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Thread: Union Thuggery in NJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Personally, I spend a fair bit of my downtime reading trade magazines, content on several fire service websites, NIOSH reports, etc. in order to stay current on industry practices, learn new ways to do things, learn how to operate safer, learn from the experiences of others, etc. I'm sure many other do so also. Many people spend downtime working out or exercising in some fashion since the job requires a certain level of physical fitness. So, the time may not be as tangibly productive as putting out a fire, performing a rescue or handling an EMS call, but not all of it is "unproductive".
    LAFE (rhymes with taffy) has no clue what you mean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    I don't want to turn this into a anti-career thread.
    I call BS....you have been doing that from the get go.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I stated quite frankly that we have no need for a union in my department as we have an excellent relationsip with management, and have most if not all of the "benefits" of being unionized without being unionized .We have good wages and benefits, input on development of operational policies, input on budgeting and purchasing and have no issues with disciplinary procedures...
    Could it be the simplistic fact that perhaps the largest FDs in your parish, Bossier City and Shreveport have unions associated with them? Pretty easy to incorporate like minded union issues when you have similar entities nearby.

    This is much like the paper mill my father in law retired from. It was a non-union shop among several other union shop mills. Wages and benefits were comparable for the simplistic reason that the proximity of union shops were there. Face it, you are basically enjoying the efforts of union personnel while your spit your venom.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If you read the section of my post that you quoted you will find the words "my area". I am in northwest LA nowhere near Baton Rouge or New Orleans where the 2 career departments and most of the fire districts, which by the way, for the most part non-union start in the high 20's to mid 30"s plus significant increases if you happen to be a paramedic.

    I have no idea, and really don't care what they pay in BA or NO.

    I do know that New Orleans is not civil service due to the fact that thier population is over the maximum threshold
    , or at least was pre-Katrina. They are now under the threshold, but nobody has made an issue of the fact that they now should be civil service. I believe Baton Rouge is.
    more of what you don't know. New Orleans IS civil service.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack61sgfd View Post
    more of what you don't know. New Orleans IS civil service.
    Your insertion of facts into a conversation otherwise based on assumptions is really going to have a bad affect on this conversation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack61sgfd View Post
    more of what you don't know. New Orleans IS civil service.
    I am not surprised that LAFE (rhymes with taffy) is wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack61sgfd View Post
    more of what you don't know. New Orleans IS civil service.
    My understanding was that they were not.

    I was incorrect. Really doesn't make any difference in my life as to their civil service status.

    I was under the impression that municipal departments covering more than 400,000 and less than 5,000 were exempt. I know the very small city neighboring my combo department is exempt from civil service because they are below the minimum threshold.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-02-2012 at 09:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I am not surprised that LAFE (rhymes with taffy) is wrong.
    Yup. Wrong.

    It's really not something that has any impact on my life so I didn't spend any time researching it when I was told that was the case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jccrabby3084 View Post
    I call BS....you have been doing that from the get go.

    If you say so.

    I have been anti-union from the get go. And I have been anti-some departments that seemingly have held their cities safety hostage for unreasonable benefits, such as one very large northern city, where unions tend to run the joint, where their members get holiday pay whether they work or not and get something called "recall pay" though they are very, very rarely ever recalled.

    I am for firefighters being paid fairly. I am not for benefits that the general public would consider unreasonable, and often with good reason.




    Could it be the simplistic fact that perhaps the largest FDs in your parish, Bossier City and Shreveport have unions associated with them? Pretty easy to incorporate like minded union issues when you have similar entities nearby.

    Shreveport is in Caddo parish, which is about 15 miles west of us.

    Both departments are very different than ours. Up until they hired me 3 years ago, and then hired a second career member per shift last year, we had 4 paid staff. We are still primarily volunteer on the response side with almost 90 volunteer personnel, and likely always will be, or at least for the foreseeable future, primarily volunteer. We tell our career staff that they are there simply to support the volunteer response, and the volunteers are not there to support them.

    Two very different ways of doing business.


    This is much like the paper mill my father in law retired from. It was a non-union shop among several other union shop mills. Wages and benefits were comparable for the simplistic reason that the proximity of union shops were there. Face it, you are basically enjoying the efforts of union personnel while your spit your venom.

