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Thread: Union Thuggery in NJ

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    This also happens in many non-union workplaces and individual merit and accomplishment are not always rewarded by the employer.

    True, but IMO the union is not an answer for that. If you don't like your situation and you are not being rewarded, leave and find another job. There are plenty of places out there that do reward employees.
    You familiar with the saying "the grass isn't always greener in the next pasture"?

    As was already pointed out, if workers aren't doing their job properly and their supervisors allow that to continue to happen, then that's not the union's fault. Many union workers have been disciplined and/or discharged when the employer had just cause and did their due diligence on the matter.

    And here's a surprise. there are places where it's almost impossible to do that, and the state where my father worked was one of those places. The hoops and documentation required was enormous, and the union had significant power, and everybody knew it.

    Funny thing is that here in this part of LA with the civil service system it's the same way. The vast majority of the suspensions and disciplinary actions regarding fire and police that come before their civil service boards are overturned and members reinstated. When I say vast I'm talking over 90%,
    Being "almost impossible" is not the same thing as being "impossible". If the employee was that much of a problem, then management would jump thru those hoops.

    If over 90% of the disciplinary action going before the civil service board is being overturned, then that says to me that management isn't doing their job properly.


    That point is not even close to being reached. As long as their are employers and employees, there will always be a role for unions.

    Disagree. There are now more than enough laws and agencies that protect worker rights.
    And that only covers part of what a union is for.

    You would be correct that there has been no change in position regarding IAFF members volunteering in combination departments in which an IAFF Local exists. I'm not specifically aware of any issue with volunteering in communities that could afford career staff so I would agree that there hasn't been a significant change in position on that. VFDs are not viewed as "rival organizations" simply because they are VFDs. Any that have been designated as such, have been because they were engaging in conduct that negatively impacted a Local. As far as I know, there's never really been an issue with members volunteering in the small rural departments.

    Guess what. Wrong.
    Guess what? I get a nice chuckle out of people like you who know nothing about my Union telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding it.

    Just before I left Vermont, the IAFF local got the city to prohibit their members from volunteering. The reason was simple - and this came directly from the mouth of one of the local union leaders - was to reduce the number of members on the surrounding volunteer departments so that they would be in a position where they would have to hire career personnel.

    It didn't work.
    While this may be true, it was at best the position of that one Local and not specifically reflective of the IAFF in general.

    Just this winter I was talking to some volunteers outside of a meduim sized city in NY (my home). I asked about the city guys volunteering and they told me it just didn't happen because it wasn't allowed by the local.

    So please don't tell me that the local, or the union, doesn't have issues with suburban volunteer departments that surround the cities.

    And while there are no rules here regarding career members from the 2 city departments volunteering, it is highly discouraged.
    I guess that you can't comprehend that the Local not wanting their members volunteering may actually have nothing to do with having "issues with suburban volunteer departments". Besides, discouraging your membership from volunteering does not automatic equate to actually having issues with volunteer departments and/or their firefighters.

    The IAFF is so worried about its members volunteering that it leaves enforcement of that rule up to the discretion of its Locals rather than handling it themself.

    Maybe in the end it is up to the locals, but please don't try to tell me that overall the union is anti-volunteer. They are coming to the realization that in the rural areas, career members simply won't happen, but they do target suburban volunteer departments with the money to potentially hire career staff.
    I won't even attempt to tell you that "the union is anti-volunteer", because I know that it is not "anti-volunteer". You should probably proof-read your posts better.

    Please provide verifiable proof that the IAFF is targeting "suburban volunteer departments with the money to potentially hire career staff".

    Your ignorance is astounding, but if you want to be that guy shouting at the wind, have at it.

    If you want to call me ignorant about where the IAFF sees fire protection in this country, fine, but I have talked to enough strongly pro-union guys and have seen the union is action enough to know that they really aren't concerned about fire protection. They are simply concerned about more jobs.
    I call you ignorant because that's exactly what you are regarding the IAFF.

