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Thread: Union Thuggery in NJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    I've got a riddle for ya, GT. What union killed Kodak?
    Intresting you should mention Kodak as I recently heard a discussion on this exact subject on NPR. Yes, I do listen to NPR as well as Fox.

    The segment discussed why Kodak failed, and the reason was simple. They failed to look forward and adopt new technologies and instead kept doing what they had always been doing, and by the time they realized that there was no longer a need for thier product because of the new technologies, it was too late to right the ship.

    As far as this subject, yes, this is another example of a union failing to regognize the need to accept reduce wages and benefits and instead holding out, or should I say, demanding, what simply wasn't there. The company made a rational decision to shut down because, in part, of what the union wanted.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-21-2012 at 10:41 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Intresting you should mention Kodak as I recently heard a discussion on this exact subject on NPR. Yes, I do listen to NPR as well as Fox.

    The segment discussed why Kodak failed, and the reason was simple. They failed to look forward and adopt new technologies and instead kept doing what they had always been doing, and by the time they realized that there was no longer a need for thier product because of the new technologies, it was too late to right the ship.

    As far as this subject, yes, this is another example of a union failing to regognize the need to accept reduce wages and benefits and instead holding out, or should I say, demanding, what simply wasn't there. The company made a rational decision to shut down because, in part, of what the union wanted.
    The Unions had already made concessions to keep the company afloat... the executives squandered it and as with Kodak, refused to keep up with consumer demand. They also changed the formula for Wonder Bread, the customers stopped buying it. Add the fact that they gave themselves enormous raises while running the company into the ground makes the "it's the union's fault" argument a lie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    The Unions had already made concessions to keep the company afloat... the executives squandered it and as with Kodak, refused to keep up with consumer demand. They also changed the formula for Wonder Bread, the customers stopped buying it. Add the fact that they gave themselves enormous raises while running the company into the ground makes the "it's the union's fault" argument a lie.
    LAFE continues to prove that he is clueless. Well said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    Yeah man, I am a troll. 7 years and ~3,000 posts just to mask my real reason for being here. Good one.

    I realize that my views on this particular subject won't align with most of the guys in this forum or in the fire service in general.

    I got over that a long time ago.
    No, it isn't as simple as your views don't allign with others here. YOU ARE 100% WRONG ON THIS SUBJECT. There is nothing to get over other than your closed mindedness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    As far as this subject, yes, this is another example of a union failing to regognize the need to accept reduce wages and benefits and instead holding out, or should I say, demanding, what simply wasn't there. The company made a rational decision to shut down because, in part, of what the union wanted.
    You are so totally clueless on this topic that it is beyond your usually idiocy. The Union MADE concessions in the past only to have management vote themselves HUGE raises. Meanwhile, the company stopped paying contracturally required pension contributions to the tune of $160 MILLION. The company had PREVIOUSLY filed for Chapter 11 and FAILED miserably to bring the company back around.

    The fact that through a failed experiment to add preservatives to Wonder Bread, and cut the number of regional bakeries, that changed the texture and taste and almost destroyed that customer base cost them millions, and their failure to early on add a whole wheat or whole grain bread while the rest of the market was capitalizing on the switch to healthier bread spelled the beginning of the end of Hostess. The healthier foods craze totally missed by the Hostess snack foods line was another nail in the coffin. NONE OF THOSE ISSUES CAN BE BLAMED ON THE BAKER"S UNION. Was the strike the final nail? Sort of, it was coming anyways, all this did was hasten the end. The fact is, this made the Union an excellent scape goat for the ridiculously uninformed.
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    This crap will continue as long as there are CEO's with no morals, and a public gullible enough to believe that the unions and not their greed causes corporations to fail. It's the same as the mafia when they busted out a small business, they come in, squander all the poor guys credit, liquidate his assets, then split leaving him to file for bankruptcy.
    Hmm...Bain Capital much?
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    In general, unions are the only thing that stands between what we have now and slave labor in places like china and others. The problem is we have a up hill battle, they can make things so cheap.

