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Thread: Union Thuggery in NJ

  1. #101
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Do you have to work hard at being a delta india charlie kilo hotel echo alpha delta, or does it come naturally?
    It has to come naturally, if he had to work at it he wouldn't put forth the effort.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    It has to come naturally, if he had to work at it he wouldn't put forth the effort.
    Ya, since you know me so well, you must be right.

    So much for the Kambaya, eh?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There is no requirement for any career member to respond off-duty. They do it because they feel an obligation to the members.

    There are no department level consequences.

    personally, if somebody stopped responding in off-duty, personally I would have no need for them and likely I would do the absolute minimum required by the requirements of my job description for them while on the clock. I would lose complete respect for them.
    Well, at least we know where your claims of professionalism and commitment to serve your community end.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    `
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Well, at least we know where your claims of professionalism and commitment to serve your community end.
    Never said I wouldn't do my job. Very little of my job actually has to do with interaction with the career line personnel. They handle most of the day to day maintenance and testing functions without my assistance, and with our volunteer base being so active, I make very few responses.

    Did say that that extra above and beyond I would do for a brother may not happen. Brotherhood is a two-way street.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  5. #105
    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    `

    Never said I wouldn't do my job. Very little of my job actually has to do with interaction with the career line personnel. They handle most of the day to day maintenance and testing functions without my assistance, and with our volunteer base being so active, I make very few responses.

    Did say that that extra above and beyond I would do for a brother may not happen. Brotherhood is a two-way street.
    So if a guy chooses not to respond on his off day, that makes him less of a brother in your eyes? God forbid the guy have a second job, or a family or a social life.

    Out of 120 career personnel a handful of us used to respond off duty to major fires. It was appreciated, but not required or expected. After a while they started telling us not to come, since they truely should have been paying us. After a while of that they decided we could show up, check with the BC and if we were needed go to work and make sure to get paid for the time. Those of us who were responding already just saw this as a plus. We would have come for free anyway.

    But I never looked down on the guys who had a life away from the fire department for 2/3 of their life. That is just insane, and in face the exact opposite of brotherhood.
    Career Firefighter
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    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There is no requirement for any career member to respond off-duty. They do it because they feel an obligation to the members.
    There may be no "official" requirement, but this statement sounds like there is certainly an "unofficial" expectation for them to respond.

    There are no department level consequences.
    Maybe not department sanctioned consequences, but if others feel the same way as you state below, it certainly seems as though there would be department level consequences.

    personally, if somebody stopped responding in off-duty, personally I would have no need for them and likely I would do the absolute minimum required by the requirements of my job description for them while on the clock. I would lose complete respect for them.
    Wow! With a friend like you, who needs enemies.

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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Ya, since you know me so well, you must be right.

    So much for the Kambaya, eh?
    Well, since you are being an uninformed Union basher kumbaya went bye bye.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  8. #108
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    `

    Never said I wouldn't do my job. Very little of my job actually has to do with interaction with the career line personnel. They handle most of the day to day maintenance and testing functions without my assistance, and with our volunteer base being so active, I make very few responses.

    Did say that that extra above and beyond I would do for a brother may not happen. Brotherhood is a two-way street.
    You wouldn't know true Brotherhood if it came up and kicked you right in your cahoneys.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Under LA state law, the following are set forth:
    Holiday pay schedule
    Vacation step schedule
    Minimum 2% per year pay increases
    Minimum rank pay differentals
    Department level civil service board and appeals process

    And on our department, we are also given certification incentives ranging from $500 to $3600 per year and generally a yearly raise beyond the required 2%. In fact, 2 years ago we were given a 15% (plus the annual 2%) pay increase.
    You do realize that unionization is about more than just compensation.

    While it's true that better compensation tends to be a benefit of being a unionized worker, it's only one of the benefits.

    Unionization can also provide for a uniform disciplinary process and greatly reduce disparity in that due to favoritism. It can also give the employees a real voice in safety related matters and work rules among other things.

  10. #110
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never said I wouldn't do my job. Very little of my job actually has to do with interaction with the career line personnel. They handle most of the day to day maintenance and testing functions without my assistance, and with our volunteer base being so active, I make very few responses.

