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Thread: Fire Hose

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    Default Fire Hose

    My department is looking to purchase new hose(1 3/4" hi-rise & 1 3/4" attack) next year. Any recommendations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by redean View Post
    My department is looking to purchase new hose(1 3/4" hi-rise & 1 3/4" attack) next year. Any recommendations?
    Don't take anyone's word for much, conduct your own testing. We found that friction loss and kink figures were not accurate in most cases. Re-think 1.75" for high rise hose if you have older buildings?

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    Talk with your neighbors, too. They'll tell you stuff the salesman won't.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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    I was too honest as a salesperson! If someone wanted to buy something I was selling and I knew it was crap I told them so. A Chief thanked me last night for talking him out of buying the turn out gear the company I worked for sold!!

    Nope not selling anymore...I was too trained to tell the truth to be a good salesman.

    Ask for hose to test, if the salesman won't give you any move along to the next guy. One thing to keep in mind is that there is hose made in China being sold by some of the big name hose companies.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 08-14-2012 at 02:50 PM.
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    Agreed on the demo thing. If the salesman won't come out and give you a demo of his product you don't need to consider him as a potential vendor. We did flow tests with All American and Key when we bought new attack hose last year. Our Fire Equip. dealer also offered a test, but due to some questions of where that particular brand comes from they weren't considered.

    We were in the market for "high end" hose (low friction loss, kink resistant, higher flows) and ended up with Ponn Conquest. The warranty was hard to say no to. And so were the friction loss numbers.

    For the most part the whole premium hose thing is new to this area. A neighboring department runs Angus Hi-Combat and another runs Key Combat Ready. For the most part we all are satisfied. After seeing the flow and pressure numbers we will never go back to low bid attack hose. It packs better and works better with our low pressure, high flow nozzles.

    The suggestion of 2 1/2" hose for high rise packs is a good one. Don't use low manpower (or anything else) as an excuse to use smaller hose where larger hose is needed. The system is designed for it anyway.
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    Buy American.

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    redean,

    A completely serious suggestion from me is to switch to 2 inch for at least your high rise packs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Buy American.
    Agree 100% -used to 99%of fire equipment was American (or some Canadian)- now not the case.
    Hold their feet to the fire and dont just ask "TRUST BUT VERIFY"
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    redean,

    A completely serious suggestion from me is to switch to 2 inch for at least your high rise packs.
    2" line should be the absolute minimum for a highrise pack, 2 1/2" if at all possible. (And you don't just have to use it for a highrise)

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Buy American.
    Even though you can possibly get less expensive, better performing stuff? That's a hard thing to justify to accountants.
    ATFDFF and Mr. D. like this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Even though you can possibly get less expensive, better performing stuff? That's a hard thing to justify to accountants.
    Accountants should stick to adding numbers, and paying bills. They should let you know how much you have in your budget, not what to spend it on. Any accountant that tells you that you should buy a certain product because it's cheaper than what you've spec'd after you and your committee have done all the research should be B!#ch slapped.
    Having said that, unless something is significantly cheaper AND better, Buy American. I know of some hose that has to go out and back in through customs for repair. That's probably gonna wipe out any price advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Even though you can possibly get less expensive, better performing stuff? That's a hard thing to justify to accountants.
    When the imports run the American companies out of business,the imports will mysteriously go up in price.
    ?

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    are your "hi-rise" buildings of Fireproof material? (cinder block construction; poured concrete)

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    2" line should be the absolute minimum for a highrise pack, 2 1/2" if at all possible. (And you don't just have to use it for a highrise)
    Just curious as to what your reasoning is for this. We have 100' of 1 1/2" hose line for our racks and this is in a city with more high rises than most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    2" line should be the absolute minimum for a highrise pack, 2 1/2" if at all possible. (And you don't just have to use it for a highrise)
    2.5" highrise packs are fine (and appropriate) for commercial, manufacturing, and industrial applications, but 1.75" or 2" are very appropriate for many "true" highrise applications.
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    As to the OP, I agree with the others about getting a demo.

