aztec, Jigger..). This is a most bang for your buck piece of gear.

    MPD....I've only used one once; can't seem to talk CMC to send us one to demo. Seems like a great, yet pricey piece of gear. To bring the conversation full circle, you would still need some type of release to get a knot through the system, correct? My point is, no matter what new high end piece of gear shows up, it will never replace the need to maintain proficiency on basic rope skills and techniques.

  6. #26
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    You CAN pass a knot through an MPD based system without a load releasing hitch if you use an MPD for the belay line as well. You have to tie off your mainline to do it to maintain a true two rope system for the entire operation.
    I used to be DCFDRescue 2. Forum changover locked me out.

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  7. #27
    Forum Member MichaelXYZ's Avatar
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    The thing I don't like about the radium is all the excess rope you have to deal with. Won't 15 foot radium as opposed to 30 foot still be good?

  8. #28
    Forum Member jdcalamia's Avatar
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    The radium is basically a dirty 3:1, which cuts your throw by a factor of 3 right off the bat. So a 15 foot piece of cordage will provide you with less than 5 foot of throw, which depending on your operation could really jam you up. The typical 33 feet that is used gives you about a 10 foot throw (lose 3' for knots, bends, etc... just to be conservative) much more workable for multiple raise/lower switches, the occasional loaded belay, etc...When you pre-rig your LRHs, try putting the excess into a small accessory type bag, it manages it well, or daisy chain it and stay on top of it.
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
    Firefighter/Flight Paramedic
    Broomall, PA

  9. #29
    Moderator ProgressiveRescue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue 2 Training View Post
    You CAN pass a knot through an MPD based system without a load releasing hitch if you use an MPD for the belay line as well. You have to tie off your mainline to do it to maintain a true two rope system for the entire operation.
    Good point Kelly....So simple,less equipment seems like a no brainer to me. I do understand the importance of staying sharp with all your skills even if something bigger and better has replaced them. I just hate to see guys discount a new piece of gear just because it's new or not the way they were taught.
    -Mike-
    "Training Prepares You...For Moments That Define You

  10. #30
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdcalamia View Post
    ...When you pre-rig your LRHs, try putting the excess into a small accessory type bag, it manages it well, or daisy chain it and stay on top of it.
    when you daisy chain the radium, make sure you start at the tail end AWAY FROM the hitch so it can play off into the LRH. otherwise you'll have to unchain the whole thing before being able to use it.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

  11. #31
    Forum Member MichaelXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdcalamia View Post
    The radium is basically a dirty 3:1, which cuts your throw by a factor of 3 right off the bat. So a 15 foot piece of cordage will provide you with less than 5 foot of throw, which depending on your operation could really jam you up. The typical 33 feet that is used gives you about a 10 foot throw (lose 3' for knots, bends, etc... just to be conservative) much more workable for multiple raise/lower switches, the occasional loaded belay, etc...When you pre-rig your LRHs, try putting the excess into a small accessory type bag, it manages it well, or daisy chain it and stay on top of it.
    I never thought about the 3;1 MA, now the length makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

  12. #32
    Forum Member MichaelXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmatthe2 View Post
    The sewn mariners hitches from CMC and Rescue Technology are simply not long enough for all applications. I remember my first exposure to them and I crapped my pants when I was out of throw and still needed a few feet to pass the load!!

    The radium is a great hitch when used with 6 mm cord. Thicker than that and it can have too much friction. The hokie is ok...I don't use it as its just too bulky and troublesome for my liking.

    Many have hit on it but ALL rope buffs should have a mini-haul (Aztec, Jigger..). This is a most bang for your buck piece of gear.

    MPD....I've only used one once; can't seem to talk CMC to send us one to demo. Seems like a great, yet pricey piece of gear. To bring the conversation full circle, you would still need some type of release to get a knot through the system, correct? My point is, no matter what new high end piece of gear shows up, it will never replace the need to maintain proficiency on basic rope skills and techniques.
    If you had thicker cord, say 8mm; could you just do away with the munter to compensate for the added friction?

    I tried to google Aztec Jigger, but turned up nothing,
    Last edited by MichaelXYZ; 09-27-2012 at 05:26 AM.

  13. #33
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    Here you go: AZTEK

    We use 8mm cord for our Radium Release Hitches all the time, and have not noticed any problem with too much friction. I would consider the ultimate strength of the system before you decided to go to a 6mm cord.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoboy View Post
    Here you go: AZTEK

    We use 8mm cord for our Radium Release Hitches all the time, and have not noticed any problem with too much friction. I would consider the ultimate strength of the system before you decided to go to a 6mm cord.
    RIGHT! 6mm would probably hold, but 8mm has been tested and documented to hold. 8mm with a Munter does not have too much friction. If you have an NFPA two person load (600 lbs), even with a 3: 1 MA, you are still having to hold 200 lbs on 8mm cordage. No I'm not taking into account the friction of the cordage on the biners. But try holding on to even 125 lbs of weight hanging vertically on a strand of 8mm. Difficult.
    I used to be DCFDRescue 2. Forum changover locked me out.

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