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Thread: Training accident... 16 year old "junior firefighter" criticallly injured.

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have followed the same policy regarding training our juniors for years.

    Yes, at times we may push the edge of the envelope, but those that we allow a little bit of slack with have completed the skills checklist (which by the way is the exact same checklist used for "grownup" firefighters), have atteneded extra training and demonstrtated the ability to be put in those situations.

    Those juniors that have not completed or demonstrated the above do get some live fire experience, but not to the level of those that have done what it takes to be in that place.

    And because of that, when they turn 18 all we have to do is swap helmets from blue to yellow and they have the live-fire training and a little bit of real world experience behind them to step into the big boy turnouts and become contributing firefighters, not trainees.
    Yes, but is your department actually in compliance with state and federal child labor laws when you are doing this stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Yes, but is your department actually in compliance with state and federal child labor laws when you are doing this stuff?
    There is no law in Bossier Parish that is higher than the Chief of the Bosier Parish FD. When will you and the rest here ever learn that??
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Or maybe it's the reason why in the past couple of years we have had 3 of our former juniors hired full-time by surrounding fire districts within a few months of reaching age 18 and put on the line without any additional training.

    Just saying.
    As you've been told before, the fact that any of your personnel have been hired by other area fire districts is not proof of the quality of your training program. The fact that some have been put right on the line is also not proof of the quality of your training program. For all we know it could simply mean that these departments have low standards and/or share the same bizarre thinking about the fire service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BSFD9302 View Post
    I think a point is missed here. we need to simply pray for this young man for a steady and full recovery (which of course will be very hard). No matter what he will be scarred for life. My prayers are with him and his family to stay strong.
    I disagree that we are missing that point. I think everybody commenting is concerned about this young man's condition. I think the dialogue in this thread shows that concern. If we weren't concerned about what happened to him, I doubt we'd be discussion and debating what is and isn't appropriate participation for juniors.

    Not everybody is religious and prays over situations. Besides, we may already be praying for him, but didn't feel the need to announce it publicly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    And yet they still hold the same level of certification they did as juniors: NONE.

    Taj has repeatedly said that your ways of doing things don't represent the rest of the state but if you have area departments who support this then there are some serious shortcomings in the state of Louisiana's fire standards.

    I myself started as an explorer with my volunteer department. I know of 3 others, plus myself, who are now career firefighters that started in that program. When we turned 18 we atteneded an academy, tested and were certified. We did not simply swap helmet colors as a birthday present.

    The idea of that is insane and I have a hard time believing any other departments support it. Yours on the other hand, I can completely understand promoting such a thing.

    What a joke.
    No.

    If they are interested in trying to get hired, once they hit 18 they will test out as they likely have taken FFI before they turned 18, so they have the certification in hand within a month or two of turning 18.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    There is no law in Bossier Parish that is higher than the Chief of the Bosier Parish FD. When will you and the rest here ever learn that??
    My apologies, I just can't stop all that book learnin' that runs around in my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    No.

    If they are interested in trying to get hired, once they hit 18 they will test out as they likely have taken FFI before they turned 18, so they have the certification in hand within a month or two of turning 18.
    You can take FFI before you turn 18?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    You can take FFI before you turn 18?
    In many areas, yes, the certification will be issued to you on your 18th birthday but you may complete the course before than.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    You can take FFI before you turn 18?
    In Pa. a person under the age of 18 may take FFI, however they may not participate in ANY interior evolutions involving live fire. (fake smoke, SCBA maze, etc are ok.) All interior live fire work must be done after the age of 18. The Montgomery County Fire Academy in fact, usually sponsors several "post-age 18" burns just for these specific trainees involving the live fire evolutions; once they have these burns and successfully pass they are issued their certs.

    Way back many moons ago I took FFI at the Burlington County, NJ Fire Academy when I was just 16. Even though I was from Pa and not allowed to enter a burning bldg, they insisted that I was ok because in NJ you could do so as a trainee. I had my FFI prior to turning 17. I understand things have changed since to a system similar to Pa.
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    You should probably know what youíre talking about before you post stuff to the internet for all see.

