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Thread: Union Thuggery in NJ

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    One of the reasons the company is going down the tubes is the work rules that didn't allow Twinkies and Wonderbread to be carried in the same truck.

    Further, a driver could not unload a truck. So a second employee had to ride along to take care of that.

    Neither could move the product from the loading dock (or whatever) to the shelf - that required a third employee (who travels in another vehicle).

    Putting that in a fire department context, a driver couldn't operate the pump - that would require another member. And neither the driver nor the pump operator could make the hydrant. Someone else would have to do that. And that doesn't address the firefighters actually taking a line into the burning building (who can't drive, pump, or make the hydrant).
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    One of the reasons the company is going down the tubes is the work rules that didn't allow Twinkies and Wonderbread to be carried in the same truck.

    Further, a driver could not unload a truck. So a second employee had to ride along to take care of that.

    Neither could move the product from the loading dock (or whatever) to the shelf - that required a third employee (who travels in another vehicle).

    Putting that in a fire department context, a driver couldn't operate the pump - that would require another member. And neither the driver nor the pump operator could make the hydrant. Someone else would have to do that. And that doesn't address the firefighters actually taking a line into the burning building (who can't drive, pump, or make the hydrant).
    Okay, I am calling a HUGE BS on this. My parents owned a grocery store in Illinois and then one in Wisconsin and I can tell you staraight up both Hostess and Wonder Bread delivered to their businesses were delivered by a single route delivery driver for each product. They took out the stales, decided what was coming in the store, stocked the shelves and dropped off the bill on the way out. Not 3 different guys like you are saying...
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    I found the separate truck article. It is part of the propaganda shoveled by these chuckleheads... http://ohioansforworkplacefreedom.co...d-wonderbread/

    They are taking donations. So if you have any spare change that those damn unions haven't taken, they will gladly take it.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Honestly.

    You really believe that there is less responsibility associated with running a multi-billion dollar company with a fudicary responsibility to the shareholders to make a profit and turn back to them a dividend then there is in running a union?

    Sorry, but the responsibilities are far greater in a private sector corporation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnjack View Post
    LaFireEducator and his backwoods views do not represent the rest of the fire service in Louisiana.
    I will gladly donate the first $100 to move your mobile home to Mississippi.
    Have a nice day!
    Never said I did.

    However in this area, most of the departments/districts are not unionized and those that are not have little desire to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never did i say that the unions were responsible for the overall failure of the company. I did state that the unions demand for higher wages in the face of the fact that the company stated that they would close if they continued to make that demand was in part responsible for the current situation.

    Explain the HUGE raises for management in a company floundering on the edge of bankruptcy...

    I don't have to. that was obviously a decision made by the board of Directors.


    Yes, the Hostess management brought much of this on itself, but in the end, the union demands were the last straw.

    I never denied that the Union's refusal to take it deep in the azz again was the last nail in the coffin. Your inability to see that HUGE raises for management while not paying the contracturally required contributions to the pension plan and asking for a SECOND round of concessions from the Union shows what a narrow minded buffoon you are.

    Not being a union guy I have little knowledge of that crap nor quite honestly, do I care very much about it. If the money is owed, it should be paid into the fund by the company. As far as the raises, obviously the Board of Directors felt they were justified.

    And yes, I have as much use for unions as I do for a case of the clap. I wake up every morning thankful that the majority of our small career staff at my combo FD has no desire to have a unionized work force.

    Frankly, no Union would want you. You are the kind of guy that would p i s s and moan about every decision the exec board made, loudly proclaim how worthless they are, and then when your *** was in a bind scream that the Union HAS to protect you. No thanks, I'd rather you stay an ignorant, uninformed Union hater that have to call you a Union Brother.+6+23.

    Funny thing is that I believe that my work should dictate my salary, not collective bargaining, and that if I should screw up, I should face the music alone without a union rep and a union lawyer standing behind me.

    Sorry but unions have no place in my life. if, for some reason a union is ever voted in at my combo department I will likely quit, as in our situation, it will only cause problems between us and our Chief as well as with the volunteers.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never said I did.

