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Thread: Union Thuggery in NJ

  1. #141
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I responded to that if you read the post.

    Given that there are plenty of VFDs that perform interior operations on a regular basis, I would call the Chief uninformed.
    You never responded to me you responded to firemedic...so try again.
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  2. #142
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, using what seemed to be a poorly run volunteer component of your past department as an example, I would be concerned about that as well.

    However, there are thousands of VFDs across the country where members do show up and do the job on a regular basis.

    My combo department averages 12-14 volunteers during the day and about 20 at night for a reported structure fire. We can average almost that many for a significant brush fire or MVA. Sorry, but you lose.

    While my VFD has far fewer members, our members average about a 34% response rate, which is quite acceptable.
    Blah blah blah. All we have is your word for it. Which is not worth the bandwidth it consumes.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    They are concerned about the safety of the minority of the firefighters who happen to be career and happen to be union.

    They have no concern for volunteers.

    When they tell union members that they cannot volunteer at combo department, they are decreasing the safety of thier union members who work there for the primary purpose of pressuring that department to hire more career personnel rather than using volunteers. That also affects the safety of the public at large as there are fewer responders than there could be.

    When the locals makes rules against career members volunteering in thier off time, they decrease the safety of volunteers by limiting the pool and decrease the safety of the public by limiting responders.

    That sounds like an organization that is concerned about safety on thier own terms and only if it boosts union membership.
    And the volunteers benefit from the safety procedures that are researched by the IAFF without paying for them. So basically you are praising a group that freeloads on the coattails of others. I'm not surprised you find this practice admirable.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    Really. I think a few might.
    Doubtful. You've yet to prove your activity has prevented one fire.

    Run along. I'm sure there are forums for faux firefighters like you who will be in rapt attention at the nonsense you spout. Those of us who did the job realize you're pretty worthless and have yet to offer anything of value to the conversation. Sadly, the taxpayers that foot the bill for your "expertise" have no idea a fraud is being funded by them.
    Last edited by scfire86; 11-25-2012 at 04:41 PM.
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  3. #143
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Nice.

    So all volunteers are yardbreathers?

    That statement, by itself, tells me a lot about what you seem to think about volunteers as a whole.
    That was aimed at you... God, you are obtuse....

    I know plenty of volunteer and call firefighters that do the job the right way.. not the bastardized version you push.
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 11-25-2012 at 05:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    That was aimed at you... God, you are obtuse....

    I know plenty of volunteer and call firefighters that do the job the right way.. not the bastardized version you push.
    Insults are the weapons of those who have nothing meaningful to say in a debate.
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  5. #145
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Insults are the weapons of those who have nothing meaningful to say in a debate.
    How soon you forget that you were the one poking a sharp stick through the fence of an entire institution, you just forgot to make sure the gate was closed.
    IAFF

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    How soon you forget that you were the one poking a sharp stick through the fence of an entire institution, you just forgot to make sure the gate was closed.
    Well I have some very strong anti-union feelings, and they are especially strong against the IAFF.

    I would rather quit my job than work for a unionized fire department, especially a small combi department such as ours.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #147
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well I have some very strong anti-union feelings, and they are especially strong against the IAFF.
    I have some rather strong anti-volunteer feelings and they are especially strong against volunteers like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I would rather quit my job than work for a unionized fire department, especially a small combi department such as ours.
    I bet there are a lot of folks who wish you would quit now.
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  8. #148
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Insults are the weapons of those who have nothing meaningful to say in a debate.
    The truth insults you?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #149
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Insults are the weapons of those who have nothing meaningful to say in a debate.
    In your case it's stupidity and ignorance.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  10. #150
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    So LA, I guess you can't refute the truth about your dad not knowing how to do his job as a supervisor so you won't respond to me about it.
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  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    This also happens in many non-union workplaces and individual merit and accomplishment are not always rewarded by the employer.

    True, but IMO the union is not an answer for that. If you don't like your situation and you are not being rewarded, leave and find another job. There are plenty of places out there that do reward employees.
    You familiar with the saying "the grass isn't always greener in the next pasture"?

    As was already pointed out, if workers aren't doing their job properly and their supervisors allow that to continue to happen, then that's not the union's fault. Many union workers have been disciplined and/or discharged when the employer had just cause and did their due diligence on the matter.

    And here's a surprise. there are places where it's almost impossible to do that, and the state where my father worked was one of those places. The hoops and documentation required was enormous, and the union had significant power, and everybody knew it.

    Funny thing is that here in this part of LA with the civil service system it's the same way. The vast majority of the suspensions and disciplinary actions regarding fire and police that come before their civil service boards are overturned and members reinstated. When I say vast I'm talking over 90%,
    Being "almost impossible" is not the same thing as being "impossible". If the employee was that much of a problem, then management would jump thru those hoops.

    If over 90% of the disciplinary action going before the civil service board is being overturned, then that says to me that management isn't doing their job properly.


    That point is not even close to being reached. As long as their are employers and employees, there will always be a role for unions.

    Disagree. There are now more than enough laws and agencies that protect worker rights.
    And that only covers part of what a union is for.

