Like Tree40Likes

Thread: Training accident... 16 year old "junior firefighter" criticallly injured.

  1. #51
    Forum Member
    snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    The department called it TRAINING. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.
    Sure. No possibility of it being called TRAINING after the fact, right? I mean, that would be stupid to do and this department is not capable of stupidity.

    Does it really matter what they planned, or poorly planned to do? A 16 year old youth got BURNED because of incompetence, poor leadership, and blatant stupidity.
    I'm sure that when the lawyers get ahold of this, it will matter tremendously. This is most likely being investigated by OSHA, as it is an industrial accident at the least. There are going to be statements given, and each one of those statements will be investigated by a qualified investigator. Their training records will be subject to review and a fine will most likely be handed down.
    They openly copped to using gasoline, so that should attract the attention of OSHA and the like.

    I have a feeling that semantics are going to be a big part of the aftermath of this fiasco.
    IAFF

  2. #52
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    I highly doubt that the department was planning any "offensive training" on a burn pile.
    So because it wasn't, in your mind, "offensive training", it's ok to use children and gasoline for live burn training.
    As a previous poster has suggested this was more than likely simply going to be a case where the department was going to be on hand, probably using handlines to simply protect exposures, and writing it off as nozzle practice or fire streams as community service type of operation.
    You really are a cancer in the fire service.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  3. #53
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    37

    Default

    If it was a case of the fire department being asked to assist with the burning of a brush pile by the property owner (And to be frank, I've never actually seen this happen) even if the property owner lit the thing off the kid still shouldn't have been anywhere near it, much less close enough to it to get injured.

    That being said, I've never heard of a property owner around here asking for the fire department to assist with burning a brush pile. I think maybe the person who was responsible for this cluster f....er...incident knew someone who was going to burn a brush pile, and suddenly a light bulb went on in his skull (I'm not going to say 'brain'. He didn't have one). Gas obviously got into the mix through pure stupidity. Gasoline shouldn't have been anywhere within sight of the thing, much less used to light it off. The Jr should have been far far away from it.

    Though this was termed 'Training' my bet is this actually wasn't 'Training'. I have a feeling this was more like 'Hey y'all lets take the fire truck to old MacDonald's place when he burns that Ginormous Brush Pile and have some fun! It became 'Training' during the discussions immediately after the thing went 'WHOOOOMPH!'

    Around here when contractors clear land and burn a brush pile, they MAY use a bit of diesel fuel to help it along. But never gasoline. And the fire department doesn't use them for training.
    Last edited by fotowun; 09-25-2012 at 10:18 PM.

  4. #54
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,281

    Default

    fotowun,

    One of the POC FDs I am a member of does grass fire burns and brush pile burns regularly in the spring. Not as training, but as a service for our citizens.

    We do not use gas, but do use a drip torch for lighting the grass we are burning.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  5. #55
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    37

    Default

    I stand corrected then. And modify my comment to ...'In my area'. Thanks.

  6. #56
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,802

    Default

    gas filled 2 1/2 gallon can, that's funny.

  7. #57
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    1,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    fotowun,

    One of the POC FDs I am a member of does grass fire burns and brush pile burns regularly in the spring. Not as training, but as a service for our citizens.

    We do not use gas, but do use a drip torch for lighting the grass we are burning.
    If something was to go wrong and the fire gets out of control and does damage to another property, does the department assume responiblity or does it stay with the property owner?

  8. #58
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    If something was to go wrong and the fire gets out of control and does damage to another property, does the department assume responiblity or does it stay with the property owner?
    I can ony assume that we would be responsible for any damages.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  9. #59
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Post #45 ...

    As far as the incident itself the issue isn't the junior, IMO, lighting the pile. The issue is whoever supervised the operation and allowed the use of the gasoline v. diesel.

    Never did I say that it was acceptable to use gasoline.

    Never.

    I am fully aware of what NFPA states in terms of structural training regarding any flammable liquids in STRUCTURAL training, however, this wasn't a structure.

    It was a burnpile.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #60
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    You really are a cancer in the fire service.
    I may be.

    My current combo department allows junior firefighters to be involved in live fire training, under direct supervision, when utilizing our propane-fired props. We allow them to be actively involved in live fire training, under supervision, in our burn building. And we allow them to be involved, under supervision when we do live vehicle burns.

    And it's not a problem because they are trained and under supervision when involved in live fire training.

    And it's never been a problem.

    And yes, we use them in some situations in fire suppression, under supervision, on the fireground as well.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-26-2012 at 11:18 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #61
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,087

    Default

    Not derail this wonderful thread, but the Boy Scouts need to rename their weblos "patch"
    I was a former boy scout and I remember our troop leader saying"your bout old enuff to earn your
    wee-blows patch, ta earn it ya have to go acamping" I wasnt the smartest kid , but needless to say , I bailed.
    ?

  12. #62
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I may be.