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    You say the IAFF's only concern is about jobs. They are also concerned about the safety of those who do the job with the intent of making a difference. Showing up and looking at a fire burn a house down or watching someone get incinerated in a car is not doing the job.

    They are concerned about the safety of the minority of the firefighters who happen to be career and happen to be union.
    Damn right they are! But guess what, they are also concerned with the safety of ALL firefighters too and there's plenty of evidence to prove it.

    They have no concern for volunteers.
    The reality is that the volunteers really aren't their "concern". Why would they be expected to be concerned with the issues of non-members? You are mistaking member advocacy (essentially the primary role of a union) for contempt of non-members.

    When they tell union members that they cannot volunteer at combo department, they are decreasing the safety of thier union members who work there for the primary purpose of pressuring that department to hire more career personnel rather than using volunteers. That also affects the safety of the public at large as there are fewer responders than there could be.
    The primary purpose is not to pressure those departments into hiring more career personnel as you assert. The primary purpose is to not have fellow union members engaging in activity that can negatively impact the union members working for that department.

    When the locals makes rules against career members volunteering in thier off time, they decrease the safety of volunteers by limiting the pool and decrease the safety of the public by limiting responders.

    That sounds like an organization that is concerned about safety on thier own terms and only if it boosts union membership.
    What's wrong with wanting "safety" on your own terms? The IAFF's concerns regarding safety is not merely about boosting membership. Any increase in membership that results from safety initiatives is simply a bonus. However, if you've been paying attention to the industry the past couple of years you'd know that there's been a lot of firefighter jobs (aka union members) being cut across the nation, but the IAFF's safety work is still going strong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    The reality is that the volunteers really aren't their "concern". Why would they be expected to be concerned with the issues of non-members? You are mistaking member advocacy (essentially the primary role of a union) for contempt of non-members.
    This is a very good point. LAFE (rhymes with taffy) demands the IAFF be concerned with those not supporting them. Yet sees no reason to support why volunteers should be concerned with the issues that affect professional firefighters.

    I would wager his tune would change dramatically if a volunteer group of seniors came forth to the city and proposed volunteers take over his non-essential job for free.
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    Bottom line is that my contemt for any union has zero affect on what happens in the worrld, yet is seems to get more than a few folks rilled up on here.

    If a union should ever come uop for a vote here, I will lobby with my fellow firefighters against it and vote against it. If it pases, there is a strong liklihood I would quit unless I am very close to the point where I would be vested in the retirement system.

    If you don't like my reasons, so be it, but in the long run, my feelings for the union really have no affect on anyone else or the state of the union as a whole.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Bottom line is that my contemt for any union has zero affect on what happens in the worrld, yet is seems to get more than a few folks rilled up on here.

    If a union should ever come uop for a vote here, I will lobby with my fellow firefighters against it and vote against it. If it pases, there is a strong liklihood I would quit unless I am very close to the point where I would be vested in the retirement system.

    If you don't like my reasons, so be it, but in the long run, my feelings for the union really have no affect on anyone else or the state of the union as a whole.
    The bottom line is that you embrace the very prejudices you claim are exhibited by those you dislike.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Bottom line is that my contemt for any union has zero affect on what happens in the worrld, yet is seems to get more than a few folks rilled up on here.

    If a union should ever come uop for a vote here, I will lobby with my fellow firefighters against it and vote against it. If it pases, there is a strong liklihood I would quit unless I am very close to the point where I would be vested in the retirement system.

    If you don't like my reasons, so be it, but in the long run, my feelings for the union really have no affect on anyone else or the state of the union as a whole.
    You would no more quit if the Union came in than you turned down your gravy train Pub Ed job. You see LA, you are all talk and bluster until it somehow makes your situation better. You ranted and raved about the paid guys on your FD until YOU became one. Your job is SO important, and you are so busy, that you find time every day to be here pontificating on topics you have absolutely no direct knowledge of.