    The only reason we are now civil service and utilize the civil service holiday and vacation schedule, hiring system, the mandatory 2% and the civil service promotional process for career staff is because we were ordered by the court to do so after one of our career members were fired (and the firing was upheld) but the court determined that we should have been civil service. Other than that, we would still be using our own holiday/vacation schedule, pay raise schedule, hiring and promotional system.

    The 17% pay raise came about to compete with the non-union neighboring fire districts. We had not lost any members to either city.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Your insertion of facts into a conversation otherwise based on assumptions is really going to have a bad affect on this conversation.
    Again, I had been told that NO was not civil service because they were above the population cutoff for civil service.

    Obviously those folks were wrong and I was wrong.

    Doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

    And given that we are talking primarily about my department, which is 6 hours north of NO, it really has no bearing on that discussion either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup. Wrong.

    It's really not something that has any impact on my life so I didn't spend any time researching it when I was told that was the case.
    Thanks for admitting you make statements when you are ignorant of the facts. We've known that for some time. Especially when it relates to anything fire related.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup. Wrong.

    It's really not something that has any impact on my life so I didn't spend any time researching it when I was told that was the case.
    Thus again PROVING that none of the facts you post can be trusted as valid because you don't check them.

    Thanks for once again proving you lie, fabricate, bs, and spin everything to try and make yourself look good. Too bad you can't just tell the truth or actually supply facts that you can substantiate.

    Nice work making yourself even more irrelevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Thanks for admitting you make statements when you are ignorant of the facts. We've known that for some time. Especially when it relates to anything fire related.
    Yup. Ignorant.

    I guess I have more important things to worry abou than the civil service status and the pay of department 6 hours away.

    The information that I had received - not sought - while involved in a conversation with 3 or 4 other people was wrong.

    Do I look concerned?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Thus again PROVING that none of the facts you post can be trusted as valid because you don't check them.

    Thanks for once again proving you lie, fabricate, bs, and spin everything to try and make yourself look good. Too bad you can't just tell the truth or actually supply facts that you can substantiate.

    Nice work making yourself even more irrelevant.
    That's right. I didn't fact check the civil service status of a department 6 hours south that has zero impact on my life.

    Makes me feel good though that we seem to be making more $$$$ for doing less runs and likely having better working conditions, and we don't even have to pay union dues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The information that I had received - not sought - while involved in a conversation with 3 or 4 other people was wrong.

    Do I look concerned?
    about as concerned as you would if you came across a burning vehicle with a child trapped inside.

    Dayum.....you fell right into that one.
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    Originally posted by LAFE
    I have been anti-union from the get go. And I have been anti-some departments that seemingly have held their cities safety hostage for unreasonable benefits, such as one very large northern city, where unions tend to run the joint, where their members get holiday pay whether they work or not and get something called "recall pay" though they are very, very rarely ever recalled.

    I am for firefighters being paid fairly. I am not for benefits that the general public would consider unreasonable, and often with good reason.
    You get paid for holidays and you stay home, whats the difference? When I go in on Christmas eve and day this year, my pay stays the same. In lieu of that, I and most unions are given "Holiday Hours" that we can burn at our liesure. The pay for me stays the same, the guy covering me, unless he is on relief on that shift, will get OT.

    As far as your baseless comment about "recall pay", that sounds like a total fabrication for effect on your part. You only get recall pay when you are recalled for whatever reason. No city in their right mind is going to bump a fireman's pay on a chance they might be recalled.

    So if we are to believe your theory, when they recall a few guys, do they get "double recall pay"? And what about the ones that don't get recalled? Do they just get "regular recall pay" for not being recalled? Name the department and I will look up their MOU, either that or you are welcome to prove me wrong.

    You really need to educate yourself before spouting off. Your'e already branded as a mutt, now you want to lower yourself to lying mutt?
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    Jack ..

    I believe you are wrong.

    According to the LA Office of the Examiner, New Orleans does not have a Civil Service Board, meaning the department is not civil service.

    Here is the link and the actual list in their website: http://ose.louisiana.gov/jd_select1.asp

    Again it appears the information I had was correct. They are not civil service due to the pre-Katrina population.

    Prove me wrong.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-02-2012 at 05:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    about as concerned as you would if you came across a burning vehicle with a child trapped inside.

    Dayum.....you fell right into that one.

    Personal choices.