    My current combo department allows junior firefighters to be involved in live fire training, under direct supervision. when utilizing our propane-fired props. We allow them to be actively involved in live fire training, under supervision, in our burn building. And we allow them to be involved, under supervision when we do live vehicle burns.

    And it's not a problem because they are trained and under supervision when involved in live fire training.

    And it's never been a problem.

    And yes, we use them in some situations in fire suppression, under supervision, on the fireground as well.
    Not that it probably matters to your department given your blatant disregard for federal labor law regarding your paid personnel responding as volunteers, but are you sure these actions are in compliance with state and federal child labor laws? I know juniors are not allowed to participate in those ways in my state.

  13. #63
    MembersZone Subscriber
    tree68's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Jefferson County, NY USA
    Posts
    2,346

    Default

    Some years ago I was in PA for a seminar. One night I heard a small motor running outside my motel room and figured it to be a reefer whose driver was taking a room for the night. Would have made for some great sleeping (not).

    I checked outside and found a controlled burn going on. The motor I heard was the pump on a brush truck. Talking with the firefighter manning the engine I found out that the junior FD was conducting a controlled burn (grass), which they frequently did as a fundraiser. The brush truck in question was, in fact, theirs - bought and paid for by the juniors. Apparently they also responded to groundcover fires, as the FF told me that they couldn't drive their brush truck to a fire, but were sometimes allowed to operate it off-road.

    I don't know if there were other firefighters on the scene with the juniors.

    I'm not here to tell you it was right, wrong, or otherwise. It was what it was. Today it wouldn't be acceptable - in many cases even by a fully competent fire department.

    Allowing the junior/Explorers to play with a little real fire under the proper circumstances helps whet their appetite for the job. It sounds like that was the intent - an isolated pile of brush, burned with the intent of it "going to the ground" anyhow. Squirt a little water and do all the other stuff that surrounds firefighting with minimal risk.

    Except some bubba decided to liven things up a bit by pouring some extra gas on the pile. I've seen gasoline vapor "wander" a fair distance from where it was poured (back in the day when it wasn't verboten). I'm sure we all know at least one person who thinks it's acceptable to spray some extra lighter fluid on their already-burning charcoal grill. It was probably the same guy.

    If the fire had been started using wadded up newspaper (my "accelerant" of choice) we wouldn't be reading about it. The kids would have gotten some experience laying out lines, flowing a little water, and picking up afterward - and there's nothing wrong with that.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  14. #64
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Not that it probably matters to your department given your blatant disregard for federal labor law regarding your paid personnel responding as volunteers, but are you sure these actions are in compliance with state and federal child labor laws? I know juniors are not allowed to participate in those ways in my state.
    We have followed the same policy regarding training our juniors for years.

    Yes, at times we may push the edge of the envelope, but those that we allow a little bit of slack with have completed the skills checklist (which by the way is the exact same checklist used for "grownup" firefighters), have atteneded extra training and demonstrtated the ability to be put in those situations.

    Those juniors that have not completed or demonstrated the above do get some live fire experience, but not to the level of those that have done what it takes to be in that place.

    And because of that, when they turn 18 all we have to do is swap helmets from blue to yellow and they have the live-fire training and a little bit of real world experience behind them to step into the big boy turnouts and become contributing firefighters, not trainees.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #65
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have followed the same policy regarding training our juniors for years.

    Yes, at times we may push the edge of the envelope, but those that we allow a little bit of slack with have completed the skills checklist (which by the way is the exact same checklist used for "grownup" firefighters), have atteneded extra training and demonstrtated the ability to be put in those situations.

    Those juniors that have not completed or demonstrated the above do get some live fire experience, but not to the level of those that have done what it takes to be in that place.

    And because of that, when they turn 18 all we have to do is swap helmets from blue to yellow and they have the live-fire training and a little bit of real world experience behind them to step into the big boy turnouts and become contributing firefighters, not trainees.
    Only continuing to reinforce why your department is a joke.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  16. #66
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Only continuing to reinforce why your department is a joke.
    Really?

    Or maybe it's the reason why in the past couple of years we have had 3 of our former juniors hired full-time by surrounding fire districts within a few months of reaching age 18 and put on the line without any additional training.

    Just saying.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  17. #67
    Forum Member
    snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really?

    Or maybe it's the reason why in the past couple of years we have had 3 of our former juniors hired full-time by surrounding fire districts within a few months of reaching age 18 and put on the line without any additional training.

    Just saying.
    I've heard of turn key lateral firefighters, but never turn key rookies. This is hard for me to believe that any department would just turn a FNG loose without any orientation.
    IAFF

  18. #68
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really?

    Or maybe it's the reason why in the past couple of years we have had 3 of our former juniors hired full-time by surrounding fire districts within a few months of reaching age 18 and put on the line without any additional training.

    Just saying.
    Just because I am good at miniature golf - doesnt mean I am Arnold Palmer
    johnsb likes this.
    ?

