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Thread: Fire flow sogs

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    Default Fire flow sogs

    Tasked with writing an SOG on flow standard for my department. I was hoping someone would know where I could see an example of one??? Any help would be great. Thanks

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    My career FD has set the minimum flow for our 1 3/4 inch preconnects at 150 gpm at 50 psi, 2 1/2 inch lines are either 265 gpm with a 1 1/8 tip at 50 psi, or 250 gpm with a fog tip at 75 psi.

    My #1 POC FD runs exclusively 2 inch handlines and we use a 200 gpm at 75 psi break apart nozzle with a 1 1/4 inch slug tip. We under pump the combination nozzle for a flow of 160 gpm at around 55 psi, then we can go to 200 gpm at 75 psi.or go to the slug tip for 300 gpm at about 42 psi.

    Frankly, with today's fire loads I believe 150 gpm should be the bare minimum for flow for an interior line.

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    It was not what I was looking for, but still helpful information in that it is ammo to show that other departments have set standards that are higher than 100 gpm or less. What I am actually looking for is an SOG to help guide myself and another brother in writing ours because we have never written one before and I want it to be easy to understand yet comprehensive to try and cover everything or most things you know?? I have other SOGs on different topics to use as a guide, but I was hoping to actually see a department with one on flows. We could probably get by with having our top brass coming out and saying this is what you will pump at and this is the minimum flow from now on, but they want everything in writing I guess. Anyways, thanks for the response and any ideas on wording or where I can get more info would be greatly appreciated.

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    We do not have an entire SOP/SOG for nothing but fire flows. Our minimum flows for particular incidents are stated in the SOP/SOG for that incident. For example, in our residential structure fire policy, it states the minimum size attack line will be 1 3/4" flowing 175 GPM. Car fires state 1 3/4" lines with 95 GPM.

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    Our flows are within other tactical SOG's not a separate specific document that details flows? For example our residential fire SOG requires the initial 1.75" handline to flow a minimum 150 gpm flow. In practice the flow established is actually 180 gpm, but 150 minimum is in the "book".

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    Quote Originally Posted by irons33fd View Post
    Tasked with writing an SOG on flow standard for my department. I was hoping someone would know where I could see an example of one??? Any help would be great. Thanks
    Our dept. does not have SOG's as such, but there are basic designations for our preconnects and hoses. Years ago our truck had 1" booster lines, but they quit ordering trucks with those in the mid 80's because guys would get lazy and take them into a house fire.
    We now operate with standard hose loads on each engine. Two preconnected 1 3/4" inch lines, one 200' long with a combo nozzle (generally the initial line on a standard house or garage fire) a second 250' line with a straight tip as a back up line. We also have a 200' 2" line for larger houses or smaller commercial buldings. And on the bumper a 100' preconnected 1 1/2" strictly for cars, light trucks, dumpsters, and exposures. (NO interior firefighting) In addition we also have 500' of 2 1/2", and 3" hose that we can pull off and use as needed with the appropriate nozzle. And we also carry a 150' pack of 2 1/2" for high rise fires.
    The line used is left to the descretion of the officer in charge (initially, later the I/C may specify what line he wants where on a larger fire), but each line has it's general use.
    There's no specified flow, but a general operating range and flow is provided for each line in a flow and pressure chart. The nozzles are matched to the hose for the proper flow. The pump operator will start with the minimum pressure and raise it as the building, fire conditions, or the hose crew dictates.
    It's a pretty fluid situation (no pun intended), and the pump operator will use his best judgement and the info from the interior crew to get the right flow for the situation. That's just how it operates here.
    Last edited by johnsb; 09-11-2012 at 12:03 AM.

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    Just an FYI, I have it from a reliable source that with the next revision of NFPA 1710, fire flows will increase from 300gpm from 2 lines, to 350-400gpm from the first 2 lines. The details have yet to be worked out, but be prepared.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Just an FYI, I have it from a reliable source that with the next revision of NFPA 1710, fire flows will increase from 300gpm from 2 lines, to 350-400gpm from the first 2 lines. The details have yet to be worked out, but be prepared.
    I have heard the same, and it also came from a reliable source. That was a big factor when we started specing the flows and pressures for our new nozzles.
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    I doubt it'll pass in the end. Far too much is invested in 100 psi fog nozzles, 1.75" and even 1.5" in metro FD's. Trying to drive FD's to buy more hose or nozzles won't make it happen. Few places comply with the staffing requirements of 1710, so even if it passes, it's not much of a driving force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Just an FYI, I have it from a reliable source that with the next revision of NFPA 1710, fire flows will increase from 300gpm from 2 lines, to 350-400gpm from the first 2 lines. The details have yet to be worked out, but be prepared.
    It won't be an issue with my #1 POC FD, we will just just drop our initial flow of 160 and just go to the 200 gpm at 75 psi. That is the bonus of 2 inch hose, 200 gpm does not require a high pump pressure, and we can go to 300 gpm with our 1 1/4 inch slug tip.

