Like Tree75Likes

Thread: Union Thuggery in NJ

  1. #226
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,301

    Default

    [QUOTE=DeputyChiefGonzo;1349413]You still haven't answered the question... Name one overpaid fire department... just one....

    [QUOTE]

    He can't because everything he has quoted in his post is more lies.

    I would wager that the 2 guys that told him the FD buys their food laugh their asses off at him about that whopper he fell for.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  2. #227
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,430

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I would wager that the 2 guys that told him the FD buys their food laugh their asses off at him about that whopper he fell for.
    Yup. You called that one. Not only is he a chicken schit about fighting fires, he's a chicken schit about backing what he says......
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  3. #228
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Call it what you want.

    Shift personnel are paid for their availability while sleeping and relaxing watching TV.

    I worked part-time for a district where I was paid minimum wage from 10PM-6AM unless we went on a run. Obviously that is a rare exception.
    The truth of the matter is the communities that have paid personnel recognize the hazard of no guarantee ever of any response with volunteers or paid on call personnel. Is that a rip on vollies? Nope, but it is the truth and you know it. The community has decided they want career paid personnel in quarters 24/7/365 so that a response is 100% guaranteed every time the tones drop. You don't want to admit that it chafes your azz that that is the REAL REASON for career personnel is a call volume that is far too high for vollies to handle so they begin to fade away and soon the response is not only inadequate but downright dangerous for the community and the very few vollies that still responded.

    So yes, there are times we are watching tv, or reading, or on the internet, or even sleeping, but that does not change the true reason we are there. We are there because the community wants a guaranteed response in a timely manner so that lives and property have a better chance of being saved. I will not apologize for that, and frankly who gives a crap what you think anyways. How many hours a week do you waste here on line during your daytime shift? If you job is so critical and so vital to the safety of the community how can you justify sitting behind your desk spreading nonsense on the internet? You are a far greater slug on your communities resource because YOU are supposed to be working, not wasting valuable time during that short shift you work. Once again your hypocrisy holds no bounds...
    Last edited by FyredUp; 11-29-2012 at 11:38 PM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  4. #229
    Forum Member
    snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The truth of the matter is the communities that have paid personnel recognize the hazard of no guarantee ever of any response with volunteers or paid on call personnel. Is that a rip on vollies? Nope, but it is the truth and you know it. The community has decided they want career paid personnel in quarters 24/7/365 so that a response is 100% guaranteed every time the tones drop. You don't want to admit that it chafes your azz that that is the REAL REASON for career personnel is a call volume that is far too high for vollies to handle so they begin to fade away and soon the response is not only inadequate but downright dangerous for the community and the very few vollies that still responded.

    So yes, there are times we are watching tv, or reading, or on the internet, or even sleeping, but that does not change the true reason we are there. We are there because the community wants a guaranteed response in a timely manner so that lives and property have a better chance of being saved. I will not apologize for that, and frankly who gives a crap what you think anyways. How many hours a week do you waste here on line during your daytime shift? If you job is so critical and so vital to the safety of the community how can you justify sitting behind your desk spreading nonsense on the internet? You are a far greater slug on your communities resource because YOU are supposed to be working, not wasting valuable time during that short shift you work. Once again your hypocrisy holds no bounds...
    I would like to initiate a standing ovation for this spot-on post. Anyone care to join me?

    LA, there is a term that actual firefighters use, I suggest you learn the meaning of B.O.H.I.C.A...
    FWDbuff, scfire86, rm1524 and 1 others like this.
    IAFF

  5. #230
    Forum Member
    RyanK63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Fleetville, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Call it what you want.

    Shift personnel are paid for their availability while sleeping and relaxing watching TV.

    I worked part-time for a district where I was paid minimum wage from 10PM-6AM unless we went on a run. Obviously that is a rare exception.
    Is it hard to breathe with your head so far up your ***?
    "If it was easy, someone else would of done it already." - Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

    - Firefighter 1 / HAZMAT Ops / EMT-B

  6. #231
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I would like to initiate a standing ovation for this spot-on post. Anyone care to join me?

    LA, there is a term that actual firefighters use, I suggest you learn the meaning of B.O.H.I.C.A...
    Thanks Brother!
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  7. #232
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The truth of the matter is the communities that have paid personnel recognize the hazard of no guarantee ever of any response with volunteers or paid on call personnel. Is that a rip on vollies? Nope, but it is the truth and you know it. The community has decided they want career paid personnel in quarters 24/7/365 so that a response is 100% guaranteed every time the tones drop. You don't want to admit that it chafes your azz that that is the REAL REASON for career personnel is a call volume that is far too high for vollies to handle so they begin to fade away and soon the response is not only inadequate but downright dangerous for the community and the very few vollies that still responded.