  19. #69
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I've heard of turn key lateral firefighters, but never turn key rookies. This is hard for me to believe that any department would just turn a FNG loose without any orientation.
    Most of the fire districts in this area run in very similiar ways.

    The general requirement for hire is FFI and EMT-B, and on occasion FFII, and/or Paramedic (especially if they run transport).

    All of the of the fire districts train the new personnel on procedures during a brief orientation period or on shift after they are hired and do not run academy's as they rely on pre-hire certifications, training and experience (either in house as volunteers or volunteers or career members from other departments).
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-26-2012 at 04:57 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  20. #70
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Just because I am good at miniature golf - doesnt mean I am Arnold Palmer
    But what it does mean is that because of the training and real-world experience we give our juniors, many of them are able to step into paying positions on the fire districts in this area shortly after they turn 18 and test out for FFI/II.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  21. #71
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,339

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I may be.

    My current combo department allows children to be involved in live fire training, under direct supervision, when utilizing our propane-fired props. We allow the children to be actively involved in live fire training, under supervision, in our burn building. And we allow children to be involved, under supervision when we do live vehicle burns.

    And it's not a problem because the children are trained and under supervision when involved in live fire training.

    And it's never been a problem...yet.

    And yes, we use children in some situations in fire suppression, under supervision, on the fireground as well.
    There...I fixed it so it can be better understood just what your idiotic department is doing when you get your *** hauled into court one day.

  22. #72
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Most of the fire districts in this area run in very similiar ways.

    The general requirement for hire is FFI and EMT-B, and on occasion FFII, and/or Paramedic (especially if they run transport).

    All of the of the fire districts train the new personnel on procedures during a brief orientation period or on shift after they are hired and do not run academy's as they rely on pre-hire certifications, training and experience (either in house as volunteers or volunteers or career members from other departments).
    And yet you continue to demean the value of FF1 certification...Things that make you go hmmmm...
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  23. #73
    Forum Member
    GTRider245's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta,GA
    Posts
    3,065

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have followed the same policy regarding training our juniors for years.

    Yes, at times we may push the edge of the envelope, but those that we allow a little bit of slack with have completed the skills checklist (which by the way is the exact same checklist used for "grownup" firefighters), have atteneded extra training and demonstrtated the ability to be put in those situations.

    Those juniors that have not completed or demonstrated the above do get some live fire experience, but not to the level of those that have done what it takes to be in that place.

    And because of that, when they turn 18 all we have to do is swap helmets from blue to yellow and they have the live-fire training and a little bit of real world experience behind them to step into the big boy turnouts and become contributing firefighters, not trainees.
    And yet they still hold the same level of certification they did as juniors: NONE.

    Taj has repeatedly said that your ways of doing things don't represent the rest of the state but if you have area departments who support this then there are some serious shortcomings in the state of Louisiana's fire standards.

    I myself started as an explorer with my volunteer department. I know of 3 others, plus myself, who are now career firefighters that started in that program. When we turned 18 we atteneded an academy, tested and were certified. We did not simply swap helmet colors as a birthday present.

    The idea of that is insane and I have a hard time believing any other departments support it. Yours on the other hand, I can completely understand promoting such a thing.

    What a joke.
    Career Firefighter
    Volunteer Captain

    -Professional in Either Role-

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  24. #74
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Catlettsburg, KY
    Posts
    378

    Default

    I see these threads have not changed. I cannot bring myself to finish reading any of the page 2 replies. I was searching for more information on the young man and I see we continue to be at each others throats.

    I think a point is missed here. we need to simply pray for this young man for a steady and full recovery (which of course will be very hard). No matter what he will be scarred for life. My prayers are with him and his family to stay strong.

    My only point is the Cheif cannot shurk his responsibility in this situation. He should have put someone in cotrol who should know better. He openly admitted HE put the jr. officers in charge. it is the Chief's place to take the majority of the blame. End of story. I am sure there will be criminal charges.

    Vollie Vs. career vs. vollie vs. career has not place on this thread. IMHO
    Last edited by BSFD9302; 09-26-2012 at 09:57 PM.
    EastKyFF, ATFDFF and RyanK63 like this.

  25. #75
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Really?

    Or maybe it's the reason why in the past couple of years we have had 3 of our former juniors hired full-time by surrounding fire districts within a few months of reaching age 18 and put on the line without any additional training.

    Just saying.
    Great to know the districts surrounding your department are jokes as well.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Junior "Firefighter" Program
    By RVFD506 in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-02-2004, 02:35 PM
  2. Station duties for a "junior member?"
    By 42VTExplorer in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-18-2004, 10:48 AM
  3. Another "Training" accident
    By EFD840 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 07-08-2004, 11:56 AM
  4. 63 year old "Crusty" Florida Fire Chief dies
    By sconfire in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-07-2004, 07:06 AM
  5. Firefighter injured by "Jack*****" Teen
    By NJFFSA16 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 05-29-2003, 09:47 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register