    People need to get over these blinders like gay marrage, black, white, unions, ect. Unless you are rich it might not be a good idea to pull the R handle "just because".
    I had a PT not too long ago that was complaining about democrats when he has food stamps, medicaid, and sec 8 housing.

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    Of couse if my back doesn't stop giving me problems i will be on these as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The fact is, this made the Union an excellent scape goat for the ridiculously uninformed.
    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    This crap will continue as long as there are CEO's with no morals, and a public gullible enough to believe that the unions and not their greed causes corporations to fail. It's the same as the mafia when they busted out a small business, they come in, squander all the poor guys credit, liquidate his assets, then split leaving him to file for bankruptcy.
    Hmm...Bain Capital much?
    I think it is safe to say none of us will ever have to worry about booking any trips to Stockholm to watch LAFE pick up any prizes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Intresting you should mention Kodak as I recently heard a discussion on this exact subject on NPR. Yes, I do listen to NPR as well as Fox.

    The segment discussed why Kodak failed, and the reason was simple. They failed to look forward and adopt new technologies and instead kept doing what they had always been doing, and by the time they realized that there was no longer a need for thier product because of the new technologies, it was too late to right the ship.

    As far as this subject, yes, this is another example of a union failing to regognize the need to accept reduce wages and benefits and instead holding out, or should I say, demanding, what simply wasn't there. The company made a rational decision to shut down because, in part, of what the union wanted.

    The answer for Kodak is none, Kodak's management fooled its workers into believing they'd be taken care of (I believe George Eastman was true to this and some of his predecessors, but in recent history not a chance) without unions or collective bargaining. Now workers and retirees are seeing massive cuts in pay and benefits. The point is, Kodak and Hostess are very similar in why they failed. It has little to nothing to do with unions, it has to do with incompetence at the top. The difference is, when Hostess has problems they blame the union. Kodak isn't unionized, so no union to blame. Instead the talking heads talk mostly about how the world changed around Kodak, some place blame on management, but few of been as harsh on management as they would have been on the union. The actions of Kodak's CEO Antonio Perez show why unions are so important, as Kodak is limping along days from death and cutting workers and benefits, Perez has been ensuring he gets paid, other managers get bonuses (apparently those that ran the company into the ground are needed to right the ship, so they get retention bonuses).

    The fact is pay for cooperate mangers has balloned over the past 40 years while the pay for workers has barely kept with inflation. In fact, economists are calling the last 10 years the "lost decade" because worker pay hasn't kept up with inflation. Its as if we're making the same or less than we did 10 years ago. What people fail to realize is until worker pay goes up we'll never get out of this recession, people need to have money to buy goods and services. Without money, their is no buyer, without a buyer, there's no need for that product or service, without a need for a product/service there's no need for the workers who make or provide that product.


    P.S. the ironic thing is Kodak researchers invented the digital camera.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You are so totally clueless on this topic that it is beyond your usually idiocy. The Union MADE concessions in the past only to have management vote themselves HUGE raises. Meanwhile, the company stopped paying contracturally required pension contributions to the tune of $160 MILLION. The company had PREVIOUSLY filed for Chapter 11 and FAILED miserably to bring the company back around.

    The fact that through a failed experiment to add preservatives to Wonder Bread, and cut the number of regional bakeries, that changed the texture and taste and almost destroyed that customer base cost them millions, and their failure to early on add a whole wheat or whole grain bread while the rest of the market was capitalizing on the switch to healthier bread spelled the beginning of the end of Hostess. The healthier foods craze totally missed by the Hostess snack foods line was another nail in the coffin. NONE OF THOSE ISSUES CAN BE BLAMED ON THE BAKER"S UNION. Was the strike the final nail? Sort of, it was coming anyways, all this did was hasten the end. The fact is, this made the Union an excellent scape goat for the ridiculously uninformed.
    Never did i say that the unions were responsible for the overall failure of the company. I did state that the unions demand for higher wages in the face of the fact that the company stated that they would close if they continued to make that demand was in part responsible for the current situation.