    Did say that that extra above and beyond I would do for a brother may not happen. Brotherhood is a two-way street.
    Something tells me your not making responses works out best for all parties concerned.
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  11. #111
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    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Never said I wouldn't do my job. Very little of my job actually has to do with interaction with the career line personnel. They handle most of the day to day maintenance and testing functions without my assistance, and with our volunteer base being so active, I make very few responses.
    So you make few responses, yet expect everyone else to?
    Hypocrisy at its finest....
    FWDbuff likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    You do realize that unionization is about more than just compensation.

    While it's true that better compensation tends to be a benefit of being a unionized worker, it's only one of the benefits.

    Unionization can also provide for a uniform disciplinary process and greatly reduce disparity in that due to favoritism. It can also give the employees a real voice in safety related matters and work rules among other things.
    "...nonsense and bull**** that a union brings.." As LA sees it. He admits to not knowing much about how unions work, yet he has no problem jacking his jaw negatively toward them.
    Great explanation, too bad it's wasted on that 1/4 wit.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    So you make few responses, yet expect everyone else to?
    Hypocrisy at its finest....
    I make very few responses while on the clock.

    My primary role is public education, training and admin functions, not response. My response is generally limited to reported structure fires, major MVAs, major brush fires, EMS calls when the suppression staff and volunteers are tied up on other runs and other significant responses, all of which represent a very small part of our overall calls.

    As far as response when not on the clock, if available i will respond to EMS calls in the vicinity of my home (or if i am out) and most fires.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    "...nonsense and bull**** that a union brings.." As LA sees it. He admits to not knowing much about how unions work, yet he has no problem jacking his jaw negatively toward them.
    Great explanation, too bad it's wasted on that 1/4 wit.
    I see enough of the negatives in the area departments that have unions, and see no need for what they bring to the table for us.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I see enough of the negatives in the area departments that have unions, and see no need for what they bring to the table for us.
    You have no knowledge of the positives, how can you identify any negatives. I joined in on the lynch mob because of your insulting comments about my union that I'm a proud member of, along with many others here. You are constantly painting yourself a target because of your ignorance, and your insistence when proven wrong.

    Your lack of respect for the job, your subordinates, the public you allegedly serve, and the unfortunates you may happen upon out of your district, pales in comparison to your lack of knowledge of the lifestyle one accepts when they join this fraternity of brothers. You have pretty much galvanized that in this thread alone.
    IAFF

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    So if a guy chooses not to respond on his off day, that makes him less of a brother in your eyes? God forbid the guy have a second job, or a family or a social life.

    Out of 120 career personnel a handful of us used to respond off duty to major fires. It was appreciated, but not required or expected. After a while they started telling us not to come, since they truely should have been paying us. After a while of that they decided we could show up, check with the BC and if we were needed go to work and make sure to get paid for the time. Those of us who were responding already just saw this as a plus. We would have come for free anyway.

    But I never looked down on the guys who had a life away from the fire department for 2/3 of their life. That is just insane, and in face the exact opposite of brotherhood.
    wtf do you know about brotherhood? change the f*cking thread title. Anyone that would use that negative connotation in this forum is no better than LA and his anti union BS.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    You have no knowledge of the positives, how can you identify any negatives. I joined in on the lynch mob because of your insulting comments about my union that I'm a proud member of, along with many others here. You are constantly painting yourself a target because of your ignorance, and your insistence when proven wrong.

    Your lack of respect for the job, your subordinates, the public you allegedly serve, and the unfortunates you may happen upon out of your district, pales in comparison to your lack of knowledge of the lifestyle one accepts when they join this fraternity of brothers. You have pretty much galvanized that in this thread alone.
    I'm sorry but i have no use for unions in general, and the concept of collective bargaining overall. The idea that I could work twice as hard in my job and some slug who does 1/2 of what i do because of collective bargaining repulses me. i guess i believe in individual merit and individual accomplishment, with the rewards based on that as compared to a collective contract.

    My father was a supervisor with the state and saw this firsthand. There were those that used the union as a shield to cover their laziness and sloppy work. there were those that skated through doing the minimum while others, being paid the same, did their jobs properly and correctly with no additional reward or compensation.

    Unions at one point had a role. That point has passed.

    As far as your union, which i assume is the IAFF, I have no use for that either based on thier past and current perception of volunteers, which are, and always will be the backbone of the US fire service. Some say that their position has changed, and in regards to rural volunteers, maybe it has, but I have seen no significant change in regards to union members volunteering in combination departments with an IAFF local or in suburban areas where volunteer departments with the funds available to hire career members but choose to remain all-volunteer are still viewed by many in the unions as "rival organizations".

