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Thread: How to get a new fire truck without new emissions equipment - DPF SCR

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    Default How to get a new fire truck without new emissions equipment - DPF SCR

    Ok guys,
    I've been racking my brain on this for a while and this is what I've learned.

    If you have an old fire truck that has all the power you want, and is reliable but worn out, yet it doesn't have a DPF or SCR, you can reuse the powertrain in a new Fire Truck chassis, and retain the original make, model and VIN number of the truck you're disposing of. The key is, you have to call it a "refurbishment,", but the only parts being reused are the powertrain components, or other parts that you dictate to the manufacturer.

    This is allowed under Federal Law, 49 CFR 571.7(e). This Federal Law allows a vehicle to retain its original VIN and year of manufacture, if the engine, transmission, and drive axle of the assembled vehicle are not new, and at least two of these components were taken from the same vehicle. It's designed to address glider kits used by trucking companies.

    Now, to the NFPA stuff. The NFPA standard on refurbishment is 1912. It offers two levels of refurbishment. Level I takes an old truck and brings everything into compliance with present NFPA standards, and present EPA emissions.

    A Level II refurbishment takes an old truck and brings it into compliance with standards that were in effect when the truck was originally manufactured. But, all you have to do require the manufacturer to make every vehicle component compliant with present NFPA 1901 standards, except the emissions. And give the manufacturer a specific list of components they are allowed to reuse, and don't allow them to deviate from it.

    New cab, front axle and steering, new cooling system, electrical system, new pump or old, new body, new booster tank, add a pto generator, etc. etc.

    We've got a lot of Detroit 60's in our inventory, and a few trucks are ready to put out to pasture, but the engines are still going strong. The B50 life (the point which 50% of the engines are still running and 50% require a rebuild) of a Detroit 60 engine is 1.2 million miles, so its safe to say that weve only scratched the surface of their useful life.

    To put that into perspective, if you drove a truck at 50 MPH for 8 hours a day, it would take 8 years and 2 months to reach 1.2 million miles.

    Want a larger axle than the old truck has? Sure, upgrade to a larger one, it just has to come from a used truck. Want another engine? Fine, just make sure you keep the original transmission and drive axle.

    I'm pushing to do this in our Dept, but it's like pulling teeth.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    That's similar to a common trucking industry practice known as glider kitting. With the exception of the drive train, you wind up with a new truck. And, you can save some pretty serious money in the process. Doing a rebuild of the pump at the same time and reusing it can save even more. But assembling glider kits is not for everyone; you need a shop with lots of experience at it doing the work. You're very fortunate. Being in the Triad yu're near some truly first rate shops who do that on a pretty regular basis. Or, I know E-1 and Pierce have both done them in the past. I don't know about any of the others but it's worth the price of a phone call to find out.

    One pitfall you already mentioned - even though you have a nice new truck, on paper it's still 20 or however many years old.

    Another one, and for many people it's a biggie - you become your own warranty administrator. We're all familiar with how some builders are quick to point the finger at someone else. Here, they have an even stronger case for it. There are consulting firms that do warranty administration for a living, but that comes at a price and most of them are geared to fleets rather than onesey twosey operations.

    But if you can deal with those pitfalls, in my opinion it's worth a look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    Ok guys,

    We've got a lot of Detroit 60's in our inventory, and a few trucks are ready to put out to pasture, but the engines are still going strong. The B50 life (the point which 50% of the engines are still running and 50% require a rebuild) of a Detroit 60 engine is 1.2 million miles, so it’s safe to say that we’ve only scratched the surface of their useful life.

    To put that into perspective, if you drove a truck at 50 MPH for 8 hours a day, it would take 8 years and 2 months to reach 1.2 million miles.

