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Thread: Union Thuggery in NJ

  1. #161
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You call my anti-union feelings prejudices. I call them facts.

    Facts about the Union? You wouldn't know facts regarding the IAFF if they bit you on your PAID GUY azz. Here's a fact for you, you FD pays what they pay, and gives the benefits they do fully aware of what the Union gets neighboring departments. So in order to prevent you from Unionizing they pay a close equivalent. So even though you aren't Union you reap the benefits of the Union. Whether you care to admit it or not.

    Unions are destroying companys with outlandish demands as well as this country.

    It couldn't be management that awards themseleves outlandish raises and golden parachutes as the businesses they supposedly manage fall into bankruptcy and those jobs are lost forever.

    There is simply no need for a union at my combo department, and given the likely progression in leadership, i see no reason in the forseeable future as such.

    Of couse not since you ride the wave of nearby Unions and their pay and benefits.

    We are garunteed raises and promotional procedures by law. We have input on wage and benefit increases such as uniform allowances and certification incentive pay schedules. And we have a tremendous amount of inputat the Cap[tain and Senior Firefighter levels on SOPs, policies and procedures and equipment/apparatus purchases.

    WOW!! Guaranteed raises despite the work ethic of the employees. You must throw up a little in your mouth everytime you cash a paycheck knowing that.

    There simply is no need for the interference of a union, and I stated, the majority of the career staff feel the same way.

    Again because you ride on the coat tails of nearby Union FDs. I would sure like to talk to those guys with out your self proclaimed "Ratting Guys Out" self being there. I wouldn't say much in front of you either...

    As far as the IAFF, I have seen thier anti-union feelings and efforts at the local level. You can say all you want that is the the locals, but it's still the union. Sorry, but I have no need and very little respect for the IAFF and what it stands for.

    And I have no need and NO respect for people that ride the wave of all the benefits that Unions have fought for and won over their history and then crap all over Unions. Sorry LA you sound more ignorant on this topic every time you post. Further whether you believe it or not many IAFF locals do not stop their members from volunteering, UNLESS it meets the criteria of a competing agency and simply beng a volunteer fire department does NOT meet that criteria, no matter how much you wish to believe it does.
    Still waiting for an answer on your Dad's failure to follow work rules in dsciplining subordinates and gettinghis azz handed to him over that.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...


  2. #162
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My father did do his job when the situation required. that being said, in almost all cases the employees retained thier positions. That was generally the case with any supervisor that attempted to have employees fired. The union was able to enact rules and requirements that made it almost impossible.

    Sorta like civil service currently is here in LA.
    Unionized employees can be terminated... I can think of 2 on the PD in my community and 2 from my FD that were terminated.

    All of the T's have to be crossed and the I's dotted in order to do it properly. If they are not, then it is the management that comes out of the situation with egg all over their faces.

    If your father argued his points the same way you do... let's just say the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
    FyredUp likes this.
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  3. #163
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Unionized employees can be terminated... I can think of 2 on the PD in my community and 2 from my FD that were terminated.

    All of the T's have to be crossed and the I's dotted in order to do it properly. If they are not, then it is the management that comes out of the situation with egg all over their faces.

    If your father argued his points the same way you do... let's just say the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
    That's it folks, the knock out punch has been delivered...Only a punch drunk old fighter would try to get back up after that solid blow to the head by the Chief!!
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  4. #164
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Ya, not IAFF, but I have a feeling not too many people here have ever dealt with NJEA. That is a union that leaves a bad taste in many mouths.

    Cost and rules of union labor in Atlantic City was major factor in FDIC cancelling their conferences there.

    I'm neutral here....I see places where unions are beneficial....I see places where unions are the issue.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I'm neutral here....I see places where unions are beneficial....I see places where unions are the issue.
    Just like some employers treat their employees well and reduce the need for unionization and others are the poster child for why unions were created and are still necessary.

  6. #166
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Well.. since Bobby hates the IAFF so much... and he perceives that career firefighters don't care about call and volunteer firefighters... I guess he won't be using this PowerPoint presentation of vehicle safety put together with DHS/FEMA...

    https://www.iaff.org/hs/evsp/home.html
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Well.. since Bobby hates the IAFF so much... and he perceives that career firefighters don't care about call and volunteer firefighters... I guess he won't be using this PowerPoint presentation of vehicle safety put together with DHS/FEMA...

    https://www.iaff.org/hs/evsp/home.html
    Probably not.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  8. #168
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Reading your answer just pegged the meter...

    Name:  idiot meter.jpg
Views: 144
Size:  63.7 KB
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #169
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Reading your answer just pegged the meter...
    One can't help but admire the ease with which he weaves the rope used to hang him. A remarkable talent.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  10. #170
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    One can't help but admire the ease with which he weaves the rope used to hang him. A remarkable talent.


    Between the fabrications, lies, misconceptions, and absolute BS made up stories at least the rope will be a strong 4 strand rope.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You call my anti-union feelings prejudices. I call them facts.
    While I have no doubt that you believe them to be facts, the fact is just believing something to be a fact doesn't make it one.

    Unions are destroying companys with outlandish demands as well as this country.
    Please provide proof of this.

