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Thread: 2" v.s 1.75" attack lines/ crosslays

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    Default 2" v.s 1.75" attack lines/ crosslays

    What is everyones opinions of the 2" attack lines versus the 1 3/4" lines. I personally have not had any experience with 2" lines, I have heard good things about them I just want to find out if some things are true.
    1) I heard they are just as flexible as 1.75" lines. Is this true?
    2) I heard they flow about the same as 2.5" lines.

    So in the end do you really get the flow of a 2.5" and the flexibility of a 1.75"?

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    [QUOTE=Ktstull;1347240]What is everyones opinions of the 2" attack lines versus the 1 3/4" lines. I personally have not had any experience with 2" lines, I have heard good things about them I just want to find out if some things are true.
    1) I heard they are just as flexible as 1.75" lines. Is this true? Absolutely true, we generally move them with 3 firefighters but in a pinch 2 can and do move 2 inch hose lines.
    2) I heard they flow about the same as 2.5" lines. We actually flow more with our 2 inch lines than most FDs flow with their 2 1/2s. We use a 1 1/4 inch smoothbore slug behind our combo nozzle and we flow 300 gpm at around 42 psi nozzle pressure.

    So in the end do you really get the flow of a 2.5" and the flexibility of a 1.75"? In our case I would say absolutely Yes, we do. We have a 200 gpm at 75 psi combo tip on the 1 1/4 inch slug tip. We underpump it initially to get 160 gpm at 55 psi NP, we of course cn go to 200 gpm at 75 psi NP, or dump the cmbo tip for the slug and can get 300 gpm at 42 psi NP. We never make the mistake of pulling the wrong line.[/QUOTE]

    It works for us because we experimented with 2 inch hose before we went hook line and sinker into it. We don't carry any 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 inch hose, we are exclusively 2 inch for ALL handline ops.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 11-09-2012 at 12:04 AM.
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    Both.

    Most fires don't need that much water. Room and contents fires were put out for decades with 1 1/2" hose. With 1 3/4" you get a lot more water and still have the manueverability. You can still have 2" for those bigger fires. And I still like having 2 1/2" as well. More tools for the tool box. On my fulltime truck we have a 1 1/2" trashline, 2- 1 3/4" preconnected lines, 1- 2" preconnect, 500' of 2 1/2" with a straight tip, and 500' of 3" which has a gated wye, but also can be connected to a portable masterstream. Just look at what kind of needs you have in your run areas and equip yourself with the tools you need to handle that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Both.

    Most fires don't need that much water. Room and contents fires were put out for decades with 1 1/2" hose. With 1 3/4" you get a lot more water and still have the manueverability. You can still have 2" for those bigger fires. And I still like having 2 1/2" as well. More tools for the tool box. On my fulltime truck we have a 1 1/2" trashline, 2- 1 3/4" preconnected lines, 1- 2" preconnect, 500' of 2 1/2" with a straight tip, and 500' of 3" which has a gated wye, but also can be connected to a portable masterstream. Just look at what kind of needs you have in your run areas and equip yourself with the tools you need to handle that.
    Like I said my #1 POC FD uses 2 inch hose exclusively for handlines. We don't have to worry about whether to grab the 1 1/2, 1 3/4 or the 2 1/2 because our one size does it all for us. I never said everyone should do what we do, but we did experiment with it, test the flows with a calibrated flow meter, and it met the needs we had at the time. We had trouble with staffing and many times the first line was all we had for a significant time so we needed a heavy hitting line that could be handled by 2, and our set-up met our needs.

    Look at your set-up, you have 5 sizes of hose to meet your attack needs. We carry 3 sizes total and can do everything you do. 2 inch for all of our handlines, 3 inch for extending lines, feeding portable deluges, or feeding standpipes, and 5 inch for supply. We have 200 and 300 foot pre-connects, 2-500 foot lines, one with a gated wye and a 100 foot 2 inch line, and the other left open for whatever other need we may have. I am not saying what you do is wrong, but what we do works for us and that is all that matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Like I said my #1 POC FD uses 2 inch hose exclusively for handlines. We don't have to worry about whether to grab the 1 1/2, 1 3/4 or the 2 1/2 because our one size does it all for us. I never said everyone should do what we do, but we did experiment with it, test the flows with a calibrated flow meter, and it met the needs we had at the time. We had trouble with staffing and many times the first line was all we had for a significant time so we needed a heavy hitting line that could be handled by 2, and our set-up met our needs.