    Yes, the Hostess management brought much of this on itself, but in the end, the union demands were the last straw.

    And yes, I have as much use for unions as I do for a case of the clap. I wake up every morning thankful that the majority of our small career staff at my combo FD has no desire to have a unionized work force.
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    Just for those of you complaining about how much $$ the management at Hostess makes ............



    Here’s a list of the annual salaries and benefits earned by the nation’s top labor officials, according to the Labor Department. This data is based on 2011 filings:

    AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka – $293,750.

    National Education Association President Dennis Van Roekel – $460,060

    Service Employees International Union President Mary Kay Henry – $290,334.

    American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees President Gerald McEntee – $512,489.

    International Brotherhood of Teamsters President James P. Hoffa , Jr. – $372,489.

    American Federation of Teachers President Randi Weingarten – $493,859.

    International Association of Fire Fighters President Harold Schaitberger – $323,811.

    American Federation of Government Employees President John Gage – $198,690. (Gage retired this month)

    United Food and Commercial Workers President Joseph Hansen – $361,124


    And I'm sure that in many cases, the president's themselves have an awful lot to do with how much they are paid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never did i say that the unions were responsible for the overall failure of the company. I did state that the unions demand for higher wages in the face of the fact that the company stated that they would close if they continued to make that demand was in part responsible for the current situation.

    Yes, the Hostess management brought much of this on itself, but in the end, the union demands were the last straw.

    And yes, I have as much use for unions as I do for a case of the clap. I wake up every morning thankful that the majority of our small career staff at my combo FD has no desire to have a unionized work force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And yes, I have as much use for unions as I do for a case of the clap. I wake up every morning thankful that the majority of our small career staff at my combo FD has no desire to have a unionized work force.
    And unions are very happy someone as stupid as you is not part of their membership.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Just for those of you complaining about how much $$ the management at Hostess makes ............



    Here’s a list of the annual salaries and benefits earned by the nation’s top labor officials, according to the Labor Department. This data is based on 2011 filings:

    AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka – $293,750.

    National Education Association President Dennis Van Roekel – $460,060

    Service Employees International Union President Mary Kay Henry – $290,334.

    American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees President Gerald McEntee – $512,489.

    International Brotherhood of Teamsters President James P. Hoffa , Jr. – $372,489.

    American Federation of Teachers President Randi Weingarten – $493,859.

    International Association of Fire Fighters President Harold Schaitberger – $323,811.

    American Federation of Government Employees President John Gage – $198,690. (Gage retired this month)

    United Food and Commercial Workers President Joseph Hansen – $361,124


    And I'm sure that in many cases, the president's themselves have an awful lot to do with how much they are paid.
    This is one of those times where I get to laugh out loud. When one considers the responsibilities these individuals have compared to private business, they are woefully underpaid by comparison. I'm sure compared to the hayseeds like yourself in Bossier Parish these individuals make a lot of money. I can assure you, it is not.

    Years ago one of my fellow captains wrote a firefighter review for an individual that was less than dim. His comment on his appraisal:

    "This individual has set low expectations and has failed to achieve them."

    Describes you perfectly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This is one of those times where I get to laugh out loud. When one considers the responsibilities these individuals have compared to private business, they are woefully underpaid by comparison. I'm sure compared to the hayseeds like yourself in Bossier Parish these individuals make a lot of money. I can assure you, it is not.

    Years ago one of my fellow captains wrote a firefighter review for an individual that was less than dim. His comment on his appraisal:

    "This individual has set low expectations and has failed to achieve them."

    Describes you perfectly.
    Honestly.

    You really believe that there is less responsibility associated with running a multi-billion dollar company with a fudicary responsibility to the shareholders to make a profit and turn back to them a dividend then there is in running a union?

    Sorry, but the responsibilities are far greater in a private sector corporation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Honestly.

    You really believe that there is less responsibility associated with running a multi-billion dollar company with a fudicary responsibility to the shareholders to make a profit and turn back to them a dividend then there is in running a union?