    Funny thing is given the same scenario today, even after all the crap, I still would make the same choice.

    So keep bringing it up. I have no issues with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Jack ..

    I believe you are wrong.

    According to the LA Office of the Examiner, New Orleans does not have a Civil Service Board, meaning the department is not civil service.

    Here is the link and the actual list in their website: http://ose.louisiana.gov/jd_select1.asp

    Again it appears the information I had was correct. They are not civil service due to the pre-Katrina population.

    Prove me wrong.
    Here you go.......

    http://www.nola.com/politics/index.s...planned_i.html

    Civil service revamp planned in New Orleans
    Published: Thursday, September 13, 2012, 11:00 PM
    Bruce Eggler, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune By Bruce Eggler, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune

    "Almost from the day he took office in 2010, New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu has talked about his desire to change what he saw as an outdated and inefficient civil service system that made it hard for the city to hire, promote and retain top-quality employees. So far, Landrieu has done little to turn that desire into action, but it appears that is about to change. A recent memo circulated among top officials in Landrieu's administration outlined a plan to present sweeping changes in the city's personnel management system to the city Civil Service Commission next month, with the goal of getting them adopted by November and implemented by the start of 2013."


    It took me less than 5 minutes to find this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post


    It took me less than 5 minutes to find this.
    I was just going to put this up when you ninja'd me...haha!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Here you go.......

    http://www.nola.com/politics/index.s...planned_i.html

    Civil service revamp planned in New Orleans
    Published: Thursday, September 13, 2012, 11:00 PM
    Bruce Eggler, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune By Bruce Eggler, NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune

    "Almost from the day he took office in 2010, New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu has talked about his desire to change what he saw as an outdated and inefficient civil service system that made it hard for the city to hire, promote and retain top-quality employees. So far, Landrieu has done little to turn that desire into action, but it appears that is about to change. A recent memo circulated among top officials in Landrieu's administration outlined a plan to present sweeping changes in the city's personnel management system to the city Civil Service Commission next month, with the goal of getting them adopted by November and implemented by the start of 2013."


    It took me less than 5 minutes to find this.
    It is the CITY's Civil Service Commission.

    Per state law cities over 400,000, which No was pre-Katrina, was not eligable to to be a part of the state civil service system, which is supported by the fact that they are not on the STATE Office of the Examiners, who handles the state's system, list.

    It is in fact possible the city had it's own civil service system since it was not eligible, due to it's population, for the state civil service system.

    In light of the info on the State Office of the Examiner's webpage, we both may in fact be correct.

    In fact, here is the RS Statue from LA law that defines who is eligable for the state civil service system:

    2471. Applicability

    This Part applies to any municipality which operates a regularly
    paid fire and police department and which has a population of not
    less than thirteen thousand nor more than two hundred fifty
    thousand
    according to the latest regular federal census for which the official figures have been made public.

    Under that RS Statue, New Orleans would be ineligible due to population'

    They have the right to set up a city system, which may mirror state civil service laws, but would not fall into the same system as any other department in the state, unless they serve less than 13,000.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-02-2012 at 07:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It may be the CITY's Civil Service Commission.

    Per state law cities over 400,000, which No was pre-Katrina, was not eligable to to be a part of the state civil service system, which is supported by the fact that they are not on the STATE Office of the Examiners, who handles the state's system, list.

    It is in fact possible the city had it's own civil service system since it was not eligible, due to it's population, for the state civil service system.

    In light of the info on the State Office of the Examiner's webpage, we both may in fact be correct.

    In fact, here is the RS Statue from LA law that defines who is eligable for the state civil service system:

    2471. Applicability

    This Part applies to any municipality which operates a regularly
    paid fire and police department and which has a population of not
    less than thirteen thousand nor more than two hundred fifty
    thousand
    according to the latest regular federal census for which the official figures have been made public.

    Under that RS Statue, New Orleans would be ineligible due to population'

    They have the right to set up a city system, which may mirror state civil service laws, but would not fall into the same system as any other department in the state, unless they serve less than 13,000.
    And no matter how you try to cover your azz now you did originally post the information with no research to prove whether you were right or wrong. Just like a ton of other times when you spouted unsubstantiated statistics and so called facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    It may be the CITY's Civil Service Commission.