    As for the hose itself, we have a couple million feet of the "original" Ponn Conquest hose at work. It does a pretty good job with the increased GPM flow, but it does like to kink more than I care for. They've since introduced a blend that doesn't kink as much, but from what I've heard from a couple of folks that have field tested it, it doesn't pack and fold quite as easily.

    Personally, I like the Key Combat Ready hose, based on it's GPM flow and resistance to kink, even when using a smooth-bore handline pressure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipeman1822 View Post
    Just curious as to what your reasoning is for this. We have 100' of 1 1/2" hose line for our racks and this is in a city with more high rises than most.
    When fighting a highrise fire, you are already have a situation where you have to overcome head (height) with added pressure. Using smaller diameter hose means you have higher friction loss, adding to the already high pressure that you have to pump at for proper nozzle pressure.

    Just using basic fire flow calculations show that there is absolutely NO WAY you should use 1 1/2' hose for high rise ops. If it's in a hose cabinet for first responders or occupants that's different. Most places I know of only use 1 1/2" for car and dumpster fires.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    When fighting a highrise fire, you are already have a situation where you have to overcome head (height) with added pressure. Using smaller diameter hose means you have higher friction loss, adding to the already high pressure that you have to pump at for proper nozzle pressure.

    Just using basic fire flow calculations show that there is absolutely NO WAY you should use 1 1/2' hose for high rise ops. If it's in a hose cabinet for first responders or occupants that's different. Most places I know of only use 1 1/2" for car and dumpster fires.
    It's quite simple actually. Standpipe systems are designed and built to be used with 2 1/2" hose and smooth bore nozzles. Anyone who advocates anything other than what the system is meant for is WRONG. Meaning, if you use 1 3/4" hose, you're WRONG. If you use fog nozzles, you're WRONG. If you aren't putting a pressure gauge on your FDC on the floor you're hooking up on, you're WRONG. May you get away with it for a while? Probably. Will it eventually come back to bite you? Probably. Don't get me wrong; my department does all of the above. But guess what? WE ARE WRONG.

    You have to overcome head pressures, crap in the system (which we don't maintain) and all of the other factors that work against you in a high rise scenario. Eventually enough guys will die in these fires that we as a service will stop "just getting by."

    More times than not your arrival to the fire floor, and therefor your point of getting water on the fire, will be delayed. This allows for increased fire growth and spread. If you took the same fire load and put it on the ground, most of us would come off the truck pulling the big line or dumping the deck gun. So why would you want to limit yourself in the same situation X number of floors up? Before you jump to reason number one, "the 2 1/2" line being to cumbersome and heavy to move", I say save it. Train with it. Hit the gym. Call for the extra manpower when needed. There is no reason what so ever that a working high rise (or low rise for that matter) fire should recieve the same response as a working ground level fire. You know for a fact that it will be a manpower intensive situation. Get the extra help coming early.

    I like this article from January's Fire Engineering. Spot on.
    http://www.fireengineering.com/1/vol...aining-p2.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipeman1822 View Post
    Just curious as to what your reasoning is for this. We have 100' of 1 1/2" hose line for our racks and this is in a city with more high rises than most.
    Better question: what is DC's reasoning for using 1 1/2"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    It's quite simple actually. Standpipe systems are designed and built to be used with 2 1/2" hose and smooth bore nozzles. Anyone who advocates anything other than what the system is meant for is WRONG. Meaning, if you use 1 3/4" hose, you're WRONG. If you use fog nozzles, you're WRONG. If you aren't putting a pressure gauge on your FDC on the floor you're hooking up on, you're WRONG. May you get away with it for a while? Probably. Will it eventually come back to bite you? Probably. Don't get me wrong; my department does all of the above. But guess what? WE ARE WRONG.

    You have to overcome head pressures, crap in the system (which we don't maintain) and all of the other factors that work against you in a high rise scenario. Eventually enough guys will die in these fires that we as a service will stop "just getting by."

    More times than not your arrival to the fire floor, and therefor your point of getting water on the fire, will be delayed. This allows for increased fire growth and spread. If you took the same fire load and put it on the ground, most of us would come off the truck pulling the big line or dumping the deck gun. So why would you want to limit yourself in the same situation X number of floors up? Before you jump to reason number one, "the 2 1/2" line being to cumbersome and heavy to move", I say save it. Train with it. Hit the gym. Call for the extra manpower when needed. There is no reason what so ever that a working high rise (or low rise for that matter) fire should recieve the same response as a working ground level fire. You know for a fact that it will be a manpower intensive situation. Get the extra help coming early.