    First, in monroe county only about half of the departments still appoint officers. The majority of the departments in monroe now elect their officers and have some sort of certification/qualification requirement.

    Second, the department that had this unfortunate incident happen is not at all the backwoods social club you describe. I have been in the fire service in monroe county for 15 years and I have worked with the department you seem to have an issue with on numerous occasions and they are a very good department. I don't think you have any right to run your mouth about a company you have very little if any experience working with. I think you would be surprised if you actually knew what certifications and experience their members and officers do have. Iím sure in your long fire service career of 2 years youíve learned enough in classes to show everybody a thing or two. You only know of the RIT classes that department recently took because they offered them to other companies. What a bunch of redneck jerks huh? Maybe they are taking these classes to get their newer members familiar with the RIT procedures. Maybe, just maybe the senior members that have been in a bit longer than 2 years have taken the classes in the past. I know that possibly canít be true since you didnít know about it.

    Third, the training center in this county does offer useful classes, just not the classes you want it seems. Have you made the effort to contact the person in charge of setting up courses to make suggestions??? The county offers a lot of beginner level courses because monroe has a lot of young firefighters who need the courses and because the younger firefighters actually show up for class! Monroe offered different classes before and everybody would get all excited and sign up and then when class day came around the same 5 people would show up and class would be cancelled because there were not enough people to hold the class. Most of the certification courses and tests you made reference to can not be held here. The facility is not equipped or approved for the majority of them.

    Lastly, if your so unhappy at how this county runs and how the fire departments operate there is an easy answer to that which is go somewhere else where everything runs like clockwork and accidents donít happen.

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    You should probably know what youíre talking about before you post stuff to the internet for all see.
    First, in monroe county only about half of the departments still appoint officers. The majority of the departments in monroe now elect their officers and have some sort of certification/qualification requirement.
    Second, the department that had this unfortunate incident happen is not at all the backwoods social club you describe. I have been in the fire service in monroe county for 15 years and I have worked with the department you seem to have an issue with on numerous occasions and they are a very good department. I don't think you have any right to run your mouth about a company you have very little if any experience working with. I think you would be surprised if you actually knew what certifications and experience their members and officers do have. Iím sure in your long fire service career of 2 years youíve learned enough in classes to show everybody a thing or two. You only know of the RIT classes that department recently took because they offered them to other companies. What a bunch of redneck jerks huh? Maybe they are taking these classes to get their newer members familiar with the RIT procedures. Maybe, just maybe the senior members that have been in a bit longer than 2 years have taken the classes in the past. I know that possibly canít be true since you didnít know about it.
    Third, the training center in this county does offer useful classes, just not the classes you want it seems. Have you made the effort to contact the person in charge of setting up courses to make suggestions??? The county offers a lot of beginner level courses because monroe has a lot of young firefighters who need the courses and because the younger firefighters actually show up for class! Monroe offered different classes before and everybody would get all excited and sign up and then when class day came around the same 5 people would show up and class would be cancelled because there were not enough people to hold the class. Most of the certification courses and tests you made reference to can not be held here. The facility is not equipped or approved for the majority of them.
    Lastly, if your so unhappy at how this county runs and how the fire departments operate there is an easy answer to that which is go somewhere else where everything runs like clockwork and accidents donít happen.

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    [QUOTE=BigGriffC12;1341397]As this is in my county, I feel the need to add a little insight...

    You should probably know what youíre talking about before you post stuff to the internet for all see.

    First, in monroe county only about half of the departments still appoint officers. The majority of the departments in monroe now elect their officers and have some sort of certification/qualification requirement.

    Second, the department that had this unfortunate incident happen is not at all the backwoods social club you describe. I have been in the fire service in monroe county for 15 years and I have worked with the department you seem to have an issue with on numerous occasions and they are a very good department. I don't think you have any right to run your mouth about a company you have very little if any experience working with. I think you would be surprised if you actually knew what certifications and experience their members and officers do have. Iím sure in your long fire service career of 2 years youíve learned enough in classes to show everybody a thing or two. You only know of the RIT classes that department recently took because they offered them to other companies. What a bunch of redneck jerks huh? Maybe they are taking these classes to get their newer members familiar with the RIT procedures. Maybe, just maybe the senior members that have been in a bit longer than 2 years have taken the classes in the past. I know that possibly canít be true since you didnít know about it.