    You would be correct that there has been no change in position regarding IAFF members volunteering in combination departments in which an IAFF Local exists. I'm not specifically aware of any issue with volunteering in communities that could afford career staff so I would agree that there hasn't been a significant change in position on that. VFDs are not viewed as "rival organizations" simply because they are VFDs. Any that have been designated as such, have been because they were engaging in conduct that negatively impacted a Local. As far as I know, there's never really been an issue with members volunteering in the small rural departments.

    Guess what. Wrong.
    Guess what? I get a nice chuckle out of people like you who know nothing about my Union telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about regarding it.

    Just before I left Vermont, the IAFF local got the city to prohibit their members from volunteering. The reason was simple - and this came directly from the mouth of one of the local union leaders - was to reduce the number of members on the surrounding volunteer departments so that they would be in a position where they would have to hire career personnel.

    It didn't work.
    While this may be true, it was at best the position of that one Local and not specifically reflective of the IAFF in general.

    Just this winter I was talking to some volunteers outside of a meduim sized city in NY (my home). I asked about the city guys volunteering and they told me it just didn't happen because it wasn't allowed by the local.

    So please don't tell me that the local, or the union, doesn't have issues with suburban volunteer departments that surround the cities.

    And while there are no rules here regarding career members from the 2 city departments volunteering, it is highly discouraged.
    I guess that you can't comprehend that the Local not wanting their members volunteering may actually have nothing to do with having "issues with suburban volunteer departments". Besides, discouraging your membership from volunteering does not automatic equate to actually having issues with volunteer departments and/or their firefighters.

    The IAFF is so worried about its members volunteering that it leaves enforcement of that rule up to the discretion of its Locals rather than handling it themself.

    Maybe in the end it is up to the locals, but please don't try to tell me that overall the union is anti-volunteer. They are coming to the realization that in the rural areas, career members simply won't happen, but they do target suburban volunteer departments with the money to potentially hire career staff.
    I won't even attempt to tell you that "the union is anti-volunteer", because I know that it is not "anti-volunteer". You should probably proof-read your posts better.

    Please provide verifiable proof that the IAFF is targeting "suburban volunteer departments with the money to potentially hire career staff".

    Your ignorance is astounding, but if you want to be that guy shouting at the wind, have at it.

    If you want to call me ignorant about where the IAFF sees fire protection in this country, fine, but I have talked to enough strongly pro-union guys and have seen the union is action enough to know that they really aren't concerned about fire protection. They are simply concerned about more jobs.
    I call you ignorant because that's exactly what you are regarding the IAFF.

  12. #152
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    You say the IAFF's only concern is about jobs. They are also concerned about the safety of those who do the job with the intent of making a difference. Showing up and looking at a fire burn a house down or watching someone get incinerated in a car is not doing the job.

    They are concerned about the safety of the minority of the firefighters who happen to be career and happen to be union.
    Damn right they are! But guess what, they are also concerned with the safety of ALL firefighters too and there's plenty of evidence to prove it.

    They have no concern for volunteers.
    The reality is that the volunteers really aren't their "concern". Why would they be expected to be concerned with the issues of non-members? You are mistaking member advocacy (essentially the primary role of a union) for contempt of non-members.

    When they tell union members that they cannot volunteer at combo department, they are decreasing the safety of thier union members who work there for the primary purpose of pressuring that department to hire more career personnel rather than using volunteers. That also affects the safety of the public at large as there are fewer responders than there could be.
    The primary purpose is not to pressure those departments into hiring more career personnel as you assert. The primary purpose is to not have fellow union members engaging in activity that can negatively impact the union members working for that department.

    When the locals makes rules against career members volunteering in thier off time, they decrease the safety of volunteers by limiting the pool and decrease the safety of the public by limiting responders.

    That sounds like an organization that is concerned about safety on thier own terms and only if it boosts union membership.
    What's wrong with wanting "safety" on your own terms? The IAFF's concerns regarding safety is not merely about boosting membership. Any increase in membership that results from safety initiatives is simply a bonus. However, if you've been paying attention to the industry the past couple of years you'd know that there's been a lot of firefighter jobs (aka union members) being cut across the nation, but the IAFF's safety work is still going strong.

  13. #153
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    The reality is that the volunteers really aren't their "concern". Why would they be expected to be concerned with the issues of non-members? You are mistaking member advocacy (essentially the primary role of a union) for contempt of non-members.
    This is a very good point. LAFE (rhymes with taffy) demands the IAFF be concerned with those not supporting them. Yet sees no reason to support why volunteers should be concerned with the issues that affect professional firefighters.

    I would wager his tune would change dramatically if a volunteer group of seniors came forth to the city and proposed volunteers take over his non-essential job for free.
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    Bottom line is that my contemt for any union has zero affect on what happens in the worrld, yet is seems to get more than a few folks rilled up on here.

    If a union should ever come uop for a vote here, I will lobby with my fellow firefighters against it and vote against it. If it pases, there is a strong liklihood I would quit unless I am very close to the point where I would be vested in the retirement system.

    If you don't like my reasons, so be it, but in the long run, my feelings for the union really have no affect on anyone else or the state of the union as a whole.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #155
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Bottom line is that my contemt for any union has zero affect on what happens in the worrld, yet is seems to get more than a few folks rilled up on here.

