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    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/07...ent-shortfall/



    I see...pro's and con's...as is the case in any situation (involving almost anything). I find it interesting and somewhat reassuring that these ideas are being kicked around...whether it's a good idea...well...like I said, pro's and con's

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    Two words.. HELL NO!
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    Nope.....would I like to travel to Detroit and watch how DFD does things as a learning experience? Yes. Would I go this route to help Detroit get by on the cheap and screw over the brothers they have laid off? No effin way.
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    Even if this mumbo jumbo did pass, I can't imagine the "firefighting mercenary" who comes on shift that morning having a very warm welcome.
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    What about transitioning some of Detroit's stations to combo "Live in" stations...same concept, more permanent...first truck is staffed by career guys, second truck at those stations is staffed by live ins similar to a PG county type deal...

    Not to get into all the things that went wrong with Detroit's city management and everything else, but what are some legitimate options for Detroit Fire Department in the short run and the long run that does not include "Increase the budget" or "rehire guys". What are some legitimate reasonable options to make it a safer place to work and a better department with better services for the city..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    Not to get into all the things that went wrong with Detroit's city management and everything else, but what are some legitimate options for Detroit Fire Department in the short run and the long run that does not include "Increase the budget" or "rehire guys".
    Obtain federal funds that are earmarked for public safety only, and bring back guys from layoff.

    NOT AN OPTION: Vollies, live-in's or "pay to play" personnel.
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    Not only NO but HELL NO. Talk about a cluster. I know people are trying to think outside the box, but if this the best they can come up with someone needs a education in the fire service.

    It would have more entertainment value on TV than anything else. Think when Firefighter DD gets there from somewhere SD and thinks he know more then his 'tour guides' and begins to tell them how he does it in SD or when some saftey sally gets there and starts in on this is unsafe and that is unsafe and I don't do that because the risk is to much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Obtain federal funds that are earmarked for public safety only, and bring back guys from layoff.

    NOT AN OPTION: Vollies, live-in's or "pay to play" personnel.

    All great in theory but not going to happen soon. And when it does happen I really doubt it will be the best option.

    What is the major opposition to transitioning to a combo department with the first truck out manned by paid guys. There are several decent sized cities that I know of that use this function with more paid guys at busier stations, and one or two paid guys at less busy stations with a vollie roster of 20-25 active for that station. It allows for good manpower, fast responses, and vollies and career alike are held the exactly the same training and continuing education standards. I don't know of a city the size of Detroit that has attempted anything of the kind but if someone wants to list some cons of doing this as opposed to leaving it the way it is now (or any other feasible ideas) about a solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    All great in theory but not going to happen soon. And when it does happen I really doubt it will be the best option.

    What is the major opposition to transitioning to a combo department with the first truck out manned by paid guys. There are several decent sized cities that I know of that use this function with more paid guys at busier stations, and one or two paid guys at less busy stations with a vollie roster of 20-25 active for that station. It allows for good manpower, fast responses, and vollies and career alike are held the exactly the same training and continuing education standards. I don't know of a city the size of Detroit that has attempted anything of the kind but if someone wants to list some cons of doing this as opposed to leaving it the way it is now (or any other feasible ideas) about a solution.
    I dont know, lets ask the guys who have been laid off what they think......Go ahead, you first.
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    If guys want to go up there to ride any pay into the station's meals/house fund for the tour, I have zero issue with that. Where I do have an issue is when the DFD administration proposes using the ride-alongs as part of the minimum staffing for the day. Ridiculous and unacceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I dont know, lets ask the guys who have been laid off what they think......Go ahead, you first.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    There are several decent sized cities that I know of that use this function with more paid guys at busier stations, and one or two paid guys at less busy stations with a vollie roster of 20-25 active for that station.
    Can you provide examples?

    I don't know of a city the size of Detroit that has attempted anything of the kind but if someone wants to list some cons of doing this as opposed to leaving it the way it is now (or any other feasible ideas) about a solution.
    A handful of cons:
    1. Finding a volunteer pool large enough to keep a program like this viable for any length of time.
    2. Ensuring that there's enough economic opportunities for the volunteers to have jobs. It's no secret that Michigan is having a lot of economic issues, both within the government and private industries.
    3. Providing a reason for the volunteers to be there. Although DFD does have quite a few newer rigs, they also have a lot of rigs that are in a questionable state of repair, and are beat all to hell. Then you're going to have them staffing firehouses that have sewage in the basement or no running water? Rigs that may or may note make it there, deplorable firehouses, morale in the toilet - the fire load isn't enough to keep a volunteer compliment coming back day after day.
    4. Speaking of the fire load, do we expect the volunteers go to multiple working fires overnight, and then be prepared to go to their "real" jobs the next day. And do this multiple times a week?
    5. There would likely be a lack of continuity and shift integrity with members coming and going. These things can have an impact on fireground operations and safety.