    Third, the training center in this county does offer useful classes, just not the classes you want it seems. Have you made the effort to contact the person in charge of setting up courses to make suggestions??? The county offers a lot of beginner level courses because monroe has a lot of young firefighters who need the courses and because the younger firefighters actually show up for class! Monroe offered different classes before and everybody would get all excited and sign up and then when class day came around the same 5 people would show up and class would be cancelled because there were not enough people to hold the class. Most of the certification courses and tests you made reference to can not be held here. The facility is not equipped or approved for the majority of them.

    Lastly, if your so unhappy at how this county runs and how the fire departments operate there is an easy answer to that which is go somewhere else where everything runs like clockwork and accidents donít happen.

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    Yes, you can take the class but not participate in live burns.

    Since our juniors are already participating in limited live burns as part of our department training, they receive that side of the class in-house if they are taking a class taught by the state or another department where the age is an issue. If we are teaching the FFI class in-house, they participate in the live burns along with the rest of the class.

    They will take their practicals right after turning 18 and then test the written the first available test date, which is every month in our area.

    Now that the state is requiring operations, that date has to be pushed back as they have to test for awareness and operations first, but once again, they can still take the classes before they turn 18.

    In LA, you actually do not have to take either class as you can challenge any certification test at any time.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 09-27-2012 at 10:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    ...Way back many moons ago I took FFI at the Burlington County, NJ Fire Academy when I was just 16. Even though I was from Pa and not allowed to enter a burning bldg, they insisted that I was ok because in NJ you could do so as a trainee. I had my FFI prior to turning 17. I understand things have changed since to a system similar to Pa.
    Yes, things in NJ have changed. I had my FF1 at age 17 in NJ long enough ago. Most academies in NJ will not accept anyone under the age of 18 anymore. It does happen if the birthday will occur before the first hands on activity, but that is a case by case basis.
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    I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but something Bones42 struck me.

    In 1984, I joined the US Navy at 17. During boot camp I had a week of shipboard firefighting training, live fire. No SCBA, No OBA, ww2 era steel pot helmet, pair of gloves, cotton shirt buttoned up, dungaree pants tucked into our wool socks, ankle-high steel toe leather shoes (ie boondockers) was all the safety gear we had.

    We used Navy Brass Nozzles, sometimes with low velocity fog applicators.

    The fire was in concrete buildings, they would have a pool of water in them. They would put enough diesel over the water that it would burn, then send us into that thick black smoke to fight it.

    4 years later, I attended Advanced Shipboard Firefighting, 2 week course. Same safety gear with the addition of an OBA for a breathing apparatus, and we used foam for some of the fires. Same sort of concrete buildings, diesel fires, just more complex scenarios

    These days, I work with a small, professionally built burn building. We use only small Class A fires. We don't allow junior firefighters to be within 50' of the burn building when there is a fire in it. If we want to give them hose stream training, we have them aim at targets that are not burning.

    These are kids, they are in a hurry to grow up. I know I was. Fire is fun. They think they know everything. But they don't, they don't know how mortal they are. Its my job to protect them from themselves. If I do a good job, they have the rest of their life to learn how to do it better than me.

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    [QUOTE=bob1983;1341880]
    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    As this is in my county, I feel the need to add a little insight...

    You should probably know what you’re talking about before you post stuff to the internet for all see.

    First, in monroe county only about half of the departments still appoint officers. The majority of the departments in monroe now elect their officers and have some sort of certification/qualification requirement.

