+ Reply to Thread
Page 6 of 6 First ... 3456
Like Tree40Likes

Thread: Training accident... 16 year old "junior firefighter" criticallly injured.

  1. #126
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    You're looking too far into the question. It really had nothing to do with the "control" or "danger" of the two examples. It was simply about two "training opportunities" and how the fire service tends to view the imposition of rules by a third party on what the fire service can do in these two specific areas.

    The insurance company says no drivers under 18 (or 21) and we obey. The state says no live fire for minors and we seem to have a number of people looking for ways to skirt the rules or outright ignore them. Why is that?
    No, I'm not looking too far into the question. There is no question, in my mind, as to whether to follow the law or ignore it. It's followed, plain and simple. My point is that obviously there are people that don't agree with the law, there are people who feel the fire service is capable of safely training people, and maybe those laws are outdated/wrong/etc. Just because I think the law is silly and don't believe in it, does not mean I don't follow it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  2. #127
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    jccrabby3084, I have a very small sampling of retired Navy personnel that were involved with fire fighting duties. Suffice it to say, you have a far better opinion of Navy fire training than they do.

    I respect your opinions, but if you feel that fire fighters can be just as well trained for duty without actually having any fire in that training....we will have to agree to disagree.

    To me, that's like having an airline pilot who has never flown an actual aircraft, but has hours in a simulator. The simulator is good training...but not as good.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  3. #128
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,085

    Default

    Again maybe Im misreading things. But it seems like a lot of people seem to think that by "starting em early" that they will not only have a leg up early,but will continue to be ahead of the pack.Many times , I have found the exact opposite. The "station rats" are so focused on firefighting that if it wasnt taught in FF1 or 2 they havent learned it. Where as a guy joins up that has a broader "life experence" will be able to adapt to situations that arent in the book. Nothing wrong with a kid spending some time at the station, but many are so eat up with firefighting that they are missing out on on a lot of life.
    ?

  4. #129
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    No, I'm not looking too far into the question. There is no question, in my mind, as to whether to follow the law or ignore it. It's followed, plain and simple. My point is that obviously there are people that don't agree with the law, there are people who feel the fire service is capable of safely training people, and maybe those laws are outdated/wrong/etc. Just because I think the law is silly and don't believe in it, does not mean I don't follow it.
    I understand your point and am not trying to insinuate that you personally would not follow the applicable laws.

    The law says no live fire for minors and you appear to think it's "silly" and creates "lost training opportunities" that can provide future benefit. I'm not specifically sure if the law prevents a (licensed) minor to drive fire apparatus, but in all in likelihood, your insurance policy sets the minimum at 18 or 21. Whether or not this is "silly" may be debatable, but as I said before, it can easily be argued that this restriction also creates "lost training opportunities" that can provide future benefit. Do you feel the same way about both restrictions and why do you feel that way?

  5. #130
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    Our insurance requires 21 to drive an apparatus in emergency conditions. Licensed driver can drive them in non-emergent situations.

    Do I think the rule requiring age of 21 to drive in emergency mode is silly? Yes. What makes a 21 year old magically a better driver than a 20 and 11 months year old? I think a properly trained licensed driver should be allowed to drive. Are there 17-20 year olds not capable of driving? Yup. Are there 21+ year olds not capable of driving? Yup.

    And again, I don't have dual steering wheels nor dual brake pedals to give me control of the truck when they are driving....so I am not as comfortable with those "lost" training opportunities. I can control a guy holding a hose pointing it at a small stack of pallets.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  6. #131
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    Do I think the rule requiring age of 21 to drive in emergency mode is silly? Yes. What makes a 21 year old magically a better driver than a 20 and 11 months year old? I think a properly trained licensed driver should be allowed to drive. Are there 17-20 year olds not capable of driving? Yup. Are there 21+ year olds not capable of driving? Yup.
    The difference is that departments should be taking full advantage of the loophole in the law that allows those under 21 to drive in non-emergency situations.
    But I would agree, many a standard based solely on age are misguided. But in lieu of a standard, what other option is there? Hell, even with OSHA, NIOSH reports, state law, accepted practices based on NFPA, federal law, the fire service still manages to kill/hurt/maim children and adults in alarming fashion. In so called "training" situations.
    Had this incident been a kid in his own back yard, and 1 moronic moment, it surely wouldn't be any less tragic for him and his family, but that's it. It would have been a local story. But the fact is, he was with and under the supervision of adults, who, from the article are purported to be trained fire professionals. So hence it's now a national issue, proved by the very fact we are here discussing it.
    So until there is an accepted minimum standard adopted nationwide, and not just any hayseed can call themselves a firefighter, age limits are really the only alternative.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 10-05-2012 at 11:09 AM.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  7. #132
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Green Bay
    Posts
    1,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    jccrabby3084, I have a very small sampling of retired Navy personnel that were involved with fire fighting duties. Suffice it to say, you have a far better opinion of Navy fire training than they do.

    I respect your opinions, but if you feel that fire fighters can be just as well trained for duty without actually having any fire in that training....we will have to agree to disagree.

    To me, that's like having an airline pilot who has never flown an actual aircraft, but has hours in a simulator. The simulator is good training...but not as good.

    And yet it is still considered good enough for the vets out there. The simple fact remains in the Navy, firefighting is a huge deal and is stressed on every platform out there. Of which there really is only a small handful of further trained personnel who are tasked with training the rest of the crew. Sure many people don't receive much more live fire training outside of a brief bootcamp introduction, but they are still expected to perform. So you have multiple training and done quite often, which creates a "muscle memory", and yet in those actual events, personnel still respond accordingly.

    I would agree with the flight simulator aspect as well, but what you seem to be losing touch with is the fact that this is only an introduction into FF with such programs NOT a training academy. A pilot can have hours in the simulator, but before they get a license they do incur time behind the controls and so forth.

    Same aspect here....these are CHILDREN....I could care less about their maturity levels and so forth....until one turns 18, they are considered children. There is no reason to have children engaged in FF operations, nor a reason that they should be exposed to live fire training then. There is much that they can learn without being involved with live fire training and much to help them when they do perhaps decide to become a full member when they reach adulthood and go for their FF CERTIFICATIONS. Until then, there is no reason they need to be trained with live fire, because there is already enough proof within the fire service that much can be learned without having to be exposed to live fire events to do so.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 6 of 6 First ... 3456

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Junior "Firefighter" Program
    By RVFD506 in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-02-2004, 02:35 PM
  2. Station duties for a "junior member?"
    By 42VTExplorer in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-18-2004, 10:48 AM
  3. Another "Training" accident
    By EFD840 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 07-08-2004, 11:56 AM
  4. 63 year old "Crusty" Florida Fire Chief dies
    By sconfire in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-07-2004, 07:06 AM
  5. Firefighter injured by "Jack*****" Teen
    By NJFFSA16 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 05-29-2003, 09:47 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register