    By the way, I am still waiting for you to respond to the fact that your Dad didn't follow work rules and then whined about his inability to discipline people. Funny how you completely dodged that...Says tons about your ignorance of Unions and once again your hypocrisy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You would no more quit if the Union came in than you turned down your gravy train Pub Ed job. You see LA, you are all talk and bluster until it somehow makes your situation better.
    Exactamundo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The bottom line is that you embrace the very prejudices you claim are exhibited by those you dislike.
    You call my anti-union feelings prejudices. I call them facts.

    Unions are destroying companys with outlandish demands as well as this country.

    There is simply no need for a union at my combo department, and given the likely progression in leadership, i see no reason in the forseeable future as such.

    We are garunteed raises and promotional procedures by law. We have input on wage and benefit increases such as uniform allowances and certification incentive pay schedules. And we have a tremendous amount of inputat the Cap[tain and Senior Firefighter levels on SOPs, policies and procedures and equipment/apparatus purchases.

    There simply is no need for the interference of a union, and I stated, the majority of the career staff feel the same way.

    As far as the IAFF, I have seen thier anti-union feelings and efforts at the local level. You can say all you want that is the the locals, but it's still the union. Sorry, but I have no need and very little respect for the IAFF and what it stands for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You call my anti-union feelings prejudices. i call them facts.
    Call them what you want. It doesn't change the validity of my statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Unions are destroying this country.
    Really? Can you point to one conservative policy from the last 30 years that has benefitted the middle class MORE than the upper 1% or corporate interests. What is obvious to those of us who have actually followed American history is that America was strongest when it had a vibrant middle class. Since we have seen conservatives wage open class warfare on organized labor we have seen a diminishing membership in labor with an accompanied squeezing of the middle class out of existence. The consequence being that America in general has suffered.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There is simply no need for a union at my combo department, and given the likely progression in leadership, i see no reason in the forseeable future as such.
    Things change. People change.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We are garunteed raises and promotional procedures by law. We have input on wage and benefit increases such as uniform allowances and certification incentive pay schedules. And we have a tremendous amount of inputat the Cap[tain and Senior Firefighter levels on SOPs, policies and procedures and equipment/apparatus purchases.
    And your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There simply is no need for the interference of a union, and I stated, the majority of the career staff feel the same way.
    Things change, people change.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as the IAFF, I have seen thier anti-union feelings and efforts at the local level. You can say all you want that is the the locals, but it's still the union. Sorry, but I have no need and very little respect for the IAFF and what it stands for.
    And I've seen vollies like you who want all the glamor of being a firefighter but certainly have no interest in doing the job or look for ways to avoid doing the job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You would no more quit if the Union came in than you turned down your gravy train Pub Ed job. You see LA, you are all talk and bluster until it somehow makes your situation better. You ranted and raved about the paid guys on your FD until YOU became one. Your job is SO important, and you are so busy, that you find time every day to be here pontificating on topics you have absolutely no direct knowledge of.

    Where exactly did I rant and rave about the paid guys until I became one? Paid members on this department have thier place. They are needed to perform daily admin, testing and maiantainence functions that the volunteers do not have the time for. That being said, our response is primarily a volunteer, not a career response, and the paid guys are in all reality, not needed fopr responses as the volunteer personnel could easily handle that. If ghat's ranting and raving, so be it.

    By the way, I am still waiting for you to respond to the fact that your Dad didn't follow work rules and then whined about his inability to discipline people. Funny how you completely dodged that...Says tons about your ignorance of Unions and once again your hypocrisy.
    My father did do his job when the situation required. that being said, in almost all cases the employees retained thier positions. That was generally the case with any supervisor that attempted to have employees fired. The union was able to enact rules and requirements that made it almost impossible.

    Sorta like civil service currently is here in LA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You call my anti-union feelings prejudices. I call them facts.