    If a union should ever come uop for a vote here, I will lobby with my fellow firefighters against it and vote against it. If it pases, there is a strong liklihood I would quit unless I am very close to the point where I would be vested in the retirement system.

    If you don't like my reasons, so be it, but in the long run, my feelings for the union really have no affect on anyone else or the state of the union as a whole.
    The bottom line is that you embrace the very prejudices you claim are exhibited by those you dislike.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  16. #156
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Bottom line is that my contemt for any union has zero affect on what happens in the worrld, yet is seems to get more than a few folks rilled up on here.

    If a union should ever come uop for a vote here, I will lobby with my fellow firefighters against it and vote against it. If it pases, there is a strong liklihood I would quit unless I am very close to the point where I would be vested in the retirement system.

    If you don't like my reasons, so be it, but in the long run, my feelings for the union really have no affect on anyone else or the state of the union as a whole.
    You would no more quit if the Union came in than you turned down your gravy train Pub Ed job. You see LA, you are all talk and bluster until it somehow makes your situation better. You ranted and raved about the paid guys on your FD until YOU became one. Your job is SO important, and you are so busy, that you find time every day to be here pontificating on topics you have absolutely no direct knowledge of.

    By the way, I am still waiting for you to respond to the fact that your Dad didn't follow work rules and then whined about his inability to discipline people. Funny how you completely dodged that...Says tons about your ignorance of Unions and once again your hypocrisy.
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  17. #157
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You would no more quit if the Union came in than you turned down your gravy train Pub Ed job. You see LA, you are all talk and bluster until it somehow makes your situation better.
    Exactamundo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    The bottom line is that you embrace the very prejudices you claim are exhibited by those you dislike.
    You call my anti-union feelings prejudices. I call them facts.

    Unions are destroying companys with outlandish demands as well as this country.

    There is simply no need for a union at my combo department, and given the likely progression in leadership, i see no reason in the forseeable future as such.

    We are garunteed raises and promotional procedures by law. We have input on wage and benefit increases such as uniform allowances and certification incentive pay schedules. And we have a tremendous amount of inputat the Cap[tain and Senior Firefighter levels on SOPs, policies and procedures and equipment/apparatus purchases.

    There simply is no need for the interference of a union, and I stated, the majority of the career staff feel the same way.

    As far as the IAFF, I have seen thier anti-union feelings and efforts at the local level. You can say all you want that is the the locals, but it's still the union. Sorry, but I have no need and very little respect for the IAFF and what it stands for.
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  19. #159
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You call my anti-union feelings prejudices. i call them facts.
    Call them what you want. It doesn't change the validity of my statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Unions are destroying this country.
    Really? Can you point to one conservative policy from the last 30 years that has benefitted the middle class MORE than the upper 1% or corporate interests. What is obvious to those of us who have actually followed American history is that America was strongest when it had a vibrant middle class. Since we have seen conservatives wage open class warfare on organized labor we have seen a diminishing membership in labor with an accompanied squeezing of the middle class out of existence. The consequence being that America in general has suffered.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There is simply no need for a union at my combo department, and given the likely progression in leadership, i see no reason in the forseeable future as such.
    Things change. People change.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We are garunteed raises and promotional procedures by law. We have input on wage and benefit increases such as uniform allowances and certification incentive pay schedules. And we have a tremendous amount of inputat the Cap[tain and Senior Firefighter levels on SOPs, policies and procedures and equipment/apparatus purchases.
    And your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    There simply is no need for the interference of a union, and I stated, the majority of the career staff feel the same way.
    Things change, people change.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    As far as the IAFF, I have seen thier anti-union feelings and efforts at the local level. You can say all you want that is the the locals, but it's still the union. Sorry, but I have no need and very little respect for the IAFF and what it stands for.
    And I've seen vollies like you who want all the glamor of being a firefighter but certainly have no interest in doing the job or look for ways to avoid doing the job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You would no more quit if the Union came in than you turned down your gravy train Pub Ed job. You see LA, you are all talk and bluster until it somehow makes your situation better. You ranted and raved about the paid guys on your FD until YOU became one. Your job is SO important, and you are so busy, that you find time every day to be here pontificating on topics you have absolutely no direct knowledge of.

    Where exactly did I rant and rave about the paid guys until I became one? Paid members on this department have thier place. They are needed to perform daily admin, testing and maiantainence functions that the volunteers do not have the time for. That being said, our response is primarily a volunteer, not a career response, and the paid guys are in all reality, not needed fopr responses as the volunteer personnel could easily handle that. If ghat's ranting and raving, so be it.

    By the way, I am still waiting for you to respond to the fact that your Dad didn't follow work rules and then whined about his inability to discipline people. Funny how you completely dodged that...Says tons about your ignorance of Unions and once again your hypocrisy.
    My father did do his job when the situation required. that being said, in almost all cases the employees retained thier positions. That was generally the case with any supervisor that attempted to have employees fired. The union was able to enact rules and requirements that made it almost impossible.

    Sorta like civil service currently is here in LA.
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