    There is simply no need for a union at my combo department, and given the likely progression in leadership, i see no reason in the forseeable future as such.

    We are garunteed raises and promotional procedures by law. We have input on wage and benefit increases such as uniform allowances and certification incentive pay schedules. And we have a tremendous amount of inputat the Cap[tain and Senior Firefighter levels on SOPs, policies and procedures and equipment/apparatus purchases.
    That's great that you have a work environment like that, but not everybody's in that situation.

    There simply is no need for the interference of a union, and I stated, the majority of the career staff feel the same way.
    Do you realize that if you guys did go IAFF, the union guys that would be "interfering" would be the very same guys providing "input" now.

    As far as the IAFF, I have seen thier anti-union feelings and efforts at the local level.
    Yes, the IAFF is very anti-union.

    Proof read much?

    You can say all you want that is the the locals, but it's still the union. Sorry, but I have no need and very little respect for the IAFF and what it stands for.
    The IAFF stands for..........

    .....safe working conditions,
    .....proper staffing and responses to incidents,
    .....adequate training for the types of calls you have or could have,
    .....having the necessary equipment for the types of calls you have or could have,
    .....disciplinary process that is fair and equitable (i.e no favoritism),
    .....accountability for our employers (i.e. Mayors, City Managers, Council Members, etc.) and the decisions that they make regarding public safety.

    Just a few examples for you.

    Sorry to hear that you have no need or respect for these things and won't be standing by our side on them.

  12. #172
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    While I have no doubt that you believe them to be facts, the fact is just believing something to be a fact doesn't make it one.

    Please provide proof of this.

    That's great that you have a work environment like that, but not everybody's in that situation.

    Do you realize that if you guys did go IAFF, the union guys that would be "interfering" would be the very same guys providing "input" now.



    Yes, the IAFF is very anti-union.

    Proof read much?



    The IAFF stands for..........

    .....safe working conditions,
    .....proper staffing and responses to incidents,
    .....adequate training for the types of calls you have or could have,
    .....having the necessary equipment for the types of calls you have or could have,
    .....disciplinary process that is fair and equitable (i.e no favoritism),
    .....accountability for our employers (i.e. Mayors, City Managers, Council Members, etc.) and the decisions that they make regarding public safety.

    Just a few examples for you.

    Sorry to hear that you have no need or respect for these things and won't be standing by our side on them.
    discipline that is fair and does not allow favoritism- you know, the kind that is extended to the career staff that is encouraged to show up and work for free off-duty.........
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Reading your answer just pegged the meter...

    Attachment 22545
    Why is that?

    I have a couple of driving programs that I use already, and I like them.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #174
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why is that?

    I have a couple of driving programs that I use already, and I like them.
    Do those including stopping at green lights?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Do those including stopping at green lights?


    It certainly includes reducing speed at all green lights , and at times, slowing down significantlty at green lights at intersections in your district with a history of vehicles running the red, as well as coming to a full and complete stop at all red lights.

    There is no shame in taking your time to get to an incident.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  16. #176
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Do those including stopping at green lights?
    Who knows...but I bet they include driving by children trapped in burning cars without stopping.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Who knows...but I bet they include driving by children trapped in burning cars without stopping.
    Yup. Personal choices.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #178
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    I've had the "luxury" of seeing both sides of this, and neither one is completely right. My first chief's job was in a right to work state where the unions were basically castrated. The Mayor continually ordered me to do things that violated the bargaining contract. When I'd point that out he'd just shrug his shoulders and say, "So what? They'll file a grievance and I'll deny it. They're too poor to take us to court." He was right, and I saw it play out time and time again. What this resulted in was a very angry work group (and rightfully so) that was always egging for a fight and the most horrible morale I've ever seen in a department. This wasn't just a rogue Mayor being a jerk either, I saw this same sort of story play out at three other nearby locals during my tenure.

    Flash forward to now where I work in a very labor friendly state. We have binding arbitration. We as an employer can be ordered to give pay raises based simply on what everyone else is paying. It doesn't matter if those other cities are in better financial shape than we are or if paying the increase would cause us to have to lay off other city employees. I can't change any workplace rule, policy, or implement anything remotely resembling a money saving measure, without asking the union for permission. Most of the time they're pretty good about it, but if they want to bow their necks, they can stop any initiative dead in its tracks.

    Personally I dislike both extremes. But with that being said I haven't seen a perfect alternative yet either. The first method you have fairly healthy budgets (since the guys were paid horribly) with a constantly agitated work group and the second method you have guys who are pretty happy overall but municipal budgets that are on the verge of collapsing all the while the union guys are shouting for more. Take your pick.
    Last edited by Chief_Roy; 11-27-2012 at 02:47 PM.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yup. Personal choices.
    I have to admit. At least you're consistent.
    rm1524 likes this.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Everything you mentioned (except for your department incentive) is because of the hard work of THE LOUISIANIA PROFESIONAL FIREFIGHTERS ASSISIATION. Every benefit comes under fire at the legislature and we have to work our *** off to keep them but you wouldn't know anything about that would you?? ??
    Shut the nozzle stupid, thats' smoke not fire!

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