    Want a larger axle than the old truck has? Sure, upgrade to a larger one, it just has to come from a used truck. Want another engine? Fine, just make sure you keep the original transmission and drive axle.
    While I understand your intent and agree in premise, I'd wonder about trying to compare Fire engine hours to road miles? I'm no mechanic, but my very basic understanding is that these large diesel engines are long lasting in the trucking industry which differs greatly from the "abuse" we subject them to. Most larger trucks tend to be driven at normal operating temps for more road miles, which is easier on the overall power/drivetrain that the frequent short trips on a "cold" engine that we typify. That's not to say the engine isn't still viable at the end of most apparatus's life, but is there a decent way to predict reliability in the engines second life? And what happens when you need to replace the engine in the new chassis/body? Would you find only another used engine would work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While I understand your intent and agree in premise, I'd wonder about trying to compare Fire engine hours to road miles? I'm no mechanic, but my very basic understanding is that these large diesel engines are long lasting in the trucking industry which differs greatly from the "abuse" we subject them to. Most larger trucks tend to be driven at normal operating temps for more road miles, which is easier on the overall power/drivetrain that the frequent short trips on a "cold" engine that we typify. That's not to say the engine isn't still viable at the end of most apparatus's life, but is there a decent way to predict reliability in the engines second life? And what happens when you need to replace the engine in the new chassis/body? Would you find only another used engine would work?
    Some points well worth some serious pondering there. I wonder if TC would care to favor us with an opinion.

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    Federal Fire Departments are now doing this regularly in the interest of cost-saving efforts. The United States Army Fire Department at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland has had their (two) 1991 Pierce 1000gpm/100' (US Army Fleet Spec) quints refurbished in this very manner. The drivetrains are 8V92DDEC engines coupled to Allison HT740 mechanical transmissions. Essentially they got two brand-new quints. I have enough inside knowledge though that I would have considered FULL engine rebuilds on one of them (if not both) and I certainly hope that both of them were "turned up" as they would not get out of their own way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    While I understand your intent and agree in premise, I'd wonder about trying to compare Fire engine hours to road miles? I'm no mechanic, but my very basic understanding is that these large diesel engines are long lasting in the trucking industry which differs greatly from the "abuse" we subject them to. Most larger trucks tend to be driven at normal operating temps for more road miles, which is easier on the overall power/drivetrain that the frequent short trips on a "cold" engine that we typify.
    Excellent points, but the raw engine hours is simple math. If we take a very conservative value and estimate that it traveled on average, relatively fast at 65 mph (to keep engine hours lower), it still equates to over 18,000 engine hours. And the B50 life is not the "END" of the engine, it's where you'd need a major overhaul. After a major overhaul, a HD diesel engine would basically be like brand new, assuming you don't have a bad set of injectors, bad turbo, or exhaust leak pre-turbo.
    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    And what happens when you need to replace the engine in the new chassis/body? Would you find only another used engine would work?
    If the OEM is still making new replacement engines, nothing stops the user from replacing the engine with an identical model.

    If the OEM is not making new replacements, then you're looking at a remanufactured unit. Really no different than replacing a blown engine in a newer truck 1 day past it's warranty.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    By the way, the EPA recently waived the requirements for emergency vehicles, however will the Engine Mfr's temporarily re-tool engine lines to produce such an extremely small amount of engines? Highly doubtful considering they have already stated that they would not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    By the way, the EPA recently waived the requirements for emergency vehicles, however will the Engine Mfr's temporarily re-tool engine lines to produce such an extremely small amount of engines? Highly doubtful considering they have already stated that they would not.
    Can you link to that so I read the fine print? I remember reading somewhere about emissions requirements for fire trucks being delayed 2 years behind regular vehicles of similar weight classes.
    The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened. --Norman Mattoon Thomas, 6 time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America

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    The EPA really didn't do the fire service any favors. Read the ruling carefully. Nowhere does it say that you can remove the DPF and SCR from the new engines.