    Second, the department that had this unfortunate incident happen is not at all the backwoods social club you describe. I have been in the fire service in monroe county for 15 years and I have worked with the department you seem to have an issue with on numerous occasions and they are a very good department. I don't think you have any right to run your mouth about a company you have very little if any experience working with. I think you would be surprised if you actually knew what certifications and experience their members and officers do have. I’m sure in your long fire service career of 2 years you’ve learned enough in classes to show everybody a thing or two. You only know of the RIT classes that department recently took because they offered them to other companies. What a bunch of redneck jerks huh? Maybe they are taking these classes to get their newer members familiar with the RIT procedures. Maybe, just maybe the senior members that have been in a bit longer than 2 years have taken the classes in the past. I know that possibly can’t be true since you didn’t know about it.

    Third, the training center in this county does offer useful classes, just not the classes you want it seems. Have you made the effort to contact the person in charge of setting up courses to make suggestions??? The county offers a lot of beginner level courses because monroe has a lot of young firefighters who need the courses and because the younger firefighters actually show up for class! Monroe offered different classes before and everybody would get all excited and sign up and then when class day came around the same 5 people would show up and class would be cancelled because there were not enough people to hold the class. Most of the certification courses and tests you made reference to can not be held here. The facility is not equipped or approved for the majority of them.

    Lastly, if your so unhappy at how this county runs and how the fire departments operate there is an easy answer to that which is go somewhere else where everything runs like clockwork and accidents don’t happen.
    Well bro, lets pick this piece of work that you felt the need to post 3 times to try and make a point obviously..and lets talk about it shall we?

    *So you consider electing officers as an efficient way to provide leadership on the fire ground? So I'm sure that there are no places where the politics of the fire company take presidence over actual qualifications? And where exactly are these fire departments located at? station numbers will work for me..because last time I checked my fire dept I'm apart of, proudly has the most members qualified to FFI, and II...since FFII is a per-requisite for instructor which is a per-requisite for fire officer I I highly doubt that many of these LTs, Capts, and Chief officers are qualified per NFPA guidelines.

    *You want to comment on my 2 years of fire service experience..I guess I forgot to mention that years upon years attending state wide fire service organizational meetings and functions through out my teens prior to joining the army and deploying overseas..My grandfather fought to get workman's compensation for volunteers in PA many moons ago, my grandfather was also acquaintances with Chet Henry, the former state fire commissioner. I was 8 years old attending the PA fire service institute function in harrisburg listening to seminars from LA emergency personnel talking about the LA riots..AND I'm sure in my 2 years of experience I've picked up more knowledge, experience and cross training then you could ever dream of....please try to challenge me.

    *The Jackson Twp Fire Company burned a child..they burned a child who wanted to learn a honorable trade..They scarred him for life..he will never be the same no matter how much money he milks out of that fire house (although their new KME rescue might help)..The stares from people, the silent comments about his scars..maybe you don't find that to be an issue..

    *This was NO ACCIDENT..as I've been briefed by numerous county EMS personnel, including an operations director..When the incident happened, the initial call was for minor burns..and to not make alot of noise with sirens and stuff..Once EMS personnel was on scene they immediately made the call to medevac him due to burns to the face...apparently the child tried to shield his face from the flames, fusing his hand to his face...and the junior officers on scene felt the need to try and cover that up...And then when the chief was interviewed, the slob felt the need to try and point the finger at someone else "Uh.,I wasn't there, my asst. chief wasn't there, it was a junior officer" Yeah..no accident..and if you stand up for any of those clowns over there you're another scumbag scab on the volunteer fire service.

    And as far as the county training facility, I know the director of operations personally..The Director that insists on continuing a Delmar training program for essentials that is absolute garbage, that puts out inferior firefighters who then need to be re-trained at the company level..The program only has 2 decent instructors..and I'm sure you don't know who they are...And why doesn't the county provide more certification programs like D/O pumper, aerial, and mobile water supply? is because the majority of people in the county don't feel the need to train or certify on anything because studying is hard.right? No interest..that is the reasons more courses aren't offered there..there should be training there EVERY weekend..but there isn't because no one in the county wants to train...

    I am unhappy about how this county's emergency services are run..Why aren't we using plain speak and still using 10 codes? Why are so many fire companies proud of saving a foundation? There is no training here..there is maybe 5 or 6 fire companies excluding the Army Depot that are actually worth ANYTHING...and that is a shame..