    Look at your set-up, you have 5 sizes of hose to meet your attack needs. We carry 3 sizes total and can do everything you do. 2 inch for all of our handlines, 3 inch for extending lines, feeding portable deluges, or feeding standpipes, and 5 inch for supply. We have 200 and 300 foot pre-connects, 2-500 foot lines, one with a gated wye and a 100 foot 2 inch line, and the other left open for whatever other need we may have. I am not saying what you do is wrong, but what we do works for us and that is all that matters.
    I understand the need for a POC dept to use the KISS method, I'm on one as well. I like having more tools in the toolbox if I can, and my fulltime FD does that in regards to hose. If all you have is a framing hammer and you need to drive some tacks, you just pound lighter, it still works. (heh, heh, timely analogy, I actually did that today!) It all comes down to knowing how to use what you got, what it can and can't do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    If all you have is a framing hammer and you need to drive some tacks, you just pound lighter, it still works.
    Nah, bash the hell out of it like it's a 16 penny nail! lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    I understand the need for a POC dept to use the KISS method, I'm on one as well. I like having more tools in the toolbox if I can, and my fulltime FD does that in regards to hose. If all you have is a framing hammer and you need to drive some tacks, you just pound lighter, it still works. (heh, heh, timely analogy, I actually did that today!) It all comes down to knowing how to use what you got, what it can and can't do.
    But explain to me what you can do with your multiple hose sizes that we can't do with just 2 inch?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    Nah, bash the hell out of it like it's a 16 penny nail! lol
    Dude you would use a 12 pound maul!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Dude you would use a 12 pound maul!!

    I'd bet he learned that from his dad!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    I'd bet he learned that from his dad!!!!
    Only if the nail p!ssed me off!!
    Last edited by FyredUp; 11-11-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Dude you would use a 12 pound maul!!
    I've pounded tacks in to hang a picture up with one of my 3lb mauls before... What's your point? lol
    "A fire department that writes off civilians faster than an express line of 6 reasons or less is not progressive, it's dangerous, because it's run by fear. Fear does not save lives, it endangers them." -- Lt. Ray McCormack FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
    I've pounded tacks in to hang a picture up with one of my 3lb mauls before... What's your point? lol
    Right tool for the job!!
    Last edited by FyredUp; 11-11-2012 at 03:13 PM.
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    Well... Hydraulics, physics and math still apply to all hose and orifices (nozzles). Anything you can flow with one size can be flowed mechanically "easier" with a larger size while sacrificing the relative ease. Thus when it comes down to it, sizes does matter.

    As for naming anything multiple hose sizes can do better than one (in this case 2"): Flow more water. We can deploy and flow 1.75" with a single firefighter on the line flowing a decent 180 gpm firestream that handles most private dwelling room(s) fires. Our 2.5" flows 325 gpm off the bed and can easily flow a mini-monitor at 400-500 gpm. Heck, we've used 1.75" to flow a Vindicator at 325 gpm with 2 firefighters,though it won't steer well, alas it's really not the right tool set-up for the job. Can do and should do or best practice are not always the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Well... Hydraulics, physics and math still apply to all hose and orifices (nozzles). Anything you can flow with one size can be flowed mechanically "easier" with a larger size while sacrificing the relative ease. Thus when it comes down to it, sizes does matter.