    So yes, there are times we are watching tv, or reading, or on the internet, or even sleeping, but that does not change the true reason we are there. We are there because the community wants a guaranteed response in a timely manner so that lives and property have a better chance of being saved. I will not apologize for that, and frankly who gives a crap what you think anyways. How many hours a week do you waste here on line during your daytime shift? If you job is so critical and so vital to the safety of the community how can you justify sitting behind your desk spreading nonsense on the internet? You are a far greater slug on your communities resource because YOU are supposed to be working, not wasting valuable time during that short shift you work. Once again your hypocrisy holds no bounds...
    Bravo!!!!!!!!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  8. #233
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The truth of the matter is the communities that have paid personnel recognize the hazard of no guarantee ever of any response with volunteers or paid on call personnel. Is that a rip on vollies? Nope, but it is the truth and you know it. The community has decided they want career paid personnel in quarters 24/7/365 so that a response is 100% guaranteed every time the tones drop. You don't want to admit that it chafes your azz that that is the REAL REASON for career personnel is a call volume that is far too high for vollies to handle so they begin to fade away and soon the response is not only inadequate but downright dangerous for the community and the very few vollies that still responded.

    So yes, there are times we are watching tv, or reading, or on the internet, or even sleeping, but that does not change the true reason we are there. We are there because the community wants a guaranteed response in a timely manner so that lives and property have a better chance of being saved. I will not apologize for that, and frankly who gives a crap what you think anyways. How many hours a week do you waste here on line during your daytime shift? If you job is so critical and so vital to the safety of the community how can you justify sitting behind your desk spreading nonsense on the internet? You are a far greater slug on your communities resource because YOU are supposed to be working, not wasting valuable time during that short shift you work. Once again your hypocrisy holds no bounds...
    Never once did I attack firefighter for sleeping on duty as it is part of the position, but I simply stated a fact that most of the public recognizes. The workload of a shift firefighter, when looked at the actual work time v. downtime, in most cases, is much lighter than that of a plumber, carpenter, nurse or any other position that some here wanted to compare themselves to. To expect to be paid the same per hour when in most cases, we have that much downtime, including sleeping time, involved in the position is simply ridiculous.

    If you want to compare saleries and whine that we are underpaid, you have to compare apples v. apples and look at the work produced. Bottom line is unless you are in a very busy company or the department keeps you very busy when not on runs, the actual work produced per hour is far less when compared to occupations that do not offer the downtime in the fire station that we have.

    Being able to sleep and have that downtime is a perk of the job. Call it being available, I really don't care but it is simply unproductive time, and it is a perk that the position offers. But the simple fact is when the public looks at the position, that is what they see, but the fact is that given the actual work time involved in many firefighting positions, most firefighters are fairly well compensated for what we do.

    As far as DC Gonzo's insistence that I mention overpaid department's, I'm not going to but I will say that there are departments and stations in some pretty busy departments in this area that do relatively speaking limited response duty and the personnel are paid fairly well. And I'm sure every every area has such departments and stations.

    As far as your personal attack, it's par for the course.

    As far as the entire topic, I have said what i have needed to say, unless you wish to throw another personal insult into the discussion.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #234
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    As far as DC Gonzo's insistence that I mention overpaid department's, I'm not going to but I will say that there are departments and stations in some pretty busy departments in this area that do relatively speaking limited response duty and the personnel are paid fairly well. And I'm sure every every area has such departments and stations.
    In other words...

    You have nothing.

    To paraphrase your words...
    I will say that there are departments and stations in some pretty busy departments in this area that have personnel that do relatively speaking limited response duty and those personnel are paid fairly well.

    Look in the mirror Bobby.. you described yourself perfectly.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 11-30-2012 at 08:02 AM.
    FWDbuff likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  10. #235
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    In other words...

    You have nothing.

    To paraphrase your words...


    No, I just won't name them.

    There is one combi department that runs no EMS at all, department that has 5 fulltime members per shift and does about 500 calls per year. And they are well paid for it as well as well as the city does stock thier freezers. I guess yiou can call that whatever you wish but the guiys are happioer than crap because they know they have it good.

    I know of another department - in fact we used to do thier transportsat my private gig until they got thier own ambos -that runs out of 2 stations and does about 2 runs per day and almost never turns thier wheels to a fire. In fact I slept the night 90% of the time I was stationed there. Easy gig and probably the second highest paid combo department in thier parish. We have a couple of guys here that work part-time for them and they'll tell you it's the easist job they ever worked.

