Union Thuggery in NJ

[nyckftbl]

Nothing wrong with a good debate...but when did firefighters become so catty? I've been perusing the forum, and this thread is a good example of the abounding p!$$!ness that many of you will try to characterize as "banter." I can only imagine what this thread would sound like if the posts were actually said aloud (the sound of cackling hens come to mind). Lay off the estrogen gents and disagree without the middle school antics. Jeez!

this is a forum. people discuss stuff on forums. unless your wife is holding a gun to your head right now, forcing you to leave her alone for a few hours and learn your profession....f*ck off and go read something else.

[laddernhook]

Laddernhook....

If you want an insight about why many of us counter LA's posts... do yourself a favor and read through some of his past posts....

His "viewpoint" is the antithesis of what firefighters are and what the job is. If I were near a bus stop, I wold make damn sure he is nowhere near....

Hey DCG, I don't take issue with your quarrel over LA's viewpoint...by all means express your distaste for his points of view. But after awhile, the debate devolved into an online catfight with everyone trying to throw in the wittiest insult or zinger. The thread is no longer substantive, but instead has become a proxy for name calling and personal put downs.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your passion and understand why LA's comments may have struck a nerve. But to others reading the thread (like me for example), the posts can appear quite catty. And it's not just this thread. I've scoped out a number of threads on this forum and this bickering is what I find not too infrequently. Not a good look...just saying.

I know there's a tradition in the fire service for being quick witted and sharp tongued. But there's a fine line between being witty & opinionated and beling catty and petty.

[laddernhook]

this is a forum. people discuss stuff on forums. unless your wife is holding a gun to your head right now, forcing you to leave her alone for a few hours and learn your profession....f*ck off and go read something else.

You're right, I came on here looking for a discussion. Not an online p!$$!ng match. Your comment solidifies my point better than I ever could have. Thanks

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

But there's a fine line between being witty & opinionated and beling catty and petty.

I beleieve I fall into the witty & opinionated
category....

[laddernhook]

I beleieve I fall into the witty & opinionated
category....

...Touche'

[nyckftbl]

You're right, I came on here looking for a discussion. Not an online p!$$!ng match. Your comment solidifies my point better than I ever could have. Thanks

You were looking for legit discussion. in a thread titled union thuggery. On a firefighting forum.





Seriously?

[FyredUp]

As far as your personal attack, it's par for the course.

As far as the entire topic, I have said what i have needed to say, unless you wish to throw another personal insult into the discussion.

Which one was the attack? Calling you out for wasting time online during your 8 hour shift when you have valuable Pub Ed work to do, or calling you the hypocrite that you are? Because both of them are true and even YOU know it.

We know you have said the same old tired nonsensical crap you always say and if just once you actually would shut up and go away maybe you might redeem yourself. But you will be back, you can't help yourself.

[snowball]

You're right, I came on here looking for a discussion. Not an online p!$$!ng match. Your comment solidifies my point better than I ever could have. Thanks

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[rm1524]

Call it what you want.

Shift personnel are paid for their availability while sleeping and relaxing watching TV.

I worked part-time for a district where I was paid minimum wage from 10PM-6AM unless we went on a run. Obviously that is a rare exception.

From what you have shown here, I am sure you where overpaid.

[FireMedic049]

Never once did I attack firefighter for sleeping on duty as it is part of the position, but I simply stated a fact that most of the public recognizes.

You may not view it as an "attack", but your "get paid to sleep" comments sure came across as at minimum, a good jab at career firefighters of this nation.

Yes, the public often has the perception that we don't do much other than sleep and watch TV at work. The reality is that some of us may be in that situation, but many others are not.

The workload of a shift firefighter, when looked at the actual work time v. downtime, in most cases, is much lighter than that of a plumber, carpenter, nurse or any other position that some here wanted to compare themselves to. To expect to be paid the same per hour when in most cases, we have that much downtime, including sleeping time, involved in the position is simply ridiculous.

The difference in work load that you cite may be true in most circumstances, but the comparison to those professions was not about the workloads. The comparison was more about job classification in regards to the "overpaid" comments. You simply can't look at Walmart or food service employees and determine that firefighters are "overpaid" because they comparatively have a better compensation package. The more appropriate comparison for the firefighter occupation is to compare it with other skilled labor occupations like plumber, carpenter or nurse. When you do that, you will typically find that compensation is very comparable and may even lag behind in some aspects.

I don't think anybody is specifically expecting to be paid the same per hour as those occupations. I think most of us, particularly those of us working in "lower" call volume departments, recognize that our compensation is for the most part reasonable.

If you want to compare saleries and whine that we are underpaid, you have to compare apples v. apples and look at the work produced. Bottom line is unless you are in a very busy company or the department keeps you very busy when not on runs, the actual work produced per hour is far less when compared to occupations that do not offer the downtime in the fire station that we have.

I don't recall any whining about being "underpaid".

Being able to sleep and have that downtime is a perk of the job. Call it being available, I really don't care but it is simply unproductive time, and it is a perk that the position offers. But the simple fact is when the public looks at the position, that is what they see, but the fact is that given the actual work time involved in many firefighting positions, most firefighters are fairly well compensated for what we do.

Yes, it can be a "perk" of the job. If you look at that time in terms of tangible production of a product or service, then it would not be a reach to view it as "unproductive time". However, if you look at sleep and downtime from a different perspective, the time isn't necessarily as "unproductive" as you and some may think. Given the nature of how we work and the importance of being on top of your game when responding to calls, this time can help to keep personnel more "fresh". The time can also help us recover mentally following a particularly difficult call. It can also be spent on other things with occupation value.