    Per state law cities over 400,000, which No was pre-Katrina, was not eligable to to be a part of the state civil service system, which is supported by the fact that they are not on the STATE Office of the Examiners, who handles the state's system, list.

    It is in fact possible the city had it's own civil service system since it was not eligible, due to it's population, for the state civil service system.

    In light of the info on the State Office of the Examiner's webpage, we both may in fact be correct.

    In fact, here is the RS Statue from LA law that defines who is eligable for the state civil service system:

    2471. Applicability

    This Part applies to any municipality which operates a regularly
    paid fire and police department and which has a population of not
    less than thirteen thousand nor more than two hundred fifty
    thousand
    according to the latest regular federal census for which the official figures have been made public.

    Under that RS Statue, New Orleans would be ineligible due to population'

    They have the right to set up a city system, which may mirror state civil service laws, but would not fall into the same system as any other department in the state, unless they serve less than 13,000.
    Nice try, but you stated the following in Post #211:

    "I do know that New Orleans is not civil service due to the fact that thier population is over the maximum threshold, or at least was pre-Katrina. They are now under the threshold, but nobody has made an issue of the fact that they now should be civil service. I believe Baton Rouge is."

    You may have been attempting to allude to participation in the "State Civil Service System", but you clearly stated that New Orleans was not "civil service". Civil Service is Civil Service regardless of who is administering the program. So while you may be correct that New Orleans is not participating in the State Civil Service System, you were clearly WRONG that New Orleans isn't Civil Service. Therefore, on the matter of whether or not New Orleans is Civil Service, we were not both correct and YOU were the one that was WRONG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And no matter how you try to cover your azz now you did originally post the information with no research to prove whether you were right or wrong. Just like a ton of other times when you spouted unsubstantiated statistics and so called facts.
    Again, it really wasn't important enough for me to fact check it. Actually still has, zero bearing on my life, especially since thee system they appear to be in applies to the city only, and may have some very different rules than the state system..

    The fact is the folks that I was having the conversation with were in a position to know as both of their departments are in the process of being being forced into civil service status, and had done a tremendous amount of research on civil service. So yes, I took their information as the truth, and lookeeeee lookeeeeee it turned out that it was in fact the case.

    And no, we are not on the list as we are still in the process. We are taking every moment that we can to go civil service as we know it will have consequences on the volunteer/career relationship in our organization.

    And just out of curiosity, give me an example of some those other "unsubstantiated" statistics.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-02-2012 at 07:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Nice try, but you stated the following in Post #211:

    "I do know that New Orleans is not civil service due to the fact that thier population is over the maximum threshold, or at least was pre-Katrina. They are now under the threshold, but nobody has made an issue of the fact that they now should be civil service. I believe Baton Rouge is."

    You may have been attempting to allude to participation in the "State Civil Service System", but you clearly stated that New Orleans was not "civil service". Civil Service is Civil Service regardless of who is administering the program. So while you may be correct that New Orleans is not participating in the State Civil Service System, you were clearly WRONG that New Orleans isn't Civil Service. Therefore, on the matter of whether or not New Orleans is Civil Service, we were not both correct and YOU were the one that was WRONG.
    New Orleans lost significant population post-Katrina. baton Rouge, and to a lesser extent, as well as Houston gained much of that population, so yes, there was a question as to why NO was not forced into the state system when it's population dropped below the maximum post-Katrina.

    Again, did I follow it with a great deal of interest? No, as it has zero affect on my life, and have I have no interest in labor relations, especially when they are 6 hours south of me, but I heard the matter discussed when i was with those that had more interest in the subject. Yup, I was wrong they are civil service, but possibly not under the same rules to which we will, once we fully adopt civil service, along with every other civil service department in the state is subject to.

    We are dealing with the state civil service system in my current situation, and that is the only system in which I have any interest, and frankly, the only system pertinent to the discussion regarding the need for a union in my department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-02-2012 at 07:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup. Ignorant.
    Agreed. No big deal, except for the fact this is not an isolated instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I guess I have more important things to worry abou than the civil service status and the pay of department 6 hours away.
    Ha ha ha. Funny. Keep thinking anyone is going to buy that.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The information that I had received - not sought - while involved in a conversation with 3 or 4 other people was wrong.
    I have no doubt you believe much of what you "hear" regardless of its validity.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Do I look concerned?
    Not relevant.
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