    To be fair, there are departments where the oppiste is tur. The Captain at my VFD used to work for one where they were very busy and starts at less than 20K without a whole lot in terms of raises down the line.


    Look in the mirror Bobby.. you described yourself perfectly.
    My job isn't the most difficult either nthough it does take somebody commiteed to delivering quality pub ed to do it well. And yes, I may be overpaid.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-30-2012 at 11:24 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #236
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My job isn't the most difficult either nthough it does take somebody commiteed to delivering quality pub ed to do it well. And yes, I may be overpaid.
    Especially if you're making over minimum wage. My daughter wrote better copy than you.

    When she was in the 4th grade. It's obvious communication skills were not part of the job description.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  12. #237
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My job isn't the most difficult either nthough it does take somebody commiteed to delivering quality pub ed to do it well. And yes, I may be overpaid.
    in other words.. you can't hack being on the job and the BPFD put you in a position where you could do the least harm and all you can handle is Pub Ed (by the way... congratulations on finally spelling the abbreviation right, it only took 8 years )

    You are definitely overpaid...
    scfire86 likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  13. #238
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Nothing wrong with a good debate...but when did firefighters become so catty? I've been perusing the forum, and this thread is a good example of the abounding p!$$!ness that many of you will try to characterize as "banter." I can only imagine what this thread would sound like if the posts were actually said aloud (the sound of cackling hens come to mind). Lay off the estrogen gents and disagree without the middle school antics. Jeez!
    Last edited by laddernhook; 11-30-2012 at 01:02 PM.

  14. #239
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    in other words.. you can't hack being on the job and the BPFD put you in a position where you could do the least harm and all you can handle is Pub Ed (by the way... congratulations on finally spelling the abbreviation right, it only took 8 years )

    You are definitely overpaid...
    It's obvious he was a wannabe that ended up a neverwill.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  15. #240
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Laddernhook....

    If you want an insight about why many of us counter LA's posts... do yourself a favor and read through some of his past posts....

    His "viewpoint" is the antithesis of what firefighters are and what the job is. If I were near a bus stop, I wold make damn sure he is nowhere near....
    RyanK63 likes this.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  16. #241
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,579

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by laddernhook View Post
    Nothing wrong with a good debate...but when did firefighters become so catty? I've been perusing the forum, and this thread is a good example of the abounding p!$$!ness that many of you will try to characterize as "banter." I can only imagine what this thread would sound like if the posts were actually said aloud (the sound of cackling hens come to mind). Lay off the estrogen gents and disagree without the middle school antics. Jeez!

    this is a forum. people discuss stuff on forums. unless your wife is holding a gun to your head right now, forcing you to leave her alone for a few hours and learn your profession....f*ck off and go read something else.
    FyredUp, FireMedic049 and rm1524 like this.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  17. #242
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Laddernhook....

    If you want an insight about why many of us counter LA's posts... do yourself a favor and read through some of his past posts....

    His "viewpoint" is the antithesis of what firefighters are and what the job is. If I were near a bus stop, I wold make damn sure he is nowhere near....
    Hey DCG, I don't take issue with your quarrel over LA's viewpoint...by all means express your distaste for his points of view. But after awhile, the debate devolved into an online catfight with everyone trying to throw in the wittiest insult or zinger. The thread is no longer substantive, but instead has become a proxy for name calling and personal put downs.

    Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your passion and understand why LA's comments may have struck a nerve. But to others reading the thread (like me for example), the posts can appear quite catty. And it's not just this thread. I've scoped out a number of threads on this forum and this bickering is what I find not too infrequently. Not a good look...just saying.

    I know there's a tradition in the fire service for being quick witted and sharp tongued. But there's a fine line between being witty & opinionated and beling catty and petty.

  18. #243
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    this is a forum. people discuss stuff on forums. unless your wife is holding a gun to your head right now, forcing you to leave her alone for a few hours and learn your profession....f*ck off and go read something else.
    You're right, I came on here looking for a discussion. Not an online p!$$!ng match. Your comment solidifies my point better than I ever could have. Thanks

  19. #244
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    But there's a fine line between being witty & opinionated and beling catty and petty.
    I beleieve I fall into the witty & opinionated
    category....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  20. #245
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    I beleieve I fall into the witty & opinionated
    category....
    ...Touche'

  21. #246
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,579

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by laddernhook View Post
    You're right, I came on here looking for a discussion. Not an online p!$$!ng match. Your comment solidifies my point better than I ever could have. Thanks
    You were looking for legit discussion. in a thread titled union thuggery. On a firefighting forum.





    Seriously?
    Miller337 and RyanK63 like this.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  22. #247
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as your personal attack, it's par for the course.