Personally, I spend a fair bit of my downtime reading trade magazines, content on several fire service websites, NIOSH reports, etc. in order to stay current on industry practices, learn new ways to do things, learn how to operate safer, learn from the experiences of others, etc. I'm sure many other do so also. Many people spend downtime working out or exercising in some fashion since the job requires a certain level of physical fitness. So, the time may not be as tangibly productive as putting out a fire, performing a rescue or handling an EMS call, but not all of it is "unproductive".

[scfire86]

Personally, I spend a fair bit of my downtime reading trade magazines, content on several fire service websites, NIOSH reports, etc. in order to stay current on industry practices, learn new ways to do things, learn how to operate safer, learn from the experiences of others, etc. I'm sure many other do so also. Many people spend downtime working out or exercising in some fashion since the job requires a certain level of physical fitness. So, the time may not be as tangibly productive as putting out a fire, performing a rescue or handling an EMS call, but not all of it is "unproductive".

LAFE (rhymes with taffy) has no clue what you mean.

[jccrabby3084]

I don't want to turn this into a anti-career thread.

I call BS....you have been doing that from the get go.

I stated quite frankly that we have no need for a union in my department as we have an excellent relationsip with management, and have most if not all of the "benefits" of being unionized without being unionized .We have good wages and benefits, input on development of operational policies, input on budgeting and purchasing and have no issues with disciplinary procedures...

Could it be the simplistic fact that perhaps the largest FDs in your parish, Bossier City and Shreveport have unions associated with them? Pretty easy to incorporate like minded union issues when you have similar entities nearby.

This is much like the paper mill my father in law retired from. It was a non-union shop among several other union shop mills. Wages and benefits were comparable for the simplistic reason that the proximity of union shops were there. Face it, you are basically enjoying the efforts of union personnel while your spit your venom.

[jack61sgfd]

If you read the section of my post that you quoted you will find the words "my area". I am in northwest LA nowhere near Baton Rouge or New Orleans where the 2 career departments and most of the fire districts, which by the way, for the most part non-union start in the high 20's to mid 30"s plus significant increases if you happen to be a paramedic.

I have no idea, and really don't care what they pay in BA or NO.

I do know that New Orleans is not civil service due to the fact that thier population is over the maximum threshold

, or at least was pre-Katrina. They are now under the threshold, but nobody has made an issue of the fact that they now should be civil service. I believe Baton Rouge is.

more of what you don't know. New Orleans IS civil service.

[GTRider245]

more of what you don't know. New Orleans IS civil service.

Your insertion of facts into a conversation otherwise based on assumptions is really going to have a bad affect on this conversation.

[scfire86]

more of what you don't know. New Orleans IS civil service.

I am not surprised that LAFE (rhymes with taffy) is wrong.

[LaFireEducator]

more of what you don't know. New Orleans IS civil service.

My understanding was that they were not.

I was incorrect. Really doesn't make any difference in my life as to their civil service status.

I was under the impression that municipal departments covering more than 400,000 and less than 5,000 were exempt. I know the very small city neighboring my combo department is exempt from civil service because they are below the minimum threshold.

[LaFireEducator]

I am not surprised that LAFE (rhymes with taffy) is wrong.

Yup. Wrong.

It's really not something that has any impact on my life so I didn't spend any time researching it when I was told that was the case.

[LaFireEducator]

I call BS....you have been doing that from the get go.

If you say so.

I have been anti-union from the get go. And I have been anti-some departments that seemingly have held their cities safety hostage for unreasonable benefits, such as one very large northern city, where unions tend to run the joint, where their members get holiday pay whether they work or not and get something called "recall pay" though they are very, very rarely ever recalled.

I am for firefighters being paid fairly. I am not for benefits that the general public would consider unreasonable, and often with good reason.



Could it be the simplistic fact that perhaps the largest FDs in your parish, Bossier City and Shreveport have unions associated with them? Pretty easy to incorporate like minded union issues when you have similar entities nearby.

Shreveport is in Caddo parish, which is about 15 miles west of us.

Both departments are very different than ours. Up until they hired me 3 years ago, and then hired a second career member per shift last year, we had 4 paid staff. We are still primarily volunteer on the response side with almost 90 volunteer personnel, and likely always will be, or at least for the foreseeable future, primarily volunteer. We tell our career staff that they are there simply to support the volunteer response, and the volunteers are not there to support them.

Two very different ways of doing business.

This is much like the paper mill my father in law retired from. It was a non-union shop among several other union shop mills. Wages and benefits were comparable for the simplistic reason that the proximity of union shops were there. Face it, you are basically enjoying the efforts of union personnel while your spit your venom.

The only reason we are now civil service and utilize the civil service holiday and vacation schedule, hiring system, the mandatory 2% and the civil service promotional process for career staff is because we were ordered by the court to do so after one of our career members were fired (and the firing was upheld) but the court determined that we should have been civil service. Other than that, we would still be using our own holiday/vacation schedule, pay raise schedule, hiring and promotional system.

The 17% pay raise came about to compete with the non-union neighboring fire districts. We had not lost any members to either city.

[LaFireEducator]

Your insertion of facts into a conversation otherwise based on assumptions is really going to have a bad affect on this conversation.

Again, I had been told that NO was not civil service because they were above the population cutoff for civil service.

Obviously those folks were wrong and I was wrong.

Doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

And given that we are talking primarily about my department, which is 6 hours north of NO, it really has no bearing on that discussion either.

[scfire86]

Yup. Wrong.

It's really not something that has any impact on my life so I didn't spend any time researching it when I was told that was the case.

Thanks for admitting you make statements when you are ignorant of the facts. We've known that for some time. Especially when it relates to anything fire related.