    Fact of the matter is..is there was NO suppression level instructor on site of this training burn, Fact of the matter is that no officer or senior firefighter felt the need to ensure that this junior firefighter was properly wearing his PPE, Fact of the matter is, that they tried to tone down how serious this child was burned so as not to make them bad..Fact of the matter is, that this fire company from the head down was solely responsible for the physical and emotional scarring of a 16 year old man with his whole life in front of him..He and his parents/guardians put his safety in the hands of the officers and senior firefighters of the Jackson Township Volunteer Fire Company and they failed...The Township supervisors made no attempt to make sure that the fire protection that they are obligated to provide the community was adequately trained, and supervised...I hope that This kid sues this Fire Company DRY...for every penny they are worth...because he and his family deserve that much..He is going to relive this nightmare EVERY day of his life..It's disgusting..And many of the firefighters who post on this page feel the same exact way as I do, and some of them are VERY influential in the fire service..Something will be done..This Crime..Yes it is a Crime..will not go unpunished..If I have to write letters to senators, and congressmen myself..This is disgusting.
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    Hey Bob1983, how about the opinion of a 22 year career and volly vet from a neighboring County who used to own land in Jackson Twp?

    Yes, they are a bunch of bass-ackwards hillbillies, I have seen it first hand. Yes they are an embarrasment to the fire service. Yes, Jackson Township SHOULD seriously think about having their entire organization operationally audited so that they can see just how backwards these guys are. And lastly, the highest-ranking azzhole who was on the scene of this tragic crime (yes, crime- not an accident....) deserves to do jail time for attempted manslaughter. And if the Chief has any decency and intestinal fortitude, he will resign immediately. But I'm not holding my breath.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    Fact of the matter is..is there was NO suppression level instructor on site of this training burn, Fact of the matter is that no officer or senior firefighter felt the need to ensure that this junior firefighter was properly wearing his PPE, Fact of the matter is, that they tried to tone down how serious this child was burned so as not to make them bad..Fact of the matter is, that this fire company from the head down was solely responsible for the physical and emotional scarring of a 16 year old man with his whole life in front of him..He and his parents/guardians put his safety in the hands of the officers and senior firefighters of the Jackson Township Volunteer Fire Company and they failed...The Township supervisors made no attempt to make sure that the fire protection that they are obligated to provide the community was adequately trained, and supervised...I hope that This kid sues this Fire Company DRY...for every penny they are worth...because he and his family deserve that much..He is going to relive this nightmare EVERY day of his life..It's disgusting..And many of the firefighters who post on this page feel the same exact way as I do, and some of them are VERY influential in the fire service..Something will be done..This Crime..Yes it is a Crime..
    I couldnt have said it better Griffy.
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    And did you see the chief? His facial hair is NOT NFPA compliant...Did you see how he presented himself in front of the media? If he can't dig out a class A uniform or at least something with sleeves on..when talking to the media, he afterall is a representation of his troops....if he has no standards for himself, what do you think he requires of his men? Just saying..

    People want to drive the chief's car and play with lights and sirens and radios and be on TV and look like the hero....but then when they make a bad call, first ones to point the finger at someone else...

    It's a shame that someone got hurt, but hopefully something positive will come from this..for the child, and for the community...

    2.5 Gallons of gas is totally unacceptable..

    To revisit a post by Bones..when I was a webelo in the cub scouts we learned to start fires with kindling and tinder...not enough gas to get me to new york city and back if I drove a Prius.
    Last edited by BigGriffC12; 09-29-2012 at 07:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fotowun View Post
    That being said, I've never heard of a property owner around here asking for the fire department to assist with burning a brush pile.
    You should come out to P-Town a little more often, brother! We standby/assist with brush piles and burning off fields several times a year.
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    And now we have a 17 year old "junior firefighter" killed in Delaware. Allowing kids to function on fire calls and outside of strict training supervision has got to stop.