    Aside from stabbing the guys who were laid off in the back, there are MANY reasons that a "pay to spray" and/or combination system would not provide the citizens of Detroit the protection that they deserve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    If guys want to go up there to ride any pay into the station's meals/house fund for the tour, I have zero issue with that. Where I do have an issue is when the DFD administration proposes using the ride-alongs as part of the minimum staffing for the day. Ridiculous and unacceptable.


    Exactly.


    Can you provide examples?



    A handful of cons:
    1. Finding a volunteer pool large enough to keep a program like this viable for any length of time.
    2. Ensuring that there's enough economic opportunities for the volunteers to have jobs. It's no secret that Michigan is having a lot of economic issues, both within the government and private industries.
    3. Providing a reason for the volunteers to be there. Although DFD does have quite a few newer rigs, they also have a lot of rigs that are in a questionable state of repair, and are beat all to hell. Then you're going to have them staffing firehouses that have sewage in the basement or no running water? Rigs that may or may note make it there, deplorable firehouses, morale in the toilet - the fire load isn't enough to keep a volunteer compliment coming back day after day.
    4. Speaking of the fire load, do we expect the volunteers go to multiple working fires overnight, and then be prepared to go to their "real" jobs the next day. And do this multiple times a week?
    5. There would likely be a lack of continuity and shift integrity with members coming and going. These things can have an impact on fireground operations and safety.

    Aside from stabbing the guys who were laid off in the back, there are MANY reasons that a "pay to spray" and/or combination system would not provide the citizens of Detroit the protection that they deserve.
    The stabbing the guys who were laid off in the back thing...well...It sucks, it really does, its like when your job gets outsourced...they didn't outsource it for no reason...well when they laid guys off...they didn't do it for no reason. There is a lack of money in Detroit, a lack of economic opportunity right now and everyone knows that. Rehiring the guys isn't feasible with their budget and taking a government grant to rehire has been discussed on here before and it's just a temporary fix..when the grant length runs out...then your back to firing guys and the whole process repeats itself. rehiring and firing every few years is nothing but an ineffecient waste of money.

    I know The Columbia-Richland Fire Department runs a county wide fire department with some stations manned only by paid staff and some stations manned by a paid driver with a fairly excellent volunteer staff.

    Excerpt from the site http://www.columbiasc.net/fire/152


    "The Columbia-Richland FD currently has 515 active firefighters—392 of them are paid/career firefighters while 123 are volunteer firefighters—located in 32 stations. Of these 32 stations, 14 are considered “volunteer stations” as they are staffed predominantly by volunteer firefighters. "

    Now I understand running a combo department or live in stations in a city only setting is different from running a county wide fire department that has rural areas that are more easily covered by volunteers due to call load. That said, I think there would be plenty of volunteers who are IFSAC FFII certified with tons of other useful classes that would jump on the opportunity to live in at a Detroit station for a 3-6 month commitment requiring them to be there a reasonable amount of time that would bring some of the badly understaffed stations up to a 4 man engine or two trucks during the peak hours of call volume. Im not saying convert the whole department but I think it would be reasonable to have several stations primarily staffed by volunteers that allow some of the paid guys to fully staff other stations and trucks. increasing safety on working fires and other high risk incidents...


    Also as far as providing the citizens of Detroit with the service they deserve....I think most would agree with me that we are way past that...I'm just trying to kick around some ideas that could be used to Better the department in a way that will work in the short term and long term...It's not going to be a fast or instant fix...
    Last edited by Rialaigh; 09-08-2012 at 03:01 PM.

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    Rialaigh,

    Volunteers, HA HA HA HA. What the department would get is ex-cons, rip off artists, drug addicts, hookers and the rest of the low lifes that seem to be a large portion of the population in the City of Detroit now. The other problem is that another large portion of residents are seniors who can't afford to even leave. The city doesn't even require individuls to put down their criminal or civil convictions on their application. As far as live in stations that's a hot one too. Most of the firehouses are in deplorable condition and almost every Detroit firefighter isn't happy with living in the conditions that presently exsist, even though they try at their own expense to keep things up to par. Most residents don't even own a car (the ones that do have autos that are in poor repair and unreliable at best). Most usually take the bus system, which is a nightmare all by itself. This idea was brought up more than a few years ago and it went under real quick.