    As far as the lifestyle that you claim I have chosen not to accept, I disagree.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #118
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm sorry but i have no use for unions in general, and the concept of collective bargaining overall. The idea that I could work twice as hard in my job and some slug who does 1/2 of what i do because of collective bargaining repulses me. i guess i believe in individual merit and individual accomplishment, with the rewards based on that as compared to a collective contract.

    Compensation is actually a small part of collective bargaining and the fact that you believe it is everything shows what a complete ignorant buffoon you are on this topic.

    My father was a supervisor with the state and saw this firsthand. There were those that used the union as a shield to cover their laziness and sloppy work. there were those that skated through doing the minimum while others, being paid the same, did their jobs properly and correctly with no additional reward or compensation.

    It appears your father was too lazy, or uniformed, about how to do his job. IF a supervisor, manager, or officer in a fire department, documents violations or failure to perform in the proper manner that documentation can be used for discipline all the way up to termination. The problem with most disciplinary action taken by management is they fail to follow the proper procedure and they get slammed for that. Funny how laziness and incompetence of employees is unacceptable but that same laziness and incompetence by managers that causes them to fail is blamed on the Union.

    Unions at one point had a role. That point has passed.

    Really? So if Unions faded away and your management said no more vacations, no more sick days, no more overtime, no more health care and no more retirement, you would be okay with that? I am just sitting here laughing at your naivete. You get what you get BECAUSE of the influence of local Unions, to keep you from Unionizing they give you the equialent of Union benefits and pay. So even though you aren't in the Union you are reaping the benefits.

    As far as your union, which i assume is the IAFF, I have no use for that either based on thier past and current perception of volunteers, which are, and always will be the backbone of the US fire service. Some say that their position has changed, and in regards to rural volunteers, maybe it has, but I have seen no significant change in regards to union members volunteering in combination departments with an IAFF local or in suburban areas where volunteer departments with the funds available to hire career members but choose to remain all-volunteer are still viewed by many in the unions as "rival organizations".

    Funny thing, I am a POC FF/essentially a volly FF, in 2 FDs outside of my career FD, you know what my Union has said? I have been told by a few of my executive boards members that they would PREFER I not volunteer, others have said nothing at all about it. BUT, I have NEVER been threatened with any kind of action by my Union.

    The thing that vollies forget to say when they say they are a majority of firefighters in this country is that while that is true, it is only half the story. Career FDs cover the majority of the population by a HUGE number, and a much higher assessed value in property.

    The funniest thing about this rivalry YOU want to keep alive is that for every career guy you can find ripping vollies I can find just as many, if not more, vollies, some right here on these forums and other forums that love to stir up the paid vs volly battle.


    As far as the lifestyle that you claim I have chosen not to accept, I disagree.

    You have no idea about the lifestyle. Anyone that would proudly proclaim ratting out a Brother, without first directly talking to them and working on the problem, could pass by a car on fire with victims trapped and not stop, who believes that subtly forcing career firefighters to volunteer bck when off duty, and then would shun those that refuse to, has no idea what the lifestyle is. Let alone what it means to be a Brother.
    Dude seriously, all th strides ou made in that other topic are erased by your mindless right wing drivel here. You admit you have no personal Union experience but have no trouble ponding them here. Ignorance is not a good foundation to stand on in any debate.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 11-24-2012 at 01:13 PM.
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  19. #119
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as your union, which i assume is the IAFF, I have no use for that either based on thier past and current perception of volunteers, which are, and always will be the backbone of the US fire service.
    As was pointed out, the majority of the US population is protected by professionals. You continue to show your bias based on ignorance.

    Nothing new. Your stupidity reveals itself most when you believe you are pontificating something intelligent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I see enough of the negatives in the area departments that have unions, and see no need for what they bring to the table for us.
    What exactly would those "negatives" be?

    Do you realize that if those departments are IAFF Locals, then the "Union" you have issue with are the firefighters of that department and not some 3rd party executive. The IAFF itself has little to do with the day to day operations of its Locals and only gets involved with a local level issue when that Local asks for assistance.

    For example, my Local's current contract was exclusively negotiated by our executive officers, all of which are active duty firefighters in the department. The only involvement the IAFF had was assisting us with some financial data analysis in preparation for negotiations.

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