    However in this area, most of the departments/districts are not unionized and those that are not have little desire to be.
    because you are an expert of all the intimate details of those departments....YEAH RIGHT!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Funny thing is that I believe that my work should dictate my salary, not collective bargaining, and that if I should screw up, I should face the music alone without a union rep and a union lawyer standing behind me.

    Sorry but unions have no place in my life. if, for some reason a union is ever voted in at my combo department I will likely quit, as in our situation, it will only cause problems between us and our Chief as well as with the volunteers.
    Methinks you doth protest too much. It's obvious your desire to enjoy the benefits afforded via collective bargaining has escaped you and you justify by saying you're not interested. Sorta like the Jim Carrey character on In Living Color. Dickie Peterson: Cherub of Justice

    Only a complete moron would make a statement like yours. Step raises and promotions are not automatic. They must be earned by the individual via the merit and promotional process. Even in a union organized environment. But of course it's a given you're too stupid to know that.
    I'm just hoping if your stupidity is genetic, you haven't bred.

    Run along Bobby. You've once again been shown that you are clueless on another topic.
    Last edited by scfire86; 11-22-2012 at 11:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    because you are an expert of all the intimate details of those departments....YEAH RIGHT!
    No, but I do know which ones are unionized.

    In this parish as well as the neighboring parish there are two large city departments and 13 combination fire districts. of those, only the 2 city departments and 2 of the fire districts are unionized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Methinks you doth protest too much. It's obvious your desire to enjoy the benefits afforded via collective bargaining has escaped you and you justify by saying you're not interested. Sorta like the Jim Carrey character on In Living Color. Dickie Peterson: Cherub of Justice

    Only a complete moron would make a statement like yours. Step raises and promotions are not automatic. They must be earned by the individual via the merit and promotional process. Even in a union organized environment. But of course it's a given you're too stupid to know that.
    I'm just hoping if your stupidity is genetic, you haven't bred.

    Run along Bobby. You've once again been shown that you are clueless on another topic.
    Under LA state law, the following are set forth:
    Holiday pay schedule
    Vacation step schedule
    Minimum 2% per year pay increases
    Minimum rank pay differentals
    Department level civil service board and appeals process

    And on our department, we are also given certification incentives ranging from $500 to $3600 per year and generally a yearly raise beyond the required 2%. In fact, 2 years ago we were given a 15% (plus the annual 2%) pay increase.

    We have no need for a union.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Under LA state law, the following are set forth:
    Holiday pay schedule
    Vacation step schedule
    Minimum 2% per year pay increases
    Minimum rank pay differentals
    Department level civil service board and appeals process
    None of which are step raises or promotions. BTW, any company worth their salt has all the items you mentioned as part of their compensation policy. You truly do lack the sense God gave a lemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And on our department, we are also given certification incentives ranging from $500 to $3600 per year and generally a yearly raise beyond the required 2%. In fact, 2 years ago we were given a 15% (plus the annual 2%) pay increase.
    Your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have no need for a union.
    True. Don't think for a minute the surrounding unionized organizations are not taken into consideration when your managers determine compensation. They (unlike you) are smart enough to realize that keeping pace with union wages and benefits is the best way to keep their workforce from organizing. My old department's managers weren't that bright.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have no need for a union.
    Lets ask your career guys about that- you know, the ones that are told "it would help your career if you were to come in off-duty for fires and not get paid for it" as you have told us on here in the past.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Lets ask your career guys about that- you know, the ones that are told "it would help your career if you were to come in off-duty for fires and not get paid for it" as you have told us on here in the past.
    Go ahead. Ask them.

    One of our career members recently floated the idea bout becoming unionized. He had one other career member sorta in his camp.

    The other 5, myself included, opposed the idea.

    With the exception of that one member, there are no issues responding in off-duty as volunteers among the career staff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Lets ask your career guys about that- you know, the ones that are told "it would help your career if you were to come in off-duty for fires and not get paid for it" as you have told us on here in the past.
    You mean the ones told that they should volunteer off-duty and disregard that it's a violation of federal law? Those guys?