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    Be damn careful how you "Dial up" 8-92's. Since they use essentially the same crank as the old 318 hp 8-71 and you are now crowding 450 plus out of it you COULD open up a huge can of worms. On the surface it looks like a great way to save $. Things I KNOW: The 60 is a good platform capable of a million plus ROAD miles IF strict PM schedules are followed. That always happens in FD's,RIGHT? 60's have a certain number of congenital defects front drive cam bushings being one. And YES,Pump/Idle hrs counton that miracle million mark. Since it's cheap seats to In-frame or Overhaul while you are setting into a new chassis why wouldn't you? But be sure to crunch the $ before you jump and make sure it's the best VALUE(not lowest cost)for your agency.
    SEMPERFI3 likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    Can you link to that so I read the fine print? I remember reading somewhere about emissions requirements for fire trucks being delayed 2 years behind regular vehicles of similar weight classes.
    They RELAXED the Ecm programming and opened up a couple parameters. they DID NOT do away with the Tier requirements

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    Exactly correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LT2410 View Post
    The EPA really didn't do the fire service any favors. Read the ruling carefully. Nowhere does it say that you can remove the DPF and SCR from the new engines.
    Exactly correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Be damn careful how you "Dial up" 8-92's. Since they use essentially the same crank as the old 318 hp 8-71 and you are now crowding 450 plus out of it you COULD open up a huge can of worms.
    Hey I'm not saying turn the thing up to 450 but give them SOMETHING!!! It's pretty embarassing when you get passed by Engine 814 out on Route 40 going to one of their runs.......Sometimes the guys in the back would offer to get out and push!

    And that was a perfect case of should have rebuilt the engines- I mentioned one of them (if not both) should have been fully overhauled. The one in our truck blew a head gasket and was never right since- I suspect the block surface was warped and needed to be machined; but the cheap *** and LAZY automotive maintenance contractor on the base (yes the motor pool was contracted out...BAD IDEA) didnt want to pull the engine and someone else didnt want to pay for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Be damn careful how you "Dial up" 8-92's. Since they use essentially the same crank as the old 318 hp 8-71 and you are now crowding 450 plus out of it you COULD open up a huge can of worms.
    PTIA (airport) Fire send an old Oshkosh back to Oshkosh to be refurbished. They did a detailed assessment of the engine and recommended a rebuild. They also offered up a set of marine heads for it, which I imagine had larger injectors. They guys at PTIA say it's a completely different truck now and drives like a sports car.

    They also got an Oshkosh with a CAT C18 (1,106 cubic inches). That truck will scat too.
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    My sister dept had a Tanker(tender) with a 8V92TT in it hauling 3500 H2O.Only about three guys drove it,we turned it up to 475,SCARY fast. Wouldn't reccomend that on a daily driver. You can got some unworldly power out of them with heads and injectors BUT the crank is the weak link. As I mentioned it changed little fron the 8-71 318 hp days

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    Try to find a new or rebuilt Pre- 2007 crate motor somewere, and you can do away with the EPA problems!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    Try to find a new or rebuilt Pre- 2007 crate motor somewere, and you can do away with the EPA problems!
    Correct, but good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbridge View Post
    Try to find a new or rebuilt Pre- 2007 crate motor somewere, and you can do away with the EPA problems!
    NOT unless that is what it came with. You can't take a 2010 and put a 2006 engine in it LEGALLY.Good luck finding a PRE 07 Crate,you aren't the first guy to think of this. Most of those engines got snapped up by OEM's when they saw the new Tier's coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    NOT unless that is what it came with. You can't take a 2010 and put a 2006 engine in it LEGALLY.
    But if you're refurbing, nothing stops you from putting a pre-07 emissions engine in a 1997 chassis. As long as you reuse the original transmission and drive axle(s). And if you need a larger model axle for more weight (after the refurb), then change it out before you refurb it.
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    We are having that done to one of our trucks right now , bigger rebuilt crate motor, new front & rear axles, and new trans, the complete drive train is being changed. The truck is being rebuilt from the frame rails up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    But if you're refurbing, nothing stops you from putting a pre-07 emissions engine in a 1997 chassis. As long as you reuse the original transmission and drive axle(s). And if you need a larger model axle for more weight (after the refurb), then change it out before you refurb it.
    That is Correct,just wanted to make that distinction in case somebody thought you can just shoehorn the engine of choice into your rig.

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