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    Bob 1983

    I don't care how great you think this department is. Anybody that uses gas to start a contolled burn has NO business be in a LEADSHIP roll in a fire department. Any Chief officer should make sure that his officers are following all saftey standards with any controlled burn. There is no excuse for this happening. In my mind there is no way that anyone can justify what happened to this young man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigGriffC12 View Post
    ...The Director that insists on continuing a Delmar training program for essentials that is absolute garbage...
    NJ chose Delmar as it's FF1 curriculum because it was determined by a panel of fire instructors to be better.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Found my own answer......Webelos. Age range 7 to 11 1/2.

    Interesting....Boy Scouts of America teach kids under the age of 12 (well below the 16 above) to build and burn fires. I'm fairly sure they teach how to do it without using gasoline.

    So I gather it's Ok to teach a 12 year old how to build and burn a fire, but not teach a 16 year old (with protective gear - but not correctly worn) how to put it out.


    I think the big issue here is the lack of supervision.


    I do agree with the lack of supervision aspect, curious as to your question regarding scouts. Are you alluding to the Explorer programs that FD can be involved with, or are you asking from a general curiosity?

    If asking about Explorer programs, I would bet this dept was not involved with the Explorer element (which is ultimately governed by the Boy Scouts). Explorer posts mandate a set of rules that must be followed and some aspects are kids will NOT be involved in live fire training, nor fire suppression activities, and includes limitations like they can't climb aerials etc. Junior programs, otoh, can be established by any dept and thus governed by the leadership....or lack thereof....and tends to give such programs a bad name. I would say this kid was involved in a junior FF program within a dept with inept adults and an inept training program.



    As for the aspect of kids learning to build fire etc within the Boy Scouts, yes it is a basic skill passed on. The issue is that Boy Scouts is based in the camping element and fire is a large aspect of camping and wilderness survival. Along with the skills to build a fire, the scouts do stress a respect for fire.

    As for teaching kids to extinguish fire in PPE etc, why? The possibility of a Boy Scout getting lost and thus relying on those wilderness survival skills would be more likely than a damn kid having to rely upon fighting a fire.......because the kid should not be there in the first place. Furthermore, those junior programs that tout these programs as a training aspect are clueless in their delivery then, because they should not be. Explorers is about giving a kid a taste of the job to see if this is something they may wish to pursue. Juniors have a different goal, but to use such programs as a training ground is wrong. There are plenty of adult FFs, who never started in such programs, who went on to become successful FFs. There is no reason to train children to be FFs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jccrabby3084 View Post
    I do agree with the lack of supervision aspect, curious as to your question regarding scouts. Are you alluding to the Explorer programs that FD can be involved with, or are you asking from a general curiosity?

    If asking about Explorer programs, I would bet this dept was not involved with the Explorer element (which is ultimately governed by the Boy Scouts). Explorer posts mandate a set of rules that must be followed and some aspects are kids will NOT be involved in live fire training, nor fire suppression activities, and includes limitations like they can't climb aerials etc. Junior programs, otoh, can be established by any dept and thus governed by the leadership....or lack thereof....and tends to give such programs a bad name. I would say this kid was involved in a junior FF program within a dept with inept adults and an inept training program.



    As for the aspect of kids learning to build fire etc within the Boy Scouts, yes it is a basic skill passed on. The issue is that Boy Scouts is based in the camping element and fire is a large aspect of camping and wilderness survival. Along with the skills to build a fire, the scouts do stress a respect for fire.