    Oh, sure. No need for a union there... A union might keep the town honest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Go ahead. Ask them.

    One of our career members recently floated the idea bout becoming unionized. He had one other career member sorta in his camp.

    The other 5, myself included, opposed the idea.

    With the exception of that one member, there are no issues responding in off-duty as volunteers among the career staff.
    So you're saying that out of a total of seven, only two can see what is really going on, and only one had the cajones to speak up about it? How much influence did you have over the decision to drop it?
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    So you're saying that out of a total of seven, only two can see what is really going on, and only one had the cajones to speak up about it? How much influence did you have over the decision to drop it?
    Those are the key words: only one would speak up. I wonder what would happen if they were polled behind closed doors without Booby or his disciples within earshot, or by secret ballot........
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    Why is it such a hard concept for people to believe in what LA says about his department?

    Its not your area. They aren't your guys. it's really quite possible that people in other parts of the country feel differently than you guys.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Those are the key words: only one would speak up. I wonder what would happen if they were polled behind closed doors without Booby or his disciples within earshot, or by secret ballot........
    Actually the discussion was quite open. Everybody expressed an opinion and the overall opinion was that there was no need for a union given the current situation.

    The fact is we generally have very good working relationship with the Chief Officers. As an example, just this year we expressed that the uniform allowance needed to be increased, and after we demonstrated why, the department upped it by $100.

    As I stated. last year we received a 17% raise which made us competitive with the both of the areas fulltime departments.

    Believe it or not there are departments out there that does not need the nonsense and bull**** that a union brings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    So you're saying that out of a total of seven, only two can see what is really going on, and only one had the cajones to speak up about it? How much influence did you have over the decision to drop it?
    So what is really going on?

    Yearly pay raises beyond that required by law. New certification incentives added yearly. A 17% raise last year. Increased out-of-town training opportunities. Significant officer input into the budget process.

    Yup. It's a great place to work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Go ahead. Ask them.

    One of our career members recently floated the idea bout becoming unionized. He had one other career member sorta in his camp.

    The other 5, myself included, opposed the idea.

    With the exception of that one member, there are no issues responding in off-duty as volunteers among the career staff.
    It is obvious I am no huge pro union guy, but even I know this is not right. Whether they mind it or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Why is it such a hard concept for people to believe in what LA says about his department?

    Its not your area. They aren't your guys. it's really quite possible that people in other parts of the country feel differently than you guys.
    This could very well be the case. I agree. Though given our source, I'm sure there is more to the story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup. It's a great place to work.
    Of course it is!!!! As long as they keep coming in "as volunteers" off-duty for no pay. You've said it before in so many words- that "their career behooves that they come in off-duty for no pay"
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    It is obvious I am no huge pro union guy, but even I know this is not right. Whether they mind it or not.
    What's not right?

    Problems are generally solved by walking into the DC's office and talking with him without the need of a union rep or any other bullcrap.

    Raises are given out by a civil service schedule and generally exceed the civil service minimum scheduled raise.

    Issues such as increased uniform allowances are dealt with directly between the members and the chief officers.

    The fact is that the majority of the career staff does not see the need for a union because pay and benefits is on track with the other fire districts and there is significant staff involvement in decisions that affect us.

    There is simply no need for a union in our situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Of course it is!!!! As long as they keep coming in "as volunteers" off-duty for no pay. You've said it before in so many words- that "their career behooves that they come in off-duty for no pay"
    There is no requirement for any career member to respond off-duty. They do it because they feel an obligation to the members.

    There are no department level consequences.

    personally, if somebody stopped responding in off-duty, personally I would have no need for them and likely I would do the absolute minimum required by the requirements of my job description for them while on the clock. I would lose complete respect for them.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 11-23-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There is no requirement for any career member to respond off-duty. They do it because they feel an obligation to the members.

    There are no department level consequences.

    personally, if somebody stopped responding in off-duty, personally I would have no need for them and likely I would do the absolute minimum required by the requirements of my job description for them while on the clock. I would lose complete respect for them.
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