    As far as someone coming here from out of state, their certifications wouldn't be reconized in Michigan because the state has no reciprocity with any other state I know of. All ride alongs that have been done over the years only allowed the vast majority to do minor fire ground operations (except the few that were well known by the crews themselves). Very few have ever been allowed the full blown experience and I know the officers and senior men wouldn't want the resposibility for these individuals. They have enough to worry about taking care of their own crew members.

    A better idea would be for the Mayor, Deputy Mayor, Commissioner, Deputy Commissioners, City Clowncil members and all the do nothing administrators to get off their duffs and give up their nights and weekends riding the back end .

    Like that's ever going to even be considered. They don't have the cojones or intelligence to even try it.

    I would happily be willing to take you on a tour of what is in all reality a 3rd world environment. Believe me, you would leave muttering a lot of obscenities.
    Last edited by FireCapt1951retired; 09-08-2012 at 04:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    What about transitioning some of Detroit's stations to combo "Live in" stations...same concept, more permanent...first truck is staffed by career guys, second truck at those stations is staffed by live ins similar to a PG county type deal...

    Not to get into all the things that went wrong with Detroit's city management and everything else, but what are some legitimate options for Detroit Fire Department in the short run and the long run that does not include "Increase the budget" or "rehire guys". What are some legitimate reasonable options to make it a safer place to work and a better department with better services for the city..
    Have you actually ever been to Detroit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    All great in theory but not going to happen soon. And when it does happen I really doubt it will be the best option.

    What is the major opposition to transitioning to a combo department with the first truck out manned by paid guys. There are several decent sized cities that I know of that use this function with more paid guys at busier stations, and one or two paid guys at less busy stations with a vollie roster of 20-25 active for that station. It allows for good manpower, fast responses, and vollies and career alike are held the exactly the same training and continuing education standards. I don't know of a city the size of Detroit that has attempted anything of the kind but if someone wants to list some cons of doing this as opposed to leaving it the way it is now (or any other feasible ideas) about a solution.
    With only 35-37 total companies in service each shift (Engines, trucks and heavy Rescue) covering 139 sq miles, there are no slow stations left in Detroit. As of now, you get no sleep (outside of a quick cat nap while responding on a 7-10 mile 1st alarm run) during your tour.

    As far as your decent sized cities, this is Detroit and those cities don't have the totally self serving, thieving, ignorant politicians (my factual opinion) like Detroit has (believe me, I dealt with these people for over 33 years and it's one of kind). The last Mayor and other insiders are now on trial in federal court, charged with running a criminal enterprise along with many who have taken a guilty plea already.
    Last edited by FireCapt1951retired; 09-08-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    Now I understand running a combo department or live in stations in a city only setting is different from running a county wide fire department that has rural areas that are more easily covered by volunteers due to call load. That said, I think there would be plenty of volunteers who are IFSAC FFII certified with tons of other useful classes that would jump on the opportunity to live in at a Detroit station for a 3-6 month commitment requiring them to be there a reasonable amount of time that would bring some of the badly understaffed stations up to a 4 man engine or two trucks during the peak hours of call volume. Im not saying convert the whole department but I think it would be reasonable to have several stations primarily staffed by volunteers that allow some of the paid guys to fully staff other stations and trucks. increasing safety on working fires and other high risk incidents....
    And where will these volunteers get the experience they need to operate in a heavy urban environment? What do they do when they are dispatched to a multiple-alarm or a move-up to another station that has in their local (among other things):
    -High rises (and I dont mean the 6th floor, I mean the 36th floor.....)
    -Tenements
    -Heavy Industrial operations such as petrochemical refineries and manufacturing facilities
    -Fuel Depots
    -Major waterfront shipping operations: Shipboard firefighting
    -Major international airports

    This is just to touch on the subject. A firefighter in Philadelphia assigned to Engine 58 in the Bustleton section of the far northeast, who fights primarily single-family-dwellings and taxpayers could easily be detailed to Engine 60 in West Philly, and have the requisite training and experience to be able to operate as a member of the company at any of the number of heavy industrial operations out there, or as a member of the Haz Mat Team (E60/L19/HM1/CH1.)