    As for naming anything multiple hose sizes can do better than one (in this case 2"): Flow more water. We can deploy and flow 1.75" with a single firefighter on the line flowing a decent 180 gpm firestream that handles most private dwelling room(s) fires. Our 2.5" flows 325 gpm off the bed and can easily flow a mini-monitor at 400-500 gpm. Heck, we've used 1.75" to flow a Vindicator at 325 gpm with 2 firefighters,though it won't steer well, alas it's really not the right tool set-up for the job. Can do and should do or best practice are not always the same.
    We can pull a 2 inch with one firefighter and flow from 160 to 300 gpm with that one firefghter if need be, obviously not advancing at the higher flows with one firefighter.. We can do this to 300 feet using preconnects of 200 and 300 feet. If we need to go further we pull our apartment line that is 100 feet of 2 inch hooked to 500 feet of 3 inch. If we need to feed a deluge or an FDC we have another bed of 500 feet of 3 inch.

    So we can do what you do, just in a different way. We went to the single size attack line back in the day when we had VERY limited initial staffing for fires. I am NOT saying you should change to what we do. We did a ton of research, experimenting with this set-up, testing different nozzles and layouts, until we decided on what we ended up with. After over a decade there is no clamor for change because it works for us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    But explain to me what you can do with your multiple hose sizes that we can't do with just 2 inch?
    We can put the appropriate amount of water on the fire. I don't need a 2"-200' line to put out a 300 gallon home dumpster, I can use the 100' 1 1/2 line on the bumper. And if I need a 2 1/2", I don't have to jack up the pressure to get the same flow out of a 2". It's what works for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    We can put the appropriate amount of water on the fire. I don't need a 2"-200' line to put out a 300 gallon home dumpster, I can use the 100' 1 1/2 line on the bumper. And if I need a 2 1/2", I don't have to jack up the pressure to get the same flow out of a 2". It's what works for us.
    And I have made it clear from the beginning that I don't expect anyone to change to what we do. But it seems that asking questions of why you need 5 sizes of hose leads to you questioning what we do.

    The way our front crosslays are loaded we can pull off 100 feet break the coupling and connect it to a side discharge, or pull a high rise pack and hook that 100 feet to a discharge. Can we flow 100 gpm through our 2 inch line? Well, of course we can. Can we flow 300 gpm though our 2 inch lines? Well of course we can. The slight pressure increase to make it work is worth it to us to have a multi-purpose line.

    You like to have multiple hose sizes for each task, I am cool with that. We do multiple tasks with one hoseline and it works, and has worked for us, for over a decade. It is really that simple to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And I have made it clear from the beginning that I don't expect anyone to change to what we do. But it seems that asking questions of why you need 5 sizes of hose leads to you questioning what we do.

    The way our front crosslays are loaded we can pull off 100 feet break the coupling and connect it to a side discharge, or pull a high rise pack and hook that 100 feet to a discharge. Can we flow 100 gpm through our 2 inch line? Well, of course we can. Can we flow 300 gpm though our 2 inch lines? Well of course we can. The slight pressure increase to make it work is worth it to us to have a multi-purpose line.

    You like to have multiple hose sizes for each task, I am cool with that. We do multiple tasks with one hoseline and it works, and has worked for us, for over a decade. It is really that simple to me.
    I should also add that it's not just the gpm factor, it's also the layout of most of the city. Most of it has been built after WWII, so it's not like a lot of the east coast or Chicago with tight streets, and 3 floor walk ups. We typically don't have to hump a lot of hose to get to the seat of the fire, our preconnects work probably 90% of the time, excluding commercial fires. And I'm not knocking your setup either, just describing what we do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Like I said my #1 POC FD uses 2 inch hose exclusively for handlines. We don't have to worry about whether to grab the 1 1/2, 1 3/4 or the 2 1/2 because our one size does it all for us. I never said everyone should do what we do, but we did experiment with it, test the flows with a calibrated flow meter, and it met the needs we had at the time.
    us too. I asked about it when I first started, and I was told we had 2 inch hose, 3 inch and 5 inch. all attack lines were 2 inch, 3 in was for more water and blitz fires, and 5 was for supply. we also carried booster lines for minor rubish or brush fires.

    just as easy to use as the 1.75, with more GPM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Well... Hydraulics, physics and math still apply to all hose and orifices (nozzles). Anything you can flow with one size can be flowed mechanically "easier" with a larger size while sacrificing the relative ease. Thus when it comes down to it, sizes does matter.
    Exactly. Although I can see how one can be led to believe that by using 2" attack hose all the time, you can "never pull the wrong line", I would say that you may never pull the right one.