    As for teaching kids to extinguish fire in PPE etc, why? The possibility of a Boy Scout getting lost and thus relying on those wilderness survival skills would be more likely than a damn kid having to rely upon fighting a fire.......because the kid should not be there in the first place. Furthermore, those junior programs that tout these programs as a training aspect are clueless in their delivery then, because they should not be. Explorers is about giving a kid a taste of the job to see if this is something they may wish to pursue. Juniors have a different goal, but to use such programs as a training ground is wrong. There are plenty of adult FFs, who never started in such programs, who went on to become successful FFs. There is no reason to train children to be FFs.
    Maybe I read into his post all wrong but I thought (and again I may be wrong) that he was making a point about how we baby the heck out of juniors right now. Fact is when my son is 10 or 12 (most surely by 14) he should be able to put a ladder up, climb up it, and clean out a 10 ft gutter...nothing unsafe at all about teaching a kid to do that. But in the fire service we complain and moan every time a 17 year old gets hurt falling off a ladder. I sure hope that when my kids 14 he can start a brush pile up using diesel when conditions are right. Will he cut himself with a pocket knife when hes young Im sure, he will prob burn himself at some point playing with fire or fireworks or getting something out of the oven. The goal is not to protect him from these things, its to teach him how to do these things safely. Its absurd to think that you can safely train an 18 year old to put out a car fire or pull ceiling during overhaul but you can't teach a 16 year old those things. Heck with 2 weeks I could prob teach a 12 year old to put out a car fire safely and effectively with proper protection, I could damn sure teach him to start a fire safely or put a ladder up and climb it. I could teach a 12-14 year old how to use 95% of the equipment on a firetruck (At least). Any 16 year old passing a highschool level math class could pump the wheels off any truck with a little practice...

    Point being, the issue at hand has nothing to do with juniors, it has to do with delayed education (and poor education at that). If this had happened with a 25 year old or a 30 year old no one would be making such a big deal, it would have been tragic but he "should have known better". To say a 16 year old is naive and is putting all his trust in an older officer is bogus, I don't want anyone on my fire department that thought it was okay to use gas on a fire at 16 years old....

    Teach your kids how to become adults...don't wait for kids to become "legal" adults to start teaching them how to act like adults...



    And again I apologize is I totally was off with reading into your post, Im not saying this is your opinion but I feel like I read a little into you saying that if the boy scouts can teach someone to start a campfire at 12 or 14 than why is it unreasonable to have a 16 year old lighting a brush fire...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialaigh View Post
    Maybe I read into his post all wrong but I thought (and again I may be wrong) that he was making a point about how we baby the heck out of juniors right now. Fact is when my son is 10 or 12 (most surely by 14) he should be able to put a ladder up, climb up it, and clean out a 10 ft gutter...nothing unsafe at all about teaching a kid to do that. But in the fire service we complain and moan every time a 17 year old gets hurt falling off a ladder. I sure hope that when my kids 14 he can start a brush pile up using diesel when conditions are right. Will he cut himself with a pocket knife when hes young Im sure, he will prob burn himself at some point playing with fire or fireworks or getting something out of the oven. The goal is not to protect him from these things, its to teach him how to do these things safely. Its absurd to think that you can safely train an 18 year old to put out a car fire or pull ceiling during overhaul but you can't teach a 16 year old those things. Heck with 2 weeks I could prob teach a 12 year old to put out a car fire safely and effectively with proper protection, I could damn sure teach him to start a fire safely or put a ladder up and climb it. I could teach a 12-14 year old how to use 95% of the equipment on a firetruck (At least). Any 16 year old passing a highschool level math class could pump the wheels off any truck with a little practice...

    Point being, the issue at hand has nothing to do with juniors, it has to do with delayed education (and poor education at that). If this had happened with a 25 year old or a 30 year old no one would be making such a big deal, it would have been tragic but he "should have known better". To say a 16 year old is naive and is putting all his trust in an older officer is bogus, I don't want anyone on my fire department that thought it was okay to use gas on a fire at 16 years old....

    Teach your kids how to become adults...don't wait for kids to become "legal" adults to start teaching them how to act like adults...



    And again I apologize is I totally was off with reading into your post, Im not saying this is your opinion but I feel like I read a little into you saying that if the boy scouts can teach someone to start a campfire at 12 or 14 than why is it unreasonable to have a 16 year old lighting a brush fire...
    The dfference is LIABILITY! Assuming it is legal you can teach your kids anything you want to teach them, from lighting a fire with diesel fuel to climbing a ladder to operating power tools to shooting fire arms. If you injure or kill your kid in those endeavors it is no one's fault but your own and you have no one to go after in a lawsuit. If a fire department runs a youth program and injures or kills someone they are liable and most likely will lose their *****.

    To me the issue is more who wants to use kids for firefighters and who wants to do the safe and proper educational exposure to the fire service youth program.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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