    Honestly, I don't understand anyone flowing less than 150 gpm for interior attack lines and I honestly believe that isn't enough sometimes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I doubt it'll pass in the end. Far too much is invested in 100 psi fog nozzles, 1.75" and even 1.5" in metro FD's. Trying to drive FD's to buy more hose or nozzles won't make it happen. Few places comply with the staffing requirements of 1710, so even if it passes, it's not much of a driving force.
    I can find no reason to buy 100 PSI nozzles regardless of flow. It makes zero sense to require a higher operating pressure just because you don't take time to actually sit down and think about what you're buying.

    Higher flows are doable with 1 3/4" and the right nozzles. It isn't something that would take a lot of extra equipment to achieve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Just an FYI, I have it from a reliable source that with the next revision of NFPA 1710, fire flows will increase from 300gpm from 2 lines, to 350-400gpm from the first 2 lines. The details have yet to be worked out, but be prepared.
    Nozzle and/or hose sales must be down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I can find no reason to buy 100 PSI nozzles regardless of flow...
    I agree. And I also understand many departments out there are not buying new nozzles but still using the ones they have....and will be for many years to come.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Nozzle and/or hose sales must be down.
    Fire loads are up. You still have guys going through the door flowing less than 100 GPM. This is an issue.
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    I certainly don't disagree that 100 psi nozzles aren't the answer anymore, but for many years that's what we all bought as that was the standard. I'm betting that the number of 100 psi Fogs on lines far exceeds all other types, I doubt 1710 will pass on a "mandate" to change or pump them at unmanageable levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Fire loads are up. You still have guys going through the door flowing less than 100 GPM. This is an issue.
    That is exactly what is happening where I work. We have done the flow tests and put out documents, pump charts and the like and still getting a lot of resistance. I expected this, but it can be frustrating. Now we have turned to putting in SOG together to have it in writing as well as trying to get class together on different hose handling techniques. One of the biggest complaints is that you cant handle the line a 75 or 100 psi nozzle pumped flowing 150-200 gpm. Ignorance is bliss when it comes to hose handling. I was there myself, only just a year ago, I too was a pistol pitter. Anyways, thanks everyone for the responses

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    Quote Originally Posted by irons33fd View Post
    That is exactly what is happening where I work. We have done the flow tests and put out documents, pump charts and the like and still getting a lot of resistance. I expected this, but it can be frustrating. Now we have turned to putting in SOG together to have it in writing as well as trying to get class together on different hose handling techniques. One of the biggest complaints is that you cant handle the line a 75 or 100 psi nozzle pumped flowing 150-200 gpm. Ignorance is bliss when it comes to hose handling. I was there myself, only just a year ago, I too was a pistol pitter. Anyways, thanks everyone for the responses

    As for pistol grips I like them for some circumstances, and slide my hands off them to the hose line in other circumstances. The pistol grip is neither good nor evil, it is technique and training.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 09-12-2012 at 10:45 PM. Reason: redundant comments
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    I'm a fan of pistol grips, they work great for hanging the line up on a rafter so you don't bury the hoseline when you're pulling ceilings down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I agree. And I also understand many departments out there are not buying new nozzles but still using the ones they have....and will be for many years to come.
    With the price of nozzles, a lot of depts. can't afford new ones. I just rebuilt 3 Akron 1720's for my POC for around $50 apiece. Luckily we've bought newer low pressure nozzles, so these are backups and spares. They'll still work good on the average fire, you just have to understand fire progression and reading smoke and not overcommit with the older stuff. They're still great nozzles for trash lines, exposures, and car fires.

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    We just bought new hose and rebuilt/replaced our nozzles. We had old TFT handline nozzles which we rebuilt with the Dual Force Tips on both the 1 3/4 and 2 1/2 lines. Very cost effective move to update the nozzles. We also have 100' trash lines on 2 of our engines and a 3rd 1 3/4 line on our third engine that we went to the Midforce dual pressure nozzles. We also just replace all of our 1 3/4 handline with Mercedes KrakenExo. It has a very low friction loss (6.9 psi @ 100 gmp per 100') and a high kink resistance. We start the the flow @ 100 psi pump and adjust from there. With this set up, we are flowing between 180-200 gpm and these lines are able to be handled by 1 person fairly easily. The new standard shouldn't be hard to meet, and as others have stated, with the increase in fire loads, departments should want to increase their ability to flow water, if nothing else, then to better protect their own people.

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    BVFD279ENG...

    How do you know you are flowing between 180-200gpm? Did you you pitot the lines with a smoothbore? Did you use a flow meter? Or did you just use calculations? Because if you didn't pitot or use a calibtated flow meter there is no positive way of knowing your flows.
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