    I like this article from January's Fire Engineering. Spot on.
    http://www.fireengineering.com/1/vol...aining-p2.html
    So if anyone does anything other than your way they are "WRONG" because your way is the only way? Got it. Makes sense.

    Why are you assuming that if it's the same fire on the ground we would be hitting it with the deck gun? That makes no sense. Just because it's in a high rise, doesn't mean its big. Most of our high rise fires are room and contents and an 1 1/2" hose line handles it just fine. We are on scene quickly and have plenty of personnel since in downtown DC there's fire houses everywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    When fighting a highrise fire, you are already have a situation where you have to overcome head (height) with added pressure. Using smaller diameter hose means you have higher friction loss, adding to the already high pressure that you have to pump at for proper nozzle pressure.

    Just using basic fire flow calculations show that there is absolutely NO WAY you should use 1 1/2' hose for high rise ops. If it's in a hose cabinet for first responders or occupants that's different. Most places I know of only use 1 1/2" for car and dumpster fires.
    I posted some of my response above already but we use 1 1/2" for out primary attack line. Don't knock it if you haven't used it. You can put out a lot of fire with that hose line and it's much quicker to deploy/easier to use than 1 3/4" or 2". In Washington, DC we are on scene very quickly due to it being an urban city(more people around causing it to be called in faster) and we have good staffing. Most of our fires aren't more than a room or two off.

    Here's an example of what two 1 1/2" hose lines can do. View that after pics and see how much of that house was still saved due to the quick attack.

    Last edited by pipeman1822; 08-19-2012 at 09:45 AM.

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    Yeah but thats PG county -they could have handled that with a PW can, but they didnt want to show off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipeman1822 View Post
    So if anyone does anything other than your way they are "WRONG" because your way is the only way? Got it. Makes sense.

    Why are you assuming that if it's the same fire on the ground we would be hitting it with the deck gun? That makes no sense. Just because it's in a high rise, doesn't mean its big. Most of our high rise fires are room and contents and an 1 1/2" hose line handles it just fine. We are on scene quickly and have plenty of personnel since in downtown DC there's fire houses everywhere.
    Hey bud, it isn't "my way". It is the national standard. Try reading NFPA 14 sometime. You would be surprised at what you might learn. I am by no way an advocate of beating everything in the fire service to death with the applicable NFPA standard, but this is one area where literally everything in the document is there for a reason and no fire department in the country has a reason for deviating from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by pipeman1822 View Post
    I posted some of my response above already but we use 1 1/2" for out primary attack line. Don't knock it if you haven't used it. You can put out a lot of fire with that hose line and it's much quicker to deploy/easier to use than 1 3/4" or 2". In Washington, DC we are on scene very quickly due to it being an urban city(more people around causing it to be called in faster) and we have good staffing. Most of our fires aren't more than a room or two off.

    Here's an example of what two 1 1/2" hose lines can do. View that after pics and see how much of that house was still saved due to the quick attack.

    The conversation you are defending right now is the same one the 20 year guys were having about switching to 1 3/4" hose...20 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Accountants should stick to adding numbers, and paying bills. They should let you know how much you have in your budget, not what to spend it on. Any accountant that tells you that you should buy a certain product because it's cheaper than what you've spec'd after you and your committee have done all the research should be B!#ch slapped.
    Having said that, unless something is significantly cheaper AND better, Buy American. I know of some hose that has to go out and back in through customs for repair. That's probably gonna wipe out any price advantage.
    being as the accountants are the ones that ARE paying the bills....they need justification on buying something at a higher price. Just saying it's American made doesn't justify that added expense. Not sure why you went into the speccing diatribe as I said in my question...when comparing less expensive better stuff.

    Never had a hose repaired, we just replace it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    When the imports run the American companies out of business,the imports will mysteriously go up in price.
    Then those American companies better 1) change their business model and/or 2) work on their pricing.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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