    As far as the entire topic, I have said what i have needed to say, unless you wish to throw another personal insult into the discussion.
    Which one was the attack? Calling you out for wasting time online during your 8 hour shift when you have valuable Pub Ed work to do, or calling you the hypocrite that you are? Because both of them are true and even YOU know it.

    We know you have said the same old tired nonsensical crap you always say and if just once you actually would shut up and go away maybe you might redeem yourself. But you will be back, you can't help yourself.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  23. #248
    Forum Member
    snowball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Just North of South Central
    Posts
    2,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by laddernhook View Post
    You're right, I came on here looking for a discussion. Not an online p!$$!ng match. Your comment solidifies my point better than I ever could have. Thanks
    .................................................. ..............................
    Name:  imagesCA8J3B2L.jpg
Views: 176
Size:  9.9 KB
    scfire86 and RyanK63 like this.
    IAFF

  24. #249
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    1,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Call it what you want.

    Shift personnel are paid for their availability while sleeping and relaxing watching TV.

    I worked part-time for a district where I was paid minimum wage from 10PM-6AM unless we went on a run. Obviously that is a rare exception.
    From what you have shown here, I am sure you where overpaid.

  25. #250
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never once did I attack firefighter for sleeping on duty as it is part of the position, but I simply stated a fact that most of the public recognizes.
    You may not view it as an "attack", but your "get paid to sleep" comments sure came across as at minimum, a good jab at career firefighters of this nation.

    Yes, the public often has the perception that we don't do much other than sleep and watch TV at work. The reality is that some of us may be in that situation, but many others are not.

    The workload of a shift firefighter, when looked at the actual work time v. downtime, in most cases, is much lighter than that of a plumber, carpenter, nurse or any other position that some here wanted to compare themselves to. To expect to be paid the same per hour when in most cases, we have that much downtime, including sleeping time, involved in the position is simply ridiculous.
    The difference in work load that you cite may be true in most circumstances, but the comparison to those professions was not about the workloads. The comparison was more about job classification in regards to the "overpaid" comments. You simply can't look at Walmart or food service employees and determine that firefighters are "overpaid" because they comparatively have a better compensation package. The more appropriate comparison for the firefighter occupation is to compare it with other skilled labor occupations like plumber, carpenter or nurse. When you do that, you will typically find that compensation is very comparable and may even lag behind in some aspects.

    I don't think anybody is specifically expecting to be paid the same per hour as those occupations. I think most of us, particularly those of us working in "lower" call volume departments, recognize that our compensation is for the most part reasonable.

    If you want to compare saleries and whine that we are underpaid, you have to compare apples v. apples and look at the work produced. Bottom line is unless you are in a very busy company or the department keeps you very busy when not on runs, the actual work produced per hour is far less when compared to occupations that do not offer the downtime in the fire station that we have.
    I don't recall any whining about being "underpaid".

    Being able to sleep and have that downtime is a perk of the job. Call it being available, I really don't care but it is simply unproductive time, and it is a perk that the position offers. But the simple fact is when the public looks at the position, that is what they see, but the fact is that given the actual work time involved in many firefighting positions, most firefighters are fairly well compensated for what we do.
    Yes, it can be a "perk" of the job. If you look at that time in terms of tangible production of a product or service, then it would not be a reach to view it as "unproductive time". However, if you look at sleep and downtime from a different perspective, the time isn't necessarily as "unproductive" as you and some may think. Given the nature of how we work and the importance of being on top of your game when responding to calls, this time can help to keep personnel more "fresh". The time can also help us recover mentally following a particularly difficult call. It can also be spent on other things with occupation value.

    Personally, I spend a fair bit of my downtime reading trade magazines, content on several fire service websites, NIOSH reports, etc. in order to stay current on industry practices, learn new ways to do things, learn how to operate safer, learn from the experiences of others, etc. I'm sure many other do so also. Many people spend downtime working out or exercising in some fashion since the job requires a certain level of physical fitness. So, the time may not be as tangibly productive as putting out a fire, performing a rescue or handling an EMS call, but not all of it is "unproductive".

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Sutphen...union/non-union built???
    By FIREMECH1 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-06-2010, 09:58 AM
  2. How does your Union do it?
    By QbenOliver in forum Career/Paid Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-26-2007, 01:45 AM
  3. Union Help
    By mopanglow in forum Federal & Military Firehouse Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-13-2006, 03:07 PM
  4. who can be in the union?
    By HeavyRescueTech in forum Career/Paid Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-09-2003, 12:50 PM
  5. Using non union help to build a union firehall
    By firefighthero in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-06-2002, 10:53 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register