    Facts about the Union? You wouldn't know facts regarding the IAFF if they bit you on your PAID GUY azz. Here's a fact for you, you FD pays what they pay, and gives the benefits they do fully aware of what the Union gets neighboring departments. So in order to prevent you from Unionizing they pay a close equivalent. So even though you aren't Union you reap the benefits of the Union. Whether you care to admit it or not.

    Unions are destroying companys with outlandish demands as well as this country.

    It couldn't be management that awards themseleves outlandish raises and golden parachutes as the businesses they supposedly manage fall into bankruptcy and those jobs are lost forever.

    There is simply no need for a union at my combo department, and given the likely progression in leadership, i see no reason in the forseeable future as such.

    Of couse not since you ride the wave of nearby Unions and their pay and benefits.

    We are garunteed raises and promotional procedures by law. We have input on wage and benefit increases such as uniform allowances and certification incentive pay schedules. And we have a tremendous amount of inputat the Cap[tain and Senior Firefighter levels on SOPs, policies and procedures and equipment/apparatus purchases.

    WOW!! Guaranteed raises despite the work ethic of the employees. You must throw up a little in your mouth everytime you cash a paycheck knowing that.

    There simply is no need for the interference of a union, and I stated, the majority of the career staff feel the same way.

    Again because you ride on the coat tails of nearby Union FDs. I would sure like to talk to those guys with out your self proclaimed "Ratting Guys Out" self being there. I wouldn't say much in front of you either...

    As far as the IAFF, I have seen thier anti-union feelings and efforts at the local level. You can say all you want that is the the locals, but it's still the union. Sorry, but I have no need and very little respect for the IAFF and what it stands for.

    And I have no need and NO respect for people that ride the wave of all the benefits that Unions have fought for and won over their history and then crap all over Unions. Sorry LA you sound more ignorant on this topic every time you post. Further whether you believe it or not many IAFF locals do not stop their members from volunteering, UNLESS it meets the criteria of a competing agency and simply beng a volunteer fire department does NOT meet that criteria, no matter how much you wish to believe it does.
    Still waiting for an answer on your Dad's failure to follow work rules in dsciplining subordinates and gettinghis azz handed to him over that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My father did do his job when the situation required. that being said, in almost all cases the employees retained thier positions. That was generally the case with any supervisor that attempted to have employees fired. The union was able to enact rules and requirements that made it almost impossible.

    Sorta like civil service currently is here in LA.
    Unionized employees can be terminated... I can think of 2 on the PD in my community and 2 from my FD that were terminated.

    All of the T's have to be crossed and the I's dotted in order to do it properly. If they are not, then it is the management that comes out of the situation with egg all over their faces.

    If your father argued his points the same way you do... let's just say the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Unionized employees can be terminated... I can think of 2 on the PD in my community and 2 from my FD that were terminated.

    All of the T's have to be crossed and the I's dotted in order to do it properly. If they are not, then it is the management that comes out of the situation with egg all over their faces.

    If your father argued his points the same way you do... let's just say the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
    That's it folks, the knock out punch has been delivered...Only a punch drunk old fighter would try to get back up after that solid blow to the head by the Chief!!
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    Ya, not IAFF, but I have a feeling not too many people here have ever dealt with NJEA. That is a union that leaves a bad taste in many mouths.

    Cost and rules of union labor in Atlantic City was major factor in FDIC cancelling their conferences there.

    I'm neutral here....I see places where unions are beneficial....I see places where unions are the issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I'm neutral here....I see places where unions are beneficial....I see places where unions are the issue.
    Just like some employers treat their employees well and reduce the need for unionization and others are the poster child for why unions were created and are still necessary.