    Sorry, but the responsibilities are far greater in a private sector corporation.
    Given the recent examples of executives being paid hundreds of millions of dollars while their corporations were losing billions, I would say yes. Especially given that union leadership can be replaced by the vote of their membership and sent packing with nothing.

    You once again show your stupidity. Thanks.

    Just curious. Were you born this dense? Or was it an effort to achieve that level of being completely clueless?
    Last edited by scfire86; 11-22-2012 at 11:56 AM.
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    Not only did the Hostess execs get huge raises while running the company off the cliff, they probably also have golden parachutes that will give them even money they don't deserve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Not only did the Hostess execs get huge raises while running the company off the cliff, they probably also have golden parachutes that will give them even money they don't deserve.
    I'm sure the village idiot (aka LAFE) will justify that act as being part of the burden enjoyed by corporate leadership.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Not only did the Hostess execs get huge raises while running the company off the cliff, they probably also have golden parachutes that will give them even money they don't deserve.
    Last report I heard was that a Federal Judge (may be wrong on this) was not allowing the bankruptcy to go through just yet, because he believes that Hostess can survive this.

    So now the CEO's will become "experts" and be paid huge consulting fees to "fix" the corporation that they grenaded themselves. Capitalism at it's finest!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Not only did the Hostess execs get huge raises while running the company off the cliff, they probably also have golden parachutes that will give them even money they don't deserve.
    The HUGE raises are even more despicable when you realize they came AFTER the first round of concessions made by Union employees of Hostess, AND after the first Chapter 11 filing.

    The problem with hard right winger anti-Union people like LA is they only read the part of the story that proves their point, they do no actual research on the entire story because that might prove them wrong. The right wing agenda is more important than the truth and that is pathetic.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 11-22-2012 at 06:02 PM.
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    LaFireEducator and his backwoods views do not represent the rest of the fire service in Louisiana.
    I will gladly donate the first $100 to move your mobile home to Mississippi.
    Have a nice day!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never did i say that the unions were responsible for the overall failure of the company. I did state that the unions demand for higher wages in the face of the fact that the company stated that they would close if they continued to make that demand was in part responsible for the current situation.

    Explain the HUGE raises for management in a company floundering on the edge of bankruptcy...

    Yes, the Hostess management brought much of this on itself, but in the end, the union demands were the last straw.

    I never denied that the Union's refusal to take it deep in the azz again was the last nail in the coffin. Your inability to see that HUGE raises for management while not paying the contracturally required contributions to the pension plan and asking for a SECOND round of concessions from the Union shows what a narrow minded buffoon you are.

    And yes, I have as much use for unions as I do for a case of the clap. I wake up every morning thankful that the majority of our small career staff at my combo FD has no desire to have a unionized work force.

    Frankly, no Union would want you. You are the kind of guy that would p i s s and moan about every decision the exec board made, loudly proclaim how worthless they are, and then when your *** was in a bind scream that the Union HAS to protect you. No thanks, I'd rather you stay an ignorant, uninformed Union hater that have to call you a Union Brother.
    By the way, very classy comment on a Holiday to celebrate being Thankful for what we have. I hope it leaves a crappy tatse in your mouth while you sit there stuffing your face.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The HUGE raises are even more dispicable when you realize they came AFTER the first round of concessions made by Union employees of Hostess, AND after the first Chapter 11 filing.
    I'm beginning to believe he is a medical experiment gone awry. Some medico decided to test the limits of stupid pills dosage not realizing the effects would be irreversible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Frankly, no Union would want you. You are the kind of guy that would p i s s and moan about every decision the exec board made, loudly proclaim how worthless they are, and then when your *** was in a bind scream that the Union HAS to protect you. No thanks, I'd rather you stay an ignorant, uninformed Union hater that have to call you a Union Brother.
    No kidding. I would always be amazed at how the biggest union bashers would hide behind their employee rep. They claimed others should take responsibility but always ensured they never entered a disciplinary hearing alone.
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