    IMO, part of being professional is using what you need to handle the situation without blowing your wad every time. You could also argue that all you really need is supply line and deck guns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Exactly. Although I can see how one can be led to believe that by using 2" attack hose all the time, you can "never pull the wrong line", I would say that you may never pull the right one.

    I am led to believe nothing. I have said in OUR situation, in OUR area, with OUR fire load, with OUR personnel, and OUR equipment this works for us and has worked for over a decade. If we have a hoseline capable of flowing from 160 to 200 gpm with a combination nozzle, and 300 gpm with the slug tip underneath, out to 300 feet with pre-connects, and to over 600 feet with 3 inch hose extending the line how is it that we can pull the wrong line?

    Let me ask you this...What is the nozzle gpm capability for your 2 1/2 inch lines? Because most often we are finding we flow more with our 2 inch than many departments flow with 2 1/2 inch hose.


    IMO, part of being professional is using what you need to handle the situation without blowing your wad every time. You could also argue that all you really need is supply line and deck guns.

    The funniest part of this entire topic is how many people have chosen to attack what my FD does and all I did was come here and try to answer the OP's original question. I have attacked no one's methods of having to carry 1 3/4 inch and 2 1/2 inch hose. You find it necessary to attack my FDs professionalism, fine, I won't go down that road with you because you know exactly jack squat about my FD and it's level of professionalism. Tell me how we blow our wad every time if we have flows as low as a standard 1 3/4 should have as a minimum interior fire attack GPM? Tell me how being able to flow from a 1 3/4 inch line to a 2 1/2 inch line with one hose size is a bad thing? 2 inch is lighter, faster and easier to advance and can give me the flow of a 2 1/2...WOW!! That does sound horrible now that i read it!! WHAT WERE WE THINKING?? Oh yeah, that it is works for us and you don't have to like it.
    Free your mind there is a great big world outside of Memphis...
    Last edited by FyredUp; 11-20-2012 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Both.

    Most fires don't need that much water. Room and contents fires were put out for decades with 1 1/2" hose.
    Shucks, a lot were put out with booster reels!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Free your mind there is a great ig world outside of Memphis...
    But there's not nearly as much barbecue there, and I don't want to be part of a world like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF View Post
    Shucks, a lot were put out with booster reels!
    Not today, thank you very much!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Not today, thank you very much!!
    Yes, our one lonely little booster reel is quite handy for brush fires and cleaning up tools, and that is pretty much it.
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    Thumbs up Well...........

    When I started in 1958, I had two Choices, 1 inch Booster line or 2 1/2 inch line. I got a lot of Fire with that one inch in the first year of using it, then we got a new Engine, and our first 1 1/2........ We bought our last Booster reel in 1965, except for a garden hose size reel on the several brush rigs after that..... We moved up to 2 inch in the mid 70s, but kept the 1 1/2 for most of the work. Today the "Fire" Engine runs with a split bed of 2,000ft of 3 inch, a dead load of 600 ft of 2 1/2 with a 200 ft "Bundle Load" of 1 1/2 on top of that, connected to a gated wye. A 200 ft 1 1/2, a 250 1 1/2, a 400 ft 1 1/2 and a 250 2 inch line are all preconnected on the rear. The right side running board box has a 150ft 1 1/2 preconnect and the front bumper has 150 ft of 1 1/2 preconnected. There are no crosslays. Standpipe bags carry a 100 ft. 1 1/2 line and accessories, and a second bag has 300 ft of 1 inch Forestry hose and accessories. The "Rescue" Engine has the same front bumper line and supply line, along with 2 200ft 1 1/2 lines in crosslays over the Pump, a 250 and 400 1 1/2 lines and a 250 ft 2 inch line all off the back......

    My personal preference?? 1, 2, and 3 inch. Forget the !/2s and the 3/4s..........
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