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    Well.. since Bobby hates the IAFF so much... and he perceives that career firefighters don't care about call and volunteer firefighters... I guess he won't be using this PowerPoint presentation of vehicle safety put together with DHS/FEMA...

    https://www.iaff.org/hs/evsp/home.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Well.. since Bobby hates the IAFF so much... and he perceives that career firefighters don't care about call and volunteer firefighters... I guess he won't be using this PowerPoint presentation of vehicle safety put together with DHS/FEMA...

    https://www.iaff.org/hs/evsp/home.html
    Probably not.
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    Reading your answer just pegged the meter...

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    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Reading your answer just pegged the meter...
    One can't help but admire the ease with which he weaves the rope used to hang him. A remarkable talent.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    One can't help but admire the ease with which he weaves the rope used to hang him. A remarkable talent.


    Between the fabrications, lies, misconceptions, and absolute BS made up stories at least the rope will be a strong 4 strand rope.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You call my anti-union feelings prejudices. I call them facts.
    While I have no doubt that you believe them to be facts, the fact is just believing something to be a fact doesn't make it one.

    Unions are destroying companys with outlandish demands as well as this country.
    Please provide proof of this.

    There is simply no need for a union at my combo department, and given the likely progression in leadership, i see no reason in the forseeable future as such.

    We are garunteed raises and promotional procedures by law. We have input on wage and benefit increases such as uniform allowances and certification incentive pay schedules. And we have a tremendous amount of inputat the Cap[tain and Senior Firefighter levels on SOPs, policies and procedures and equipment/apparatus purchases.
    That's great that you have a work environment like that, but not everybody's in that situation.

    There simply is no need for the interference of a union, and I stated, the majority of the career staff feel the same way.
    Do you realize that if you guys did go IAFF, the union guys that would be "interfering" would be the very same guys providing "input" now.

    As far as the IAFF, I have seen thier anti-union feelings and efforts at the local level.
    Yes, the IAFF is very anti-union.

    Proof read much?

    You can say all you want that is the the locals, but it's still the union. Sorry, but I have no need and very little respect for the IAFF and what it stands for.
    The IAFF stands for..........

    .....safe working conditions,
    .....proper staffing and responses to incidents,
    .....adequate training for the types of calls you have or could have,
    .....having the necessary equipment for the types of calls you have or could have,
    .....disciplinary process that is fair and equitable (i.e no favoritism),
    .....accountability for our employers (i.e. Mayors, City Managers, Council Members, etc.) and the decisions that they make regarding public safety.

    Just a few examples for you.

    Sorry to hear that you have no need or respect for these things and won't be standing by our side on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    While I have no doubt that you believe them to be facts, the fact is just believing something to be a fact doesn't make it one.

    Please provide proof of this.

    That's great that you have a work environment like that, but not everybody's in that situation.

    Do you realize that if you guys did go IAFF, the union guys that would be "interfering" would be the very same guys providing "input" now.



    Yes, the IAFF is very anti-union.

    Proof read much?



    The IAFF stands for..........

    .....safe working conditions,
    .....proper staffing and responses to incidents,
    .....adequate training for the types of calls you have or could have,
    .....having the necessary equipment for the types of calls you have or could have,
    .....disciplinary process that is fair and equitable (i.e no favoritism),
    .....accountability for our employers (i.e. Mayors, City Managers, Council Members, etc.) and the decisions that they make regarding public safety.

    Just a few examples for you.

    Sorry to hear that you have no need or respect for these things and won't be standing by our side on them.
    discipline that is fair and does not allow favoritism- you know, the kind that is extended to the career staff that is encouraged to show up and work for free off-duty.........
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Reading your answer just pegged the meter...

    Attachment 22545
    Why is that?

    I have a couple of driving programs that I use already, and I like them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why is that?

    I have a couple of driving programs that I use already, and I like them.
    Do those including stopping at green lights?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Do those including stopping at green lights?


    It certainly includes reducing speed at all green lights , and at times, slowing down significantlty at green lights at intersections in your district with a history of vehicles running the red, as well as coming to a full and complete stop at all red lights.

    There is no shame in taking your time to get to an incident.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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