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    Observing the mindset of the typical Detroit politician, they will lay off the bulk of the firefighters and only have a paid driver/MPO only to chauffeur the "tourists" to fight Detroit's fires.
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    This is humorous, only because me and my co-tailboarder have been saying this for years... "Detroit should make money by selling firefighter vacations to other firefighters." It was just a joke, but dang.

    Could you imagine some small town wacker getting a day of what those guys go through? Humbleing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Observing the mindset of the typical Detroit politician, they will lay off the bulk of the firefighters and only have a paid driver/MPO only to chauffeur the "tourists" to fight Detroit's fires.
    They could actually put a taxi meter in the rig .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    The stabbing the guys who were laid off in the back thing...well...It sucks, it really does, its like when your job gets outsourced...they didn't outsource it for no reason...well when they laid guys off...they didn't do it for no reason. There is a lack of money in Detroit, a lack of economic opportunity right now and everyone knows that. Rehiring the guys isn't feasible with their budget and taking a government grant to rehire has been discussed on here before and it's just a temporary fix..when the grant length runs out...then your back to firing guys and the whole process repeats itself. rehiring and firing every few years is nothing but an ineffecient waste of money.

    I know The Columbia-Richland Fire Department runs a county wide fire department with some stations manned only by paid staff and some stations manned by a paid driver with a fairly excellent volunteer staff.

    Excerpt from the site http://www.columbiasc.net/fire/152


    "The Columbia-Richland FD currently has 515 active firefighters—392 of them are paid/career firefighters while 123 are volunteer firefighters—located in 32 stations. Of these 32 stations, 14 are considered “volunteer stations” as they are staffed predominantly by volunteer firefighters. "

    Now I understand running a combo department or live in stations in a city only setting is different from running a county wide fire department that has rural areas that are more easily covered by volunteers due to call load. That said, I think there would be plenty of volunteers who are IFSAC FFII certified with tons of other useful classes that would jump on the opportunity to live in at a Detroit station for a 3-6 month commitment requiring them to be there a reasonable amount of time that would bring some of the badly understaffed stations up to a 4 man engine or two trucks during the peak hours of call volume. Im not saying convert the whole department but I think it would be reasonable to have several stations primarily staffed by volunteers that allow some of the paid guys to fully staff other stations and trucks. increasing safety on working fires and other high risk incidents...


    Also as far as providing the citizens of Detroit with the service they deserve....I think most would agree with me that we are way past that...I'm just trying to kick around some ideas that could be used to Better the department in a way that will work in the short term and long term...It's not going to be a fast or instant fix...
    For the love of God, Allah, Buddah, Jahweh, Jehova, Vishnu, Ganesh, Odin, Zeus, Kaless, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any other deity one chooses to worship or not... it is not your place to solve Detroit's problems nor anyone else's.
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    It chaps me to hear people say "thats the way it is now " AKA "new normal" - Why should the dedicated fireman of Detroit (or any other struggling city) have to accept some half baked idea to "staff" their engines when their is enough fat and waste to be cut so the emergency services can be funded and staffed to do their jobs. The America I grew up in , cities planned for their fire departments to grow and improve , not downsize. I think volly that buys into this idea, is part of the problem
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    Frankly, any firefighter that would participate in this deserves no respect, no common courtesy, and should be shunned for being so completely out of touch with what Brotherhood means.

    There are so many flaws with this idea as to be unbelievable.
    1) Liability. Who will cover medical costs, worker's compensation, and heaven forbid LODD benefits if someone dies?
    2) Operationally, how will someone not familiar with Detroit's SOG's and fireground ops fit in seamlessly and not be more of a hindrance than a help?
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    Ok someone brought the FSM into this. Things are getting serious.
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    I would go to Detroit.
    I would go and walk picket lines with them.

    It's funny how it has to get this bad in that city before the normally biased local news media runs a story leaning in favor of the brothers views. How bad will other cities let their public safety suffer before the media notices that something is wrong with the local government instead of laying the blame on the backs of the ones who do all the work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I would go to Detroit.
    I would go and walk picket lines with them.

    It's funny how it has to get this bad in that city before the normally biased local news media runs a story leaning in favor of the brothers views. How bad will other cities let their public safety suffer before the media notices that something is wrong with the local government instead of laying the blame on the backs of the ones who do all the work.
    Not to defend the news media, but the Fox affilliate in Detroit and Charlie Leduff have been one the fire department's side for a while now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Not to defend the news media, but the Fox affilliate in Detroit and Charlie Leduff have been one the fire department's side for a while now.
    And that is quite refreshing: the local outlets here (Jacksonville, FL) sure don